Castle Aching

[Northroader]

All of a sudden this thread made me come over all peckish...

But there was no black pudding, how could you call that a good breakfast?

Edited August 13, 2018 by Northroader

[RedGemAlchemist]

But there was no black pudding, how could you call that a good breakfast?

Considering that because of my diet my breakfast for the past three months has been oat bars I'd say anything that isn't ****ing oat bars would be a good breakfast.

Edited August 13, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Edwardian]

All will be revealed, very soon now.

 

 

The kit ought to include a set of turned brass or steel buffers (material depending on vintage, I think) which are unusual in that they include the collar of the buffer housing. You want the 12" size from MJT - 13" is post-Grouping. To generate spare collars you could kit-bash some Cambrian or Slaters PO wagons into dumb-buffed PO wagons; alternatively, the Ratio buffers with integral collar become spare if you kit-bash the Ratio p/way set to make dumb-buffed D12/D13 timber wagons... I might have some! (Spare Ratio buffers, that is.)

 

 

Intriguing.

 

Thank you, Stephen.

 

I don't have the PW set.

 

And, forgive me, I meant Silhouette cut, courtesy of London Tram of this parish.  Apparently the Caledonian had similar.

 

I had intended to build this with etched W irons and then to find appropriate axlebox/springs and buffer guides.  Last night the thought struck me that I might use the floor, solebars, buffer beams (cut off) from the Ratio 5-plank coal wagon (I reckon that I would likely always need more general merchandise than coal wagons in the case of the LNWR), as this is also a 15'6" wagon, though I may have overlooked Vital Differences.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

But there was no black pudding, how could you call that a good breakfast?

 

Fair point, though finding a quality black pudding is hard these days. 

 

Due to the centralisation of slaughtering, only very few artisan butchers have been able to make arrangements to harvest the blood from the abattoir.  As a consequence, about 96% of black pudding sold in the UK is, apparently, made from imported frozen blood.

 

Anyhow, I said it was the best breakfast in Devon; I never claimed it were t' proper Northern breakfast ...  

[Hroth]

compac_50.jpgWe'll be sinking under the amount of rubbish we spout here, we Might need a pump out.

 

compac_50.jpg

I've got one of these....

 A whale pump...

Thar she blows, cap'n!!!

 

 

As a net rubbish contributor, I frequently fret over the lack of serious on-topic material I can offer.

 

 

Oh well, may I remind folk that "Riddle Of The Sands", featuring the delectable JA is to be broadcast on TalkingPictures TV (Ch81) on 19/8 at 16:40.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Hroth

[Compound2632]

I had intended to build this with etched W irons and then to find appropriate axlebox/springs and buffer guides.  Last night the thought struck me that I might use the floor, solebars, buffer beams (cut off) from the Ratio 5-plank coal wagon (I reckon that I would likely always need more general merchandise than coal wagons in the case of the LNWR), as this is also a 15'6" wagon, though I may have overlooked Vital Differences.

 

I think you're OK there - the D32 and D4 are the same width over the ends of the headstocks, 7'8". I had toyed with using the 16'0" underframe as the basis for a D46 refrigerator van, til I realised these were 8'0" wide. (OK, I admit to the hypocrisy involved here in not giving 4" on a LNWR van but turning a blind eye to 5" on the footplate width of a Great Western locomotive...)

[Martin S-C]

Anyhow, I said it was the best breakfast in Devon; I never claimed it were t' proper Northern breakfast ...  

ModelU needs to 3D scan those three fine fellows to make up some authentic L&Y pre-grouping loco crews.

 

And the headgear shows why early engines didn't need cabs.

[Edwardian]

I think you're OK there - the D32 and D4 are the same width over the ends of the headstocks, 7'8". I had toyed with using the 16'0" underframe as the basis for a D46 refrigerator van, til I realised these were 8'0" wide. (OK, I admit to the hypocrisy involved here in not giving 4" on a LNWR van but turning a blind eye to 5" on the footplate width of a Great Western locomotive...)

