How long did pre-MK1 stock last in service...

[balders]

This is a topic that interests me. How long did all the old stuff last? Staniers, Hawksworth, Collett,Bulleid, Thompson and Gresley design, into the 70's?

 

I know that a fair bit of non-passenger carrying stock (BG's etc) from pre-nationalisation lasted well int the 70's and eary 80's into blue and blue/grey, and there are some great photo's to be found on a web trawl. And some Gresley buffet cars lasted into blue/grey, but try as I can I'm struggling to find any photo's of other makes in use.

 

I read that some of the Stanier stock was ETH converted etc.

 

Also, there seems to be little info or photographic stuff around on the disposal of such old stock (or am I not looking in the right places?) Must have been a fairly large undertaking, although nowhere near as complex as locomotive disposal.

 

Thanks

 

Guy

[Gwiwer]

Remember also the fairly large fleet of SR emu stock of pre-war designs which lasted well into the 1970s. 2BIL, 2HAL, 4SUB, 4COR, 4BUF, 4GRI and 5BEL were all later survivors though other types lasted until the very late 1960s such as the 4LAV's. Many of these units made it into all-blue while the 5BEL units were repainted from Umber / Cream into Blue / Grey

 

Gresley and Thompson buffets made it into blue/grey and were running on Portsmouth - Cardiff (Gresley W9135E), Manchester - Harwich (Gresley E9124E?; I recall some debate suggests this was E9131E) and Kings Cross- Cambridge (Thompson E1705/6E) services in their final days around 1971. The Metro-Cammell Pullmans on the ECML business trains also gained their own version of blue-grey and ran until replaced by 100mph Mk2 stock (and later by HST sets) when their "Pullman" trains became the "Executive" family.

 

The WCML featured the Manchester / Liverpool Pullman sets until around the same time and there were LMS-design sleepers with offset end gangways running until about 1972 which also gained blue-grey livery and were numbered in the M6xxM series

[Oldddudders]

As far as the Southern is concerned, Gwiwer has summarised the electric stock admirably, but the death of steam on the former LSWR main line to Bournemouth in July 1967 was the last straw for the loco-hauled Bulleids, and these were all gone by the next year. As you note, the NPCCS (I'm never quite sure why people call it NPCS - the term used in BR documentation was Non-Passenger-Carrying Coaching Stock) had much greater longevity, despite some having design origins from Pre-Grouping days! This may not be unrelated to the nature of the Parcels Business, which had no reason to splash out on glitzy new vans when the old faithfuls were still affordably maintained - if a bit grubby and rattly. The customer did not complain!

[Adrian Wintle]

I'm never quite sure why people call it NPCS - the term used in BR documentation was Non-Passenger-Carrying Coaching Stock

 

I think it is because everybody except BR seems to have called it Non-Passenger Coaching Stock (NPCS).

 

Back on topic - apparently at least one of the Hawksworth Sleeper Firsts ended its life in corporate blue/grey.

 

Adrian

[Miss Prism]

Two Hawksworth 3rd coaches, numbers 1719 and 2135, received blue/grey in 1966. Here's one of them in early 1967. (I don't think they lasted much beyond the end of 1967 though.)

 

http://freepages.nostalgia.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cyberheritage/oldy2.jpg

[Pennine MC]

 

Also, there seems to be little info or photographic stuff around on the disposal of such old stock (or am I not looking in the right places?)

 

 

I dunno, it comes up every other month on here

 

The last Gresley buffet thread is here. In there, you should find a link to Robert Carroll's Yahoo group on BR coaches, which will contain a lot more info, plus he's also done several article in ModelRai over the last few years on similar subjects

 

, but the death of steam on the former LSWR main line to Bournemouth in July 1967 was the last straw for the loco-hauled Bulleids, and these were all gone by the next year

 

I'm pretty sure the TSOs transferred to the ER and ScR lasted a year or two longer, possibly just into 1970 - the date will I'm sure be in a previous thread

 

Two Hawksworth 3rd coaches, numbers 1719 and 2135, received blue/grey in 1966. Here's one of them in early 1967. (I don't think they lasted much beyond the end of 1967 though.)

