Castle Aching

[TheQ]

If we are talking about Sharp Stewarts, how about

 

[Nick Holliday]

How about the Rooter Roundhouse at New Cross - built to stable Stroudley's A class, now known as Terriers? It fell into disuse as a locomotive shed when the London suburban services required larger locos and the dimensions of the building were too small for anything larger than a Terrier. It was described in some detail in an article about New Cross shed in Railway World Dec 78.

Best wishes

Eric  

The first roundhouse at New Cross actually dated to the 1840s, being one of the first of its kind, at least in the UK.  It burned down in 1844; I seem to recall that a South Eastern Royal Train was passed the blaze en route to the Bricklayers' Arms terminal, and it was later re-roofed. It was known as the Octagon, and seemed to cater for tender locos by the simple expedient of removing the tender before stabling, a procedure fairly common at the time, and relatively simple since the only connections between loco and tender would be a coupling and the water supply. I feel that there is a degree of sentimentality regarding the Rooter Shed and its naming, as I suspect that it was probably the old Octagon under a different name, as it is hard to see how two octagonal roundhouses could be provided in the rather cramped locoation, and the Octagon was stilll standing in 1947. One source gives its building date as 1869, which is three years before the Terriers arrived, and the design and location would hardly suggest that it was actually built to service active locos, since it is tucked away right at the back of the site, and was limited to one class of loco, the A1 Terriers, or perhaps a D1 0-4-2T at a pinch.

[Edwardian]

If we are talking about Sharp Stewarts, how about

 

[runs as required]

This is what we had in mind (1881) ....

Interesting - is the short list purely based on the aesthetic or are all sorts of other profound engineering principles in play?

(with me as a lad it used to be more or less about cab styling*).

2

I've never properly noticed before an locomotive engraving that purports to be a centrepoint perspective projection rather than a pure elevation.

dh

 

edit: *I was surprised by a photo in this month's Backtrack of a wartime Collett 0-6-0 with its cab window plated over.

It's proportions looked positively FS at first sight!

Edited September 6, 2018 by runs as required

[Jammy2305]

The question is whether the WNR would have evolved to utilise larger passenger classes in due course?

 

It might be worth looking at the surrounding contemporary routes;

 

In 1905 motive power on the Lynn to Hunstanton route was primarily GER T26's, whilst the extension from Heacham to Wells was still making use of 'Little Sharpies' until their withdrawal. 

 

The M&GN as a route was little and large at the same time - It covered many miles but in some ways felt underdeveloped when compared to the GER. By this point they were running a fleet of 4-4-0's, but they needed to due to the mileage being covered. With regards to power it is worth noting that, aside from rebuilds of existing loco's, motive power never got any larger until well within the grouping era.

 

The impression I get from CA is that, unless there was a significant increase in traffic, the use of multiple (and larger) 4-4-0's may seem out of place.

 

This is of course merely my own opinion and at the end of the day we all find ourselves working to 'Rule 1' at some point. If you want a larger 4-4-0 to join the WNR fleet, go for it!

[Northroader]

This Roundhouse, could we have the CA Parish Christmas Party in it?

[Martin S-C]

Hm. A bit small and pokey. Can't we find something a bit more... flamboyant?

[RedGemAlchemist]

This Roundhouse, could we have the CA Parish Christmas Party in it?

8175285F-CA27-4B17-9414-B57885C3401E.jpeg

Strange, I now have "Under the Sea" from Disney's Little Mermaid stuck in my head...

[Donw]

In considering the expansion of the imaginary stud, I need to think of the route mileage and traffic that would require additional motive power, and the potential need for more powerful passenger types as time went on, especially by the 1890s.

 

To recapitulate.

 

So far, the WNR is said to have had a small Sharp Stewart 2-4-0, with 4-wheel tender. These were (also) supplied to the Cambrian ('Small Passenger") and the Furness (E1 Class).  The WN example (WN No.4) dates from 1873.

 

The question is whether the WNR would have evolved to utilise larger passenger classes in due course?

 

The other 2-4-0 tender locomotive (WN No.8) is the ex-Cornwall Minerals conversion, and the only 4-4-0 is the Neilson of 1866 (WN No.7).  These are really small-wheeled classes and must be regarded as mixed traffic. 

 

There is a Sharp Stewart passenger tank planned, the 2-4-2 radial of 1884 (WN No. 6), but no development of larger tender classes for passenger work.

 

One option is to leave things be, and suggest that no such development was necessary.

 

The other option is to allow WN motive power to develop in line with the other Sharp's customers, Cambrian and Furness:

 

• Cambrian Railways  "Small Bogie Passenger" (1878 - Class of 6): 5'6 1/2" coupled wheels at 8' centres.

