Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

To help flesh-out my mental image (Blast! Northroader's pictures are getting to my psyche!), could I enquire as to which of the WNR's engine's worked the Wolfringham line?

 

I think there should be an old coal engine, at least until the harbour silted-up completely (the one with mudguards like bike?), but what else, and did things change when it was downgraded to LR status?

 

Well, the idea is, as you say, that it's quietly decayed into a sort of Light Railway after a certain point.

 

The plan is for the regular services to be dealt with by an 0-6-0 Fox Walker saddle tank, like those of the Great Yarmouth & Stalham.  This loco will be vacuum fitted and will ply the branch train comprising just 3 old short 4-wheelers (2 1860s ex-GER Brake Thirds either side of an 1850s ex-Eastern Counties First (running as a 2-1-2 composite)).  

 

 

The Fox Walker can also handle the meagre general merchandise traffic, probably in a mixed train.

 

I wonder if this is anything like how you saw it?

 

The coal trains from the Staithe and mineral traffic off the Norfolk Minerals Ry I thought I might entrust to the ex-Cornwall Minerals 0-6-0 Sharp Stewart tank, as supplied to the Lynn & Fakenham with Sharp's 4-wheel tender.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[wagonman]

Don't forget Sparkshot does a 3D print of the actual Furness Sharps 2-4-2T as well as all the other Furness/Cambrian stuff. Might be easier than carving up a (much larger) Lanky tank.

[Edwardian]

5 hours ago, wagonman said:

Don't forget Sparkshot does a 3D print of the actual Furness Sharps 2-4-2T as well as all the other Furness/Cambrian stuff. Might be easier than carving up a (much larger) Lanky tank.

 

Though the Furness tanks were in-house rebuilds of Sharp 2-4-0s, not off-the -shelf Sharp 2-4-2Ts

[RedGemAlchemist]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Dearie dearie me that gaping Midland-shaped hole in your library again. 

 

Write out one hundred times (once for every engine of the Neilson Goods class):

 

8'0" + 8'6"

 

And yes, it is long - the Midland built Big Engines in Matthew Kirtley and Samuel Johnson's day.

Longtrain is loooooooooooooooo...

 

*ahem* Moving on from dead memes...

 

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well, the idea is, as you say, that it's quietly decayed into a sort of Light Railway after a certain point.

 

The plan is for the regular services to be dealt with by an 0-6-0 Fox Walker saddle tank, like those of the Great Yarmouth & Stalham.  This loco will be vacuum fitted and will ply the branch train comprising just 3 old short 4-wheelers (2 1860s ex-GER Brake Thirds either side of an 1850s ex-Eastern Counties First (running as a 2-1-2 composite)).  

 

 

The Fox Walker can also handle the meagre general merchandise traffic, probably in a mixed train.

 

I wonder if this is anything like how you saw it?

 

The coal trains from the Staithe and mineral traffic off the Norfolk Minerals Ry I thought I might entrust to the ex-Cornwall Minerals 0-6-0 Sharp Stewart tank, as supplied to the Lynn & Fakenham