 

 

There was a third coach of the same type (this also comes up and gets corrected every time )

 

I think the best dates we've come up with for other 'ordinary' day coaches are Gresleys 1964/65, Thompsons 1968/69, and Staniers 1969/70, with the latter being the only ones to acquire blue/grey (other than as just noted)

[Arpleymodeller]

There was Stanier stock running on the London Midland Region until the mid 70s I believe...

[Ian J.]

Don't forget of course that many coaches of goodness knows what vintages survived in departmental use. I know that's not the gist of the OP, but still they were in service of sorts.

[DavidBelcher]

Stanier and Thompson sleeping cars lasted a few years longer into the 70s than their day-stock equivalents. In the former case, some were probably the last 12-wheel coaches running in regular timetabled service.

 

David

[pete_mcfarlane]

According to Mike King's book on SR coaches, two of the Maunsell nondescript brake coaches (7920/3) survived until about 1973/4 as ambulance coaches carrying (presumably Irish) pilgrims to Dover for onward travel to Lourdes.

 

They apparently carried blue and grey, but I've never seen a photo. the same book has photos of the Maunsell TPO stock which lasted until the late 1970s.

[RANGERS]

The last of the LMS passenger carrying stock were the 12w Sleepers, one went to the North Norfolk Railway on withdrawl in 1976 - 77 in Blue Grey. Not sure whether it's still there, but it was ETH fitted. Mention made previously of offset gangways on LMS sleepers but this seems unlikely at this point.

[balders]

Many thanks for the excellent replies!

 

I guess disposal for a lot of the older stock went hand in hand with the demise of steam and incredible gluttony of the yards for steel.

 

Thanks for the Gresley link, i'm off to have a read...... :icon_thumbsup2:

[Pennine MC]

The last of the LMS passenger carrying stock were the 12w Sleepers, one went to the North Norfolk Railway on withdrawl in 1976 - 77 in Blue Grey.

 

I think the very last ones were the 8 wheelers (the seconds), with the 12 wheel 1st class cars going a few years earlier

 

According to Mike King's book on SR coaches, two of the Maunsell nondescript brake coaches (7920/3) survived until about 1973/4 as ambulance coaches carrying (presumably Irish) pilgrims to Dover for onward travel to Lourdes.

 

They apparently carried blue and grey, but I've never seen a photo.

 

This is interesting - I wonder what arrangement they were retained under? They certainly dont appear in the 1970s RCTS coaching stock books as capital stock

[balders]

I think the very last ones were the 8 wheelers (the seconds), with the 12 wheel 1st class cars going a few years earlier

 

Wow. There is some great stuff out there! Just needed the prompt in the right direction!

 

Thanks all. :icon_thumbsup2:

[balders]

Would this be the Maunsell Ambo coach?? S7923S, Stewarts Lane 22-10-73 (courtesy of Keith on the Yahoo group)

[pete_mcfarlane]

Would this be the Maunsell Ambo coach?? S7923S, Stewarts Lane 22-10-73 (courtesy of Keith on the Yahoo group)

Thanks for that. I looks like it was quite heavily modified (which rules out my brief idea of painting a Roxey one in B&G). The Mike King book says that they lived at Stewart's Lane when not in traffic.

 

The Bluebell have anotherthat never made it to Blue and grey.

[johnw1]

I think the very last ones were the 8 wheelers (the seconds), with the 12 wheel 1st class cars going a few years earlier

 

M614M at Bedford 1976

http://pics-by-john.photoblog.org.uk/p48441410.html

[Fat Controller]

Two Hawksworth 3rd coaches, numbers 1719 and 2135, received blue/grey in 1966. Here's one of them in early 1967. (I don't think they lasted much beyond the end of 1967 though.)

 

http://freepages.nostalgia.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cyberheritage/oldy2.jpg

In 1967, at one was still being used to strengthen the Cornish Riviera Express- there's a photo of it immediately behind the loco in 'Heyday of the Warships'. A year or two afterwards, I saw one in a Bristol-bound train that we crossed at Yeovil Pen Mill whilst on a family jaunt to Weymouth.

[Mallard60022]

As far as the Southern is concerned, Gwiwer has summarised the electric stock admirably, but the death of steam on the former LSWR main line to Bournemouth in July 1967 was the last straw for the loco-hauled Bulleids, and these were all gone by the next year. As you note, the NPCCS (I'm never quite sure why people call it NPCS - the term used in BR documentation was Non-Passenger-Carrying Coaching Stock) had much greater longevity, despite some having design origins from Pre-Grouping days! This may not be unrelated to the nature of the Parcels Business, which had no reason to splash out on glitzy new vans when the old faithfuls were still affordably maintained - if a bit grubby and rattly. The customer did not complain!

 

What a shame!

Why the SR did away with them so quickly on the Western Division is a bit of a mystery (WR control?); I suppose they liked their Mk1s and Bulleids needed too much looking after?

 

Quite a few Bulleids that had been transferred to other regions lasted (well, were not withdrawn until) 1969.

36E

[DavidBelcher]

 

What a shame!

Why the SR did away with them so quickly on the Western Division is a bit of a mystery (WR control?); I suppose they liked their Mk1s and Bulleids needed too much looking after?

 

Quite a few Bulleids that had been transferred to other regions lasted (well, were not withdrawn until) 1969.

36E

 

I'm sure I've read that early batches of Bulleids, like the first Mk1 builds, had body panel rust problems which didn't help their cause. Also the riding could be quite rough, which may be down to the shorter wheelbase SR bogie compared with B1s/B4s/Commonwealths. After transfer of lines west of Salisbury to the WR, SR green-liveried stock of pre and post nationalisation design still seems to have been used on the Exeter run even though Western hydraulics provided the motive power. The demise of the Bulleids was no doubt precipitated by the Bournemouth electrification; rather than new-build stock, much of it - 4-Vep sets and Rep motored coaches aside - was converted LHCS [1] which came from the ScR and ER in exchange for 2nd-hand Bulleids, although why the SR's own Mk1s couldn't have been used is a puzzle.

 

David

 

[1] Although the later 1970s Rep builds came brand-new from York Works rather than being converted stock.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Have we mentioned the infamous Quad-Arts yet? OK, they 'only' made it to 1967, but whatever the build dates of the final survivors they were a pre-group design, with a 'cram'em in' capacity that our present TOCs would shed tears of joy for.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Why the SR did away with them so quickly on the Western Division is a bit of a mystery (WR control?); I suppose they liked their Mk1s and Bulleids needed too much looking after?

No mystery - the bodies were wooden framed and not as crash worthy as the all steel Mk1/2 stock. So BR got rid of them as soon as it could.

[30851]

I always wonder when I see this discussion of why the various EMU's are not included - for example, the last LMS passenger stock would be the Wirral Units (withdrawn mid 80's) I believe, the last LNER stock would be the Hadfield units (withdrawn 1984). And the winner should be Mr Bulleid with the 4 EPBs (last widthdrawn 1995) - these having the added bonus of being built on frames from the 1920's.

 

Of course you could also consider the 1938 stock still running on the Isle of Wight....

 

 

Rob

[DavidB-AU]

There was a 1920 LNWR saloon in regular use on the Royal Train until 1983 and not formally withdrawn until 1990.

 

You could also consider the VSOE Pullmans.

 

Speaking of which, a Departmental Gresley brake third ADE320645 (ex-E16847E) passed into EWS ownership and was at York Leeman Road until about 3 years ago. It was bought by VSOE for the frame and bogies, and they donated the body panels to the LNER Coach Association.

 

Cheers

David

[phil-b259]

An important consideration for the southern region is that its native diesel classes were only equipped with electric train heating apparatus. Therefore after the demise of steam, bullied stock as well as a large proportion of Mk1 stock was useless for anything except summer duties so after the Bournemouth electrification went live there was a concerted effort to swap steam heated Bulleid & Steam heat only MK1s for ETH equipped versions.