Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

There was a 'facility' at Waterloo Station that my grandfather always held had been designed for The Highest Peer in the Realm. My grandfather wasn't all that tall.

[Regularity]

Depends whether you think it's intended for input or output!

That would be the key to proper use of the chair...

[Edwardian]

Here is something rather special.  A US-built Pullman of 1882, "Balmoral".  Supplied in kit form to the Midland, assembled at Derby and entering service as a 6-wheeler, converted to a bogie in 1885.  It's a short coach, for a bogie, but at 36'3", it must have been at or beyond the outer limits for a 6-wheeler.

 

Apparently the instructions exhorted the customer not to throw away the packing crates, as they were components of the coach!  Stephen told me that he has found packing case lettering on the body work.

 

When restored, it will be the oldest operational Pullman.

 

From the Midland it went to the Great Northern and from there to Highland.  It was a sleeper, but could convert to a day car.  The lettering survives, as does a fragment of the exotic decoration. It was in service in the Highlands until 1907 and then available for private hire up to1918. In 1920 Balmoral and her sister coach, Dunrobin, were made into a bungalow.

 

The decent shot, and the historic views, are taken from the Stately Trains website: https://www.statelytrains.com/balmoral.html#demo/img/balmoral/tw929.jpg

[Compound2632]

Careful reading of Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986) reveals that Balmoral and Dunrobin (originally Culross) never actually worked on the Midland. The Midland did have two cars of this design, St Louis and St Denis, originally built for the Chemins de fer de l'Ouest. After some trial running, they were found unsatisfactory as 6-wheelers, just as Balmoral and Culross were on the Great Northern. Derby being the home of Pullman in Europe at that time, Litchurch Lane works turned out a batch of four bogie underframes to Lot 72 of February 1882 for these cars - the C&W Committee minute books at Kew might shed light on the financial arrangements with Pullman. St Louis and St Denis were put on the overnight turn to Greenock from 1 July 1883, presumably running on that service for a decade until their conversion to picnic saloons in 1894. The two cars that went to the Highland worked the night service between Inverness and Perth - dep. 10pm arr. 7am - 9 hrs for the 146 miles via Forres!

 

When Thomas Clayton started building bogie carriages for general use on the Midland, he first used Pullman-style bogies with coil-spring compensation beams and transverse leaf springs for the bolster, though of 8ft wheelbase rather than the 6'6" of the Pullman cars. By 1882, he'd moved on to a design with individual leaf springs for each axlebox but retaining the transverse bolster springs; these are the bogies under Balmoral. (A pair also survive under a 43ft underframe at Foxfield.) The photo of St Denis in picnic saloon guise (Fig. 76 in Lacy & Dow) shows Pullman bogies of 6'6" wheelbase. I suspect it was given these when it was demoted from the Greenock run as other Pullman cars were being retired around that time.

 

So, a genuine Midland underframe of 1882, that never ran in revenue-earning service on the Midland!

[Northroader]

So, the next question to be asked, are the wheels iron or paper?? (I kid you not) it seems the Pullman Company patented wheels that were made from paper which had been compressed under pressure, then had steel tyres fitted. Here’s the mighty George Pullman himself trying to poke his walking stick through one.

[Compound2632]

So, the next question to be asked, are the wheels iron or paper?? (I kid you not) it seems the Pullman Company patented wheels that were made from paper which had been compressed under pressure, then had steel tyres fitted. Here’s the mighty George Pullman himself trying to poke his walking stick through one.

B34BCE79-82D8-4EA4-ACE8-22DF6EC6A30F.jpeg

 

Pay attention there: it's a Midland underframe with Midland bogies; the only Pullman influence is the transverse springing of the bolster. Originally it would have had wood-centred Mansell wheels; the ones it has now look to be steel discs. Question: if it survived as a grounded body, is this the original underframe? It looks as if it is, but if so, how did it survive?

 

The drawings from Engineering of 1875 showing the first cars supplied to the Midland show Mansell wheels too, so I don't think the paper ones were ever used in Britain.

[Edwardian]

Pay attention there: it's a Midland underframe with Midland bogies; the only Pullman influence is the transverse springing of the bolster. Originally it would have had wood-centred Mansell wheels; the ones it has now look to be steel discs. Question: if it survived as a grounded body, is this the original underframe? It looks as if it is, but if so, how did it survive?

 

The drawings from Engineering of 1875 showing the first cars supplied to the Midland show Mansell wheels too, so I don't think the paper ones were ever used in Britain.

 

I was wondering that in relation to the bogies.  I believe those are original Midland bogies, so where were they between 1920 and restoration?  I did not think to ask Stephen. 

 

Parts were canabilised from Dunrobin, but that does not really help here, as both were treated in the same way/became part of the same house.  Plans for the bungalow are on Stephen's site if anyone fancies building a house to incorporate Pullmans!

[Compound2632]

Parts were canabilised from Dunrobin, 

 

Not much left once Stephen Middleton had done robbin'... ?

 

Much the same story from Tony Lyster at Quainton: carriage bodies beyond reasonable hope of restoration are stripped for components - sheeting in usable condition is especially valuable.

 

The Stately Trains website gives an answer re. the bogies:

 

Another miracle was the discovery of the correct bogies.  Although Balmoral was on its’ original underframe it was missing all metal components except drawgear.  The Foxfield Railway has some Midland Railway scenery vans.  One was in very poor condition but the bogies, remaining brake gear and buffers were an exact fit on to the remaining bolt stubs on Balmoral.  Indeed it is possible that Balmoral and her three sister cars yielded bogies etc. for re-use, maybe on the scenery vans.  Photos confirm the buffers and bogies are correct. 