• Furness K1 'Seagull" (1891 - Class of 4): 5' coupled wheels at 8' centres (I do wonder wonder if the table in Rush contains an error - 5'6" seems more likely, and Rush's drawing shows a 5'6" diameter).

• Cambrian Railways  "Large Bogie Passenger" or Class 61 (1893-1904 - Class of 22): 6' coupled wheels ant 8'3" centres.

• Furness K2 'Larger Seagull" (1896-1900 - Class of 8): 6' coupled wheels at 8'6" centres

 

Of course, the numbers purchased of each by the WN would be smaller than in the case of either the Cambrian or the Furness.

 

I am, as ever, in two minds. Too many large locomotives, too many 4-4-0s, might compromise the character of the WN.

 

The compromise I have in mind is to stick to the "Small Bogie" design.  The two examples of the smaller type span a long period; 1878 for the Cambrian to 1891 for the Furness.

 

I am considering that the WN never progressed to a 6' Class, like the Cambrian 'Large Bogie' '61 Class, or the Furness 'Larger Seagull'/K2 Class.  Perhaps it had a number of 5'6" 'small bogies', perhaps only 4, perhaps in two batches of 2, c.1882 and c.1892?

 

One of the nice aspects of the Small Bogie is that the wheelbase, including 6-wheel tender, is 41' 3 1/2".  The wheelbase of the Large Bogie was 42'.  Both would therefore fit on a 42' Roundhouse table!  The Small Bogie will have noticeably less heft and length than a Johnson 4-4-0 (requiring a 46' table), which seems likely to be the largest locomotive regularly visiting CA.

 

To give some idea of the difference of the two, here are drawings of the Furness K1 and K2 together. The upper drawing would be the sort of thing I am considering for the West Norfolk.

 

 

 

Comments/corrections welcome.

 

I would suggest sticking to the smaller wheeled 4-4-0 . I believe the weight of train that will be needed for the traffic on the WNR on ently graded lines will not warrant the larger loco. The Cambrian has a longer main line which has to climb over high mountains. The should not be anything as demanding as Talerddig the long climbs require a larger boiler to have more in reserve and maintain boiler pressure. Incidently I am sure Sharp Stewart could supply the 4-4-0 with a 4 wheel tender if that would have sufficient capacity for your routes.. 

 

Don

[Martin S-C]

On the subject of traffics which was all the rage a few pages back, is this any help? A cute graphical representation of the traffics generated along the M&GNJ.

[Knuckles]

This is what we had in mind (1881) ....

Essentially a Furness J1 with a few tweaks!

[Edwardian]

Extensions into an Expanded Norfolk.

 

As we know, the West Norfolk and the places it serves can only exist in an Expanded Norfolk that, to those without an active and willing imagination, lies lost in the folds of the map.

 

This means that there is a little more real estate to play with than a casual glance at a railway map of the county might suggest.

 

There is also the Expanded Fen, complete with inland sea, Eldernell Mere, that is the setting of the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway. Then there is the fact that the "West Norfolk" has only, thus far, inhabited north-west Norfolk.

 

I propose that, in addition to the main line north from CA to the north Norfolk coast, and the innumerable branches off it, two significant new routes are included in the system. This might give the company a little more 'critical mass'.

 

First, there is a more southerly route to the west, south of the Lynns, which will terminate at Mereport East.  Mereport is already well established in my world as an inland port connected to The Wash by ship canal, and the limit of the eastern "Mereport Extension" of the Isle of Eldernell Steam Traction Company. As such, the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway, as it consequently became, terminated on the western bank.  The West Norfolk can terminate on the eastern bank.  This rather replicates the GER and the M&GN at Wisbech, separated by the canalised Nene. The West Norfolk station would happily be known as "Mereport East", thus recalling the name of a layout I much admired, Maeport East.

 

Every so often, we headed not for the coast, but for Thetford Forest, which has a character all its own, and I think that the WNR mainline should branch to the north of CA allowing a fork to continue south west and then sweep down to the River Wissey where the station of Ickford and Mundburgh can represent the southernmost extent of the system.  

 

I do not think this does too much violence to the concept, but makes the WNR a bit more of a system.

 

In a moment of madness I considered driving another mainline east to terminate at Norwich, but the moment passed!  

 

[Compound2632]

This is all getting a bit too parallel to the M&GN - you might find that the Midland, having undoubtedly been supportive of any thorn in the Great Eastern's side, might become less favourably inclined to route traffic in your direction! Of course, Norwich as a goal of the original promoters is entirely possible - faced with reality, like many other grand schemes they were obliged to scale back more than somewhat. This is the West Norfolk, not the Norfolk & Western!