 

I did not notice any disparity in width between the two Ratio kits, so I hope that means I am OK; if the D54 and D32 were the same width, hopefully a D4/9 u/f will be OK; the D32 would use the u/f from the Ratio D54; I believe both are 15'6" with 9' w/b. I would use the grease box and Scotch brake option again.

 

I would gain a second D4/9.  I, too, have been guilty of hypocrisy; having decided that I would make the 4-plank a D4, because there would have been relatively few D9s around in 1905, I decided to keep the coal wagon as D54, because I couldn't be faffed to take the top plank off and replace the diagonal strapping!

 

Anyway, back to the 2 on the stocks, as it appears the D53 were built with bottom doors, I assume these were retained when converted to D54.  If that is the case, I must either add something to the floor to give the impression of doors or, more simply, keep a covering of coal over the floor!

 

What, of course, only now, I realise is that I neglected to add filler to the exterior of the body corners! Photographs are quite useful in identifying mistakes and omissions as one goes along!

[Compound2632]

What, of course, only now, I realise is that I neglected to add filler to the exterior of the body corners! Photographs are quite useful in identifying mistakes and omissions as one goes along!

 

If a get an imperfect corner, I just round off the corner plate a bit more vigorously than usual - remember these are bent pieces of sheet metal. The radius isn't stated in LNWR Wagons but from the drawings therein seems to have been about 2".

 

Oh, and BTW, if that wagon to the left has company and number on cast plates, shouldn't it be red?

 

Please forgive my persistent trolling.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

 

Oh, and BTW, if that wagon to the left has company and number on cast plates, shouldn't it be red?

 

 

 

Not necessarily!

 

Although I think current thinking is that the change to grey coincided with the adoption of the large company initials in 1904, there seems to be no definitive evidence. previously it was thought that this took place c.1896-98.

 

The O5s with the cast plates are the Problem Children where livery is concerned.  If I have an O4, that can be in grey with large letters.  If I change the O5 to a pre-DC brake to make it an un-diagrammed 4-plank, then it can confidently be in red.  The build dates of the cast-plate O5s fall in the (possibly) grey area in between, and would have been built in red or grey depending upon when the livery changed. 

 

Personally, I tend towards red for the cast-plate O5s, but this example happens to have been finished in grey, and it is not possible to be sure that it's wrong! 

 

I shall dodge this entirely by omitting it from the CA visiting wagons roster!  To match the LNW D4, D54 and D32, I plan on GWR pre-diagram 3-plank with rounded ends, pre-diagram 4-plank and Iron Mink, all of which can and should be red! 

 

I will add a Cambrian Rys drop-side with a slate load, but then concentrate on closer neighbours, as we are, after all, pre-pool.

 

GE, GN, MR and M&GN will need to be fairly well represented.

 

When we get on to the Midland, I really will be in trouble!  What, I wonder, are the build dates for the 10-ton box van and fruit van that Slaters once produced, as both could find an excuse to visit CA?

[Compound2632]

Not necessarily!

 

Although I think current thinking is that the change to grey coincided with the adoption of the large company initials in 1904, there seems to be no definitive evidence. previously it was thought that this took place c.1896-98.

 

The O5s with the cast plates are the Problem Children where livery is concerned.  If I have an O4, that can be in grey with large letters.  If I change the O5 to a pre-DC brake to make it an un-diagrammed 4-plank, then it can confidently be in red.  The build dates of the cast-plate O5s fall in the (possibly) grey area in between, and would have been built in red or grey depending upon when the livery changed. 

 

Personally, I tend towards red for the cast-plate O5s, but this example happens to have been finished in grey, and it is not possible to be sure that it's wrong! 

 

I don't know much about the Great Western so have been boldly rushing in where angels may fear to tread. It makes for a pleasing contrast with the usual shades of grey!

 

 

I plan on GWR pre-diagram 3-plank with rounded ends, pre-diagram 4-plank and Iron Mink, all of which can and should be red! 

 

I really don't know much about the Great Western but weren't all the round-ended three-plankers cut down to straight ends by 1905?

 

When we get on to the Midland, I really will be in trouble!  What, I wonder, are the build dates for the 10-ton box van and fruit van that Slaters once produced, as both could find an excuse to visit CA?

 

Both OK for CA c. 1905 - though the D362/D363 8 ton/10 ton covered goods wagon is far more likely than the D361 fruit vans. There was a photo posted quite recently, that I commented on, showing three D362/3 wagons on a quayside somehere in East Anglia, I think - unfortunately I haven't been able to track it down. I'm in the middle* of building a complete set of D360 through to D364 from the Slater's kits.

 

*Perhaps towards the end, given that my sample D363 was assembled c. 1982.

 

EDIT: Found the photo - Great Yarmouth, posted by that town's best-known modeller of the Caledonian Railway, the confusingly-named Londontram.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

As a net rubbish contributor, I frequently fret over the lack of serious on-topic material I can offer.

 

Really?

There’s actually quite a lot of on-topic material taken as an absolute. The joy of this thread is how often and how far it goes off topic, yet comes back to its roots.

[Edwardian]

 

 

I really don't know much about the Great Western but weren't all the round-ended three-plankers cut down to straight ends by 1905?

 

 

Actually, I don't have a date for this, but I have a picture of one from a Lot built with round ends, cut down by 1902.  They'd stopped building them with round ends by 1883.  I don't know when they started cutting down the ones so built, or by when this was complete.  I happen to have a round-ended one in the stash and haven't the heart to cut it down!

 

Were David Geen still in business, I'd send for a flat-ended one.  In fact I tried. By the time I'd realised that he was one of those traders who provides an email address to customers specifically in order to ignore it (!), he had retired!  I should have just 'phoned, but I dislike telephoning strangers!

 

I was hoping that, in the parallel universe of CA, some round-enders might have slipped through.  Too ruthlessly efficient by half, Swindon.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Edwardian

[Martin S-C]

Photographs are quite useful in identifying mistakes and omissions as one goes along!

I understand that Murphy has definitively stated that photographs of your models can be studied in private for weeks and reveal no untoward features or mistakes. These only materialise after you have uploaded said images onto web forums and the number of views of the images has exceeded 50. As the view numbers increase, so the mistakes become more and more blatant. Its really not a good idea to upload images of your latest creation then go away smugly on holiday for a couple of weeks.

[Edwardian]

I understand that Murphy has definitively stated that photographs of your models can be studied in private for weeks and reveal no untoward features or mistakes. These only materialise after you have uploaded said images onto web forums and the number of views of the images has exceeded 50. As the view numbers increase, so the mistakes become more and more blatant. Its really not a good idea to upload images of your latest creation then go away smugly on holiday for a couple of weeks.

 

There is a similar law that says that, despite the most diligent research, including asking on public forums for information, the information actually required in order to make a model accurate will only be volunteered after you've built it ... wrong.

[RedGemAlchemist]

There is a similar law that says that, despite the most diligent research, including asking on public forums for information, the information actually required in order to make a model accurate will only be volunteered after you've built it ... wrong.

This is why I freelance.

[Compound2632]

There is a similar law that says that, despite the most diligent research, including asking on public forums for information, the information actually required in order to make a model accurate will only be volunteered after you've built it ... wrong.

 

I've long found that the best way to elicit correct information is to make a wrong statement. 

[Edwardian]

I've long found that the best way to elicit correct information is to make a wrong statement. 

 

Let's put that to the test:

 

"There is no record of the date by which the GW had cut down the ends of its last standard gauge round-ended open goods wagon"

 

and

 

"GW open wagons with round ends were in service at least as late as 1905"

[Jammy2305]

Let's put that to the test:

 

"There is no record of the date by which the GW had cut down the ends of its last standard gauge round-ended open goods wagon"

 

and

 

"GW open wagons with round ends were in service at least as late as 1905"

 

A quick search on Google brought this up: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-20326-same-but-different-early-1900s-gwr-wagons/

 

A response to a question near the bottom of the page provides the following:

 

"There is one to be seen near the tip of the crane in the wonderful photo of Vastern Road yard in GWR Goods Services Vol 2A, pages 18-19.  This has small pre-1904 GWR insigna. The photo is from 1905 or later, as a few wagons have the 1904 large "GW", including an O2 7-planker built 1905."

 

*Edited for spelling

Edited August 13, 2018 by jamesC37LG

[Compound2632]

Well, if Mikkel says so. But then he says they're red...

[Edwardian]

A quick search on Google brought this up: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-20326-same-but-different-early-1900s-gwr-wagons/

 

A response to a question near the bottom of the page provides the following:

 

"There is one to be seen near the tip of the crane in the wonderful photo of Vastern Road yard in GWR Goods Services Vol 2A, pages 18-19.  This has small pre-1904 GWR insigna. The photo is from 1905 or later, as a few wagons have the 1904 large "GW", including an O2 7-planker built 1905."

 

*Edited for spelling

 

 

Ha, ha, the theory is proved!

 

Thank you.  I do not have this volume and had not seen Mikkel's comments.

 

Ideally I'd have a flat-ender as well, as these must have been the more common when you consider that they were built this way for a long period from 1883 and the round-ended ones were built over a shorter period and "many" were converted.

 

It's good to have evidence that some round-enders survived intact to visit Norfolk in 1905!

 

Mikkel's post is worth quoting in full:

 

The 3-plankers were first introduced in 1879, and were built with the round ends until 1883, after which new builds were square ended. According to Atkins et al (GWR Goods Wagons 1998 edition), "many" of the original round ends were subsequently cut down to square ends.

 

So presumably not many would have survived with round ends beyond 1900, but I have found photos to show that some did:

 

* There is one to be seen near the tip of the crane in the wonderful photo of Vastern Road yard in GWR Goods Services Vol 2A, pages 18-19.  This has small pre-1904 GWR insigna. The photo is from 1905 or later, as a few wagons have the 1904 large "GW", including an O2 7-planker built 1905.

 

* In the same volume on page 16 is a photo from Kings Meadow yard, which clearly shows a round-ended wagon that looks like a GWR 3-planker to me (extreme right). The insignia cannot be seen though. Again, the livery on other wagons are a mix of pre- and post 1904.

 

There are one or two other photos showing possible candidates around the turn of the century, but I am not certain of these. Photos from afar are especially tricky as they may be confused with e.g. LSWR round-ended wagons (though they were 3-arc), which lasted much longer.

 

Well, if Mikkel says so. But then he says they're red...

 

He also says "No doubt someone will shortly discover that GWR wagons weren't red in this period after all! :-)"!

 

If you read the standard reference work, Atkins et al, you'll come away with the impression that the adoption of grey took place in the 1890s, i.e. before the cast plate wagons were produced.  The belief that the transition to grey was actually as late as 1904 is a relatively recent view. 

 

The evidence, is, however, far from definitive, though I do find that view persuasive, so, if I were building an 1898 wagon now, I might well paint it red. 

 

As it is, I shall hedge, and neither repaint the grey one nor run it on CA.  If I need to expand the GW goods stock (for a future project), I will need an O5 or two, and, on current evidence, I'd probably paint them red!

 

In the meantime, I'll run a pre-diagram 4-plank and a round-ended 3-plank, both in red, of course!

. g

[Caley Jim]

I've long found that the best way to elicit correct information is to make a wrong statement. 

Similarly, if you can't find a certain detail despite exhaustive searching, model it the way you think it would be and someone will come along with conclusive proof to the contrary.

 

On the other hand, if you find a photo of something which is an exception to the generally accepted norm, model it and when someone tells you that it's wrong, show them the photo!

 

Jim

[ian]

Similarly, if you can't find a certain detail despite exhaustive searching, model it the way you think it would be and someone will come along with conclusive proof to the contrary.

 

On the other hand, if you find a photo of something which is an exception to the generally accepted norm, model it and when someone tells you that it's wrong, show them the photo!

 

Jim

 

Or edit a photo of the real thing to reflect what you have modelled.

[Compound2632]

Or edit a photo of the real thing to reflect what you have modelled.

 

Only if modelling Soviet railways.

[RedGemAlchemist]