 

The Foxfield 43ft u/f I mentioned is under the "Bass coach" and still there to the best of my knowledge; they also have the body of a Midland 43ft 7-compartment all third; if only these could be united - a vehicle seating 70 passengers ought to be valuable to any heritage train operation.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Compound2632

[Denbridge]

Pay attention there: it's a Midland underframe with Midland bogies; the only Pullman influence is the transverse springing of the bolster. Originally it would have had wood-centred Mansell wheels; the ones it has now look to be steel discs. Question: if it survived as a grounded body, is this the original underframe? It looks as if it is, but if so, how did it survive?

 

The drawings from Engineering of 1875 showing the first cars supplied to the Midland show Mansell wheels too, so I don't think the paper ones were ever used in Britain.

the bogies came off a scenery van from the Foxfield railway.

[Edwardian]

Not much left once Stephen Middleton had done robbin'... ?

 

Much the same story from Tony Lyster at Quainton: carriage bodies beyond reasonable hope of restoration are stripped for components - sheeting in usable condition is especially valuable.

 

The Stately Trains website gives an answer re. the bogies:

 

Another miracle was the discovery of the correct bogies.  Although Balmoral was on its’ original underframe it was missing all metal components except drawgear.  The Foxfield Railway has some Midland Railway scenery vans.  One was in very poor condition but the bogies, remaining brake gear and buffers were an exact fit on to the remaining bolt stubs on Balmoral.  Indeed it is possible that Balmoral and her three sister cars yielded bogies etc. for re-use, maybe on the scenery vans.  Photos confirm the buffers and bogies are correct. 

 

The Foxfield 43ft u/f I mentioned is under the "Bass coach" and still there to the best of my knowledge; they also have the body of a Midland 43ft 7-compartment all third; if only these could be united - a vehicle seating 70 passengers ought to be valuable to any heritage train operation.

 

the bogies came off a scenery van from the Foxfield railway.

 

Thanks, both.  My mind must be going, because as soon as I read a set of Midland scenery vans at Foxfield, I recalled that Stephen had mentioned this.  Oh well, must make the most of it before the mind goes completely.

[drmditch]

So, the next question to be asked, are the wheels iron or paper?? (I kid you not) it seems the Pullman Company patented wheels that were made from paper which had been compressed under pressure, then had steel tyres fitted. Here’s the mighty George Pullman himself trying to poke his walking stick through one.

There may be a reference to this in the Kipling short story '.007' discussed somewhere above.

 

The rather rude Mogul (later the victim of an unfortunate animal triggered de-railment) states in regard to the 'faroucherie' of a Boston Compound, that.he 'doesn't hold with any make of Papier Mache wheel.

 

(sorry can't find an acute accent on this keyboard.)

 

What is the date of the cartoon? 

Edited October 26, 2018 by drmditch

[Edwardian]

 

The rather rude Mogul  

 

Oh, I don't know about that ...

[wagonman]

 

 

(sorry can't find an acute accent on this keyboard.)

 

 

 

 

On a Mac it's a simple alt+e then the 'e'. Simples, though lord knows what contortions you have to go through on a PC keyboard...

[brack]

On a Mac it's a simple alt+e then the 'e'. Simples, though lord knows what contortions you have to go through on a PC keyboard...

Alt+0233

 

No contortions needed

[Regularity]

On my iPad, I simply hold down the ‘e’ key and get loads of options to choose from.

[TheQ]

Éêeéë same on Android.

[Regularity]

Ėęēêèéëe.

I am glad that we have just the 26 letters in English, even if we have made a mess of things with 100 variants for 44 sounds!

[Compound2632]

I was going to make a comment about half-compartments but I can't get this Alt+0223 business to work. 

[Regularity]

Computers: simultaneously easing communication and fouling it up.

[Andy Hayter]

Alt+0233

 

No contortions needed

 

 

Alt +130 also does the job (UK QWERTY key board before anyone asks). 

[wagonman]

Alt+0233

 

No contortions needed

 

 

Apart from the contortions involved in memories a whole slew of 4 digit numbers, not to mention the extra keystrokes. Elegant it ain't.

[wagonman]

On my iPad, I simply hold down the ‘e’ key and get loads of options to choose from.

 

On my iPad I simply switch to French (or German) keyboard which comes with the relevant dictionary etc.

We could keep this game going for hours!

[Northroader]

There may be a reference to this in the Kipling short story '.007' discussed somewhere above.

 

The rather rude Mogul (later the victim of an unfortunate animal triggered de-railment) states in regard to the 'faroucherie' of a Boston Compound, that.he 'doesn't hold with any make of Papier Mache wheel.

 

(sorry can't find an acute accent on this keyboard.)

 

What is the date of the cartoon?

 

I’m afraid the book I lifted it out of doesn’t give any context to place it with a date, and another one I ve got isn’t any more help. I would say around 1880ish.

[Edwardian]

So, the next question to be asked, are the wheels iron or paper?? (I kid you not) it seems the Pullman Company patented wheels that were made from paper which had been compressed under pressure, then had steel tyres fitted. Here’s the mighty George Pullman himself trying to poke his walking stick through one.

B34BCE79-82D8-4EA4-ACE8-22DF6EC6A30F.jpeg

 

Nineteenth Century Innovations,  No.23 in an occasional series: The Pullman Wheel of Delight.

 

"And when I press here, naked chorus girls appear with my drinks trolley!"

[Compound2632]

If that's so, ole' George look a bit glum about it - world-weariness I expect.

 

I think in fact the other fellow is the other George, Westinghouse, and they're mutually grumbling about their dealings with the perfidious Midland Railway of England - "they darn gone an used mi' air for that there sanding system o' their's". (Apologies for the dreadful attempt at a southern drawl - what does a Pittsburgh accent look like written down?)

 

Edit: that set me off finding out how Yinzers speak but I won't attempt it.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Compound2632