 

On locomotives, if I may continue to be so bold, I think there's a balance to be struck. My suspicion* is that there were periods of relative prosperity, when buying a small batch of standard Sharp Stewart engines was financially feasible, and lean years when the barrel was scraped to buy up any second-hand oddity. I imagine the WNR's locomotive foreman to be a life-long adept at make-do and mend, faced with the fundamental inefficiency of a fleet with no two engines the same. 

 

*This is simply inference from similar cases, whereas what Edwardian says is the fruit of much research in the company's archives.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Extensions into an Expanded Norfolk.

 

As we know, the West Norfolk and the places it serves can only exist in an Expanded Norfolk that, to those without an active and willing imagination, lies lost in the folds of the map.

 

This means that there is a little more real estate to play with than a casual glance at a railway map of the county might suggest.

 

There is also the Expanded Fen, complete with inland sea, Eldernell Mere, that is the setting of the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway. Then there is the fact that the "West Norfolk" has only, thus far, inhabited north-west Norfolk.

 

I propose that, in addition to the main line north from CA to the north Norfolk coast, and the innumerable branches off it, two significant new routes are included in the system. This might give the company a little more 'critical mass'.

 

First, there is a more southerly route to the west, south of the Lynns, which will terminate at Mereport East. Mereport is already well established in my world as an inland port connected to The Wash by ship canal, and the limit of the eastern "Mereport Extension" of the Isle of Eldernell Steam Traction Company. As such, the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway, as it consequently became, terminated on the western bank. The West Norfolk can terminate on the eastern bank. This rather replicates the GER and the M&GN at Wisbech, separated by the canalised Nene. The West Norfolk station would happily be known as "Mereport East", thus recalling the name of a layout I much admired, Maeport East.

 

Every so often, we headed not for the coast, but for Thetford Forest, which has a character all its own, and I think that the WNR mainline should branch to the north of CA allowing a fork to continue south west and then sweep down to the River Wissey where the station of Ickford and Mundburgh can represent the southernmost extent of the system.

 

I do not think this does too much violence to the concept, but makes the WNR a bit more of a system.

 

In a moment of madness I considered driving another mainline east to terminate at Norwich, but the moment passed!

Ah, but Thetford Forest area is KLR territory...

[RedGemAlchemist]

Extensions into an Expanded Norfolk.

 

As we know, the West Norfolk and the places it serves can only exist in an Expanded Norfolk that, to those without an active and willing imagination, lies lost in the folds of the map.

 

This means that there is a little more real estate to play with than a casual glance at a railway map of the county might suggest.

 

There is also the Expanded Fen, complete with inland sea, Eldernell Mere, that is the setting of the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway. Then there is the fact that the "West Norfolk" has only, thus far, inhabited north-west Norfolk.

 

I propose that, in addition to the main line north from CA to the north Norfolk coast, and the innumerable branches off it, two significant new routes are included in the system. This might give the company a little more 'critical mass'.

 

First, there is a more southerly route to the west, south of the Lynns, which will terminate at Mereport East. Mereport is already well established in my world as an inland port connected to The Wash by ship canal, and the limit of the eastern "Mereport Extension" of the Isle of Eldernell Steam Traction Company. As such, the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway, as it consequently became, terminated on the western bank. The West Norfolk can terminate on the eastern bank. This rather replicates the GER and the M&GN at Wisbech, separated by the canalised Nene. The West Norfolk station would happily be known as "Mereport East", thus recalling the name of a layout I much admired, Maeport East.

 

Every so often, we headed not for the coast, but for Thetford Forest, which has a character all its own, and I think that the WNR mainline should branch to the north of CA allowing a fork to continue south west and then sweep down to the River Wissey where the station of Ickford and Mundburgh can represent the southernmost extent of the system.

 

I do not think this does too much violence to the concept, but makes the WNR a bit more of a system.

 

In a moment of madness I considered driving another mainline east to terminate at Norwich, but the moment passed!

Interesting. Ah, but the Downham Market to Thetford Forest stretch is KLR territory remember... Likely where Telham Junction comes in... Edited September 6, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Nearholmer]

Well, it would give s reason to re-open the flint mines and associated processing facilities, on a more industrial scale, although i’m a bit pushed for ideas as to a potential market for flint flakes in Edwardian England. The nascent fag lighter industry, perhaps?

 

Anyway, I’m all in favour of this cartographical origami, if it allows all these pretty engines to come into the picture.

[Edwardian]

Interesting. Ah, but the Downham Market to Thetford Forest stretch is KLR territory remember... Likely where Telham Junction comes in...

 

Don't worry.

 

First, there is more Norfolk than you think! Especially in the western side of the county.

 

Second, I don't think the routes will conflict, so there seems little danger of the KLR becoming East Anglia's equivalent of the Polish Corridor.

