Nearholmer Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Penrith Wise purchase. But, do remember the caveat that I gave earlier, in that a lot more information about what happened pre-1900 had been ferreted-out since it was published. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 While I agree that Brian Webb's book is an excellent resource (as are his other books and "Loco Profile" series), it is of course limited in its scope by being restricted to British locomotives. Much of the development of main-line diesel locomotives took place outside the UK. Perhaps it's because of our parochiality, but it often means turning to foreign language books and company histories to fill in the gaps. The double locomotives discussed for France and Romania were far from being isolated examples. In 1941, Krupp delivered two Do+Do locomotives to the German military (commissioned in 1939), both eventually passing into DB ownership and lasting until the late 'sixties/early 'seventies. Sadly, I don't think either has survived. https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php%3F17,5804155,page%3Dall&prev=search Frichs of Denmark were early pioneers of diesel traction, production starting in 1929 and supplying many locomotives to Denmark's numerous private railways from the 'thirties onward. The attached photo is of the preserved Mx 132 in rather cramped conditions of the railway museum at Odense. This was one of a pair of 2D2 locomotives built for the DSB in 1932. Apart from shunters, Frichs didn't build any further diesels for DSB until the early 1950s. The DSB Mx 131 and 132 were of a similar design (and wheel arrangement) as a batch of six locomotives supplied to the metre-gauge railways of Thailand (Siam at that time) in the same year. Frichs also built a 2D+D2 double locomotive for Thailand. (I believe some of the early Frichs locomotives still survive in Thailand, I think the last I heard was that some were "stored" near to Bang Sue): https://www.flickr.com/photos/barang_shkoot/14010995536 Surely a candidate for proper preservation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted February 5, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2016 Something to keep in mind about Denmark is that the Danish Burmeister & Wain Company were amongst the great pioneers in terms of practical application of diesel engines and Denmark has a long and proud history of leading diesel engine development. MANs large two stroke engine business is still based in Denmark, they bought B&W's engine business and whilst their 4S medium speed engine centre is Augsburg they retained B&W as their large 2S centre of excellence still based in Denmark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 EddieB Absolutely spot on, Sir! To get an overall picture of the development of i.c. rail traction, it is necessary to delve into books and papers from, at bare minimum, Germany, USA, Britain, and France, with a bit of Scandinavia and Italy too. For Electric Traction, Prof Duffy provides a single volume, bringing together a global view of the history, but, to the best of my knowledge, and after a lot of delving, I don't believe there is such a single book for i.c.. There is one each for USA, Germany (with some bits of Scandinavia thrown in), and Britain (Webb), each of which studiously ignores the rest of the world! I do have an early 1930s book by a Dutch professor (he wrote in English, hurrah!!!), which provides a nearly comprehensive survey of i.c. rail traction across the world up to that date, but after that, it's "every country for itself". Kevin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Can anyone recommend a book for the US? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) Kirkland, Dawn of the Diesel Age. Very good on the early years, and good photos of the prototypes that led to the AGEIR locos. But, expensive! Solomon, The American Diesel Locomotive. Cheaper, but by no means as good, Kirkland having been his main source for the really interesting stuff, I suspect. K Edited February 5, 2016 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Thank you for that. The only copy of 'Dawn of the Diesel Age' I could find was $68 plus postage so I have bought copy of the Soloman for $2.99! Mind you the postage is $18! The package is expected to arrive between the first week of March and the first week of April. Looking forward to it but not to much! Regards Edited February 6, 2016 by PenrithBeacon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 Oh, it is pretty good, just no as good. K 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted February 6, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2016 The book "From Steam to Diesel: Managerial Customs and Organizational Capabilities in the Twentieth-century American Locomotive Industry" by Albert Churella is worth reading although it may be a more appropriate book for the modernisation diesel thread. Albert Churella is also writing what promises to be the definitive history of the Pennsylvania RR, I have volume 1 and am eagerly awaiting volume 2. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Can anyone recommend a book for the US? Regards Not the US as a whole but I found "Southern Pacific Dieselization" (PFM) by John Bonds Garmany to be very interesting. It was the first book I ever read that showed how diesel traction had developed (elsewhere) such a long time before British Rail ever got around to it. Cheers, John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urthra Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 I have recently been looking at diesel designs from the later part of the period, and concentrating on UK origins. Its very enlightening how many companies were exporting diesel locos or substantial parts for them, in the 30's and onwards. I've found references on the derbysulzers.com site to Egypt, India, and Brazil. There were also a variety of designs on the drawing board for the prenationalisation rail companies. (And in operation.) I would love to see someone build a selection of these designs as models! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Interesting comment about American business attitudes and crankshafts. From experience of American engineering on rigs, cars and motorcycles, that sounds quite likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railsquid Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Per happenstance stumbled across this video, may or may not be interesting: 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 One of the earliest operation of a diesel locomotive in the UK was with a rather neat little 0-4-0 diesel with hydrostatic (hydraulic) transmission built by Graz (Austria). It was tested on the Great Eastern section of the LNER in 1924, when It briefly ran trials between Tottenham and Cambridge with a three and a four-coach train. The locomotive barely warrants a paragraph in the relevant RCTS "green book" (10A, but there is an illustration of it heading a rake of ex-GER bogie stock at Broxbourne). A maker's photo appears in "50 Jahre Diesellokomotiven" (Stockklausner, 1963). Accounts of the trial runs were given in Railway Magazine (September 1924) and GER Magazine (October 1924). The locomotive returned to Europe and was shown at a transport exhibition in Munich in 1925, but I cannot find what happened to it subsequently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 Eddie I think it went into service with one of the Austrian Railways - I've got a very detailed article about it in a German magazine of the period, which includes pictures of it pulling test trains of ancient-looking LNER stock. Will try to check later today. I'm surprised that no LNER fan eve ft seems to have built and run a model of it, but maybe it is effectively forgotten. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 8, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2016 How about this baby..? http://www.derbysulzers.com/sncf262BD1.html Looking at the body shape, if the French had separated the twin power cars. They could have inserted dining cars in between and had their own version of Blue Pullmans. Perhaps they would have rode better! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Finding anything more about the Graz locomotive would be very interesting, Kevin. In the meantime, I've managed to find the same maker's photo on the web: http://www.eisenbahn-bilder.com/db/details.php?image_id=37545 (In case anyone thinks we were making it up!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted February 8, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2016 Eddie I think it went into service with one of the Austrian Railways - I've got a very detailed article about it in a German magazine of the period, which includes pictures of it pulling test trains of ancient-looking LNER stock. Will try to check later today. I'm surprised that no LNER fan eve ft seems to have built and run a model of it, but maybe it is effectively forgotten. Kevin I was unaware of its existence until an article appeared in 'Backtrack' a few years ago. Finding anything more about the Graz locomotive would be very interesting, Kevin. In the meantime, I've managed to find the same maker's photo on the web: http://www.eisenbahn-bilder.com/db/details.php?image_id=37545 (In case anyone thinks we were making it up!) IIRC that looks slightly different to the one illustrated in 'Backtrack' but it could well be the same locomotive before/after a rebuild. There was also a drawing of the locomotive in Backtrack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) I'm going by (fragile) memory, until I dig out the article, but if it isn't the same loco, then it is certainly very similar. An Austrian forum talks about it being a single prototype,which was also tried on a lokalbahn in Austria. That with the photos in the article, some of which don't look LNER, unless the GER/GNR had a branch in the foothills of the Norfolk Alps, of which I am unaware. Austrian engineers made strong contributions in both hydraulic and electric transmissions for locos, to the degree that the electric transmission variant of the Flying Hamburger had transmission control according to the Austrian GEBUS system, as opposed to the American Lemp system. GEBUS was co-founded by Gellinek, who had learned the fundamentals of electric transmissions from Porsche, who had in turn learned from Egger, who built about the fifth dynamo-electric locomotive in the world (Siemens, Field, and Edison were a short head in front of him). After the loco under discussion, Graz built (1927) the BBO 2020, with electric transmission, and a really nice baby version for narrow gauge (1930?), called BBO 2070. I think, but am not sure, that these both used Ward Leonard control, which was a bit passé for the application by then, and makes for a dreadfully heavy and expensive loco. GEBUS had built little narrow gauge DEs with their own (better) control system by these dates. K Edited February 8, 2016 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) I was unaware of its existence until an article appeared in 'Backtrack' a few years ago. IIRC that looks slightly different to the one illustrated in 'Backtrack' but it could well be the same locomotive before/after a rebuild. There was also a drawing of the locomotive in Backtrack. Thank you for those pointers, Phil. Looking it up, the loco has been described in several of the excellent Michael Rutherford articles. Tracing back through references accompanying a paragraph in Back Track v23 no. 2 (February 2009), there is a photograph in the July 1995 (v9 no. 7) issue and the dimensioned drawing in the August 1996 (v10 no. 8 issue. The photograph is credited to the NRM, the drawing to "Diesel Railway Traction" (an imprimatur of The Railway Gazette). It appears it was the first diesel to be tried out on a UK main line, although it was really only suited to shunting duties. The photo of the loco at Broxbourne in the RCTS "green book" is credited to AW Croughton. Around 350 of Croughton's negatives are held by the NRM (some were published by Real Photographs), others by the Lens of Sutton Association (but I cannot find the photo referenced in their lists). [Edited to remove an unplanned smiley]. Edited February 8, 2016 by EddieB 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 Here it is, and it was ex-works Graz in September 1923, photo during the LNER trials. Vast amounts of technical detail in two articles, which I will attempt to chisel through (my German is limited to the technical, and very plodding) and précis, when I get more time. K 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urthra Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Love the video clip of the LMS10000. Thank you for that. Completely off topic I know, but can anyone say if there was a matching (special) livery for the coaches to go with the black and chrome for the engine? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Amazing what turns up when you start digging. The Graz locomotive appears to have been rented by the BBÖ and first trialled on the Mödling-Laxenburg route in Lower Austria in 1924. (Laxenburg was the location of the summer residence of the former Emperor Franz Josef I). A history of the line ("Mödling-Laxenburg, Flügelbahn mit Kaiserbahnhof", Figlhuber, pub. Slezak) includes two later photos (undated) of the locomotive at Mödling, by which time it had been rebuilt with a much boxier body (and possibly shortened). The book includes a technical description by Ing. F X Sarau, the then president of the state railways, taken from a book published in 1925. There is no mention of the later history of the locomotive, or dates given when it was returned to that route. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 This topic complements the one about Modernisation Era diesels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I've Just received a scan of the Railway Magazine short piece about the Graz locomotive's trials on the ex-GER Cambridge line - together with a very comprehensive article from the Railway Engineer of the same time. The latter includes a full set of plans. Perhaps a model (when I can find time) - I can speculate, but it would be useful to know the colour scheme! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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