 

Vorwärts!

[runs as required]

Well, it would give s reason to re-open the flint mines and associated processing facilities, on a more industrial scale, although i’m a bit pushed for ideas as to a potential market for flint flakes in Edwardian England. The nascent fag lighter industry, perhaps?

Anyway, I’m all in favour of this cartographical origami, if it allows all these pretty engines to come into the picture.

 

With the advantage of hindsight...There is always the future demand for smaller flints in interwar SE England's ribbon development sprawl by 'Jerry builders' ( cf  Orwell's 'Coming Up for Air')

Pebble dashing covered a multitude of sins (bodges) and flint pebbles must have been delivered to so many goods yards around London.

2

Downham Market to Thetford expansion could pillage GER's monopoly of East Dereham.

As remembered in my post #121116, Hobbies Ltd of Dereham, Norfolk played a large part in boys 1940/50s postwar hobbies. My chum in "the shed" took "Hobbies Weekly" and was always lusting after the latest fretwork patterns and kit which could be purchased on a trip down to "Hobbies" Manchester shop on London Road - 100 yds along from the station. I might get around to doctoring a stock waggon as a P.O. van wearing the Hobbies Ltd. logo.

I took the monthly "Meccano Magazine" and sent away by mail order for more tekkie stuff (for soldering) from Gamages in Holborn.

A third "swot" mate had a 'Juneero' metal metal punching and fabrication machine that we all envied - these machines disappeared without trace.

dh

Edited September 6, 2018 by runs as required

[Donw]

 

On locomotives, if I may continue to be so bold, I think there's a balance to be struck. My suspicion* is that there were periods of relative prosperity, when buying a small batch of standard Sharp Stewart engines was financially feasible, and lean years when the barrel was scraped to buy up any second-hand oddity. I imagine the WNR's locomotive foreman to be a life-long adept at make-do and mend, faced with the fundamental inefficiency of a fleet with no two engines the same. 

 

*This is simply inference from similar cases, whereas what Edwardian says is the fruit of much research in the company's archives.

 

I quite agree with this engine policy it allows some engines with a family feel  and the odd ones somewhat different and perhaps a little quirky.

 

Don

[RedGemAlchemist]

I quite agree with this engine policy it allows some engines with a family feel and the odd ones somewhat different and perhaps a little quirky.

 

Don

My thoughts exactly. That's the entire engine policy for my own work too!

 

Don't worry.

 

First, there is more Norfolk than you think! Especially in the western side of the county.

 

Second, I don't think the routes will conflict, so there seems little danger of the KLR becoming East Anglia's equivalent of the Polish Corridor.

 

Vorwärts!

Good. Then again, in my mind the two are actually linked.

 

"Change at Telham for the Kelsby Light Railway..."

[Adams442T]

I still have a 'Juneero', which i use often!  It's capacity to bend metal, cut lengths of wire, etc., etc., is amazing!  It's still going well after some 50 years!

[Owd Bob]

Well, it would give s reason to re-open the flint mines and associated processing facilities, on a more industrial scale,

...a good suggestion, as is any that can have an excuse to have a N.G. line brought into the scheme of things.  

[ianLMS]

I live between Southery and Methwold which on James' map is on the bottom left corner, which appears to be blessed with a beaufitful ray of sunshine.

 

There is potential for the line at Stoke Ferry to be extended to Watton which is right through the middle of flint mining country/forest and farmland. Flint mining was abundant in Brandon (pub called ther Flintnappers right in the centre is a give away), with Grimes Graves just outside of Brandon (ancient Flint mine). The Forestry Commission offices are at Santon Downham just between Thetford and Mundford right in the middle of Kings Forest (AKA - Thetford Forest) so again, the line could follow from Stoke Ferry to Thetford, passing through Santon Downham, with the main trade being timber and Flint.

 

If I wasnt so LMS single-minded, I would be tempted to develop a layout on this area myself!

 

Ian

[wagonman]

Well, it would give s reason to re-open the flint mines and associated processing facilities, on a more industrial scale, although i’m a bit pushed for ideas as to a potential market for flint flakes in Edwardian England. The nascent fag lighter industry, perhaps?

 

Anyway, I’m all in favour of this cartographical origami, if it allows all these pretty engines to come into the picture.

 

 

There was, and to some extent still is, demand from the Potteries for flint which is a prime source of silica. The  question is: was it calcined on the spot in Norfolk, on when it reached Stoke? Makes a difference to how it's transported...

[Regularity]

There was an act passed to extend from Stoke Ferry to Gooderstone (the “Gooderstone Extension Railway”, a second GER!) which partly explains my possession of a Y65. Trevor Nunn remarked to me some years ago that “Grimes Graves” would be a wonderful name for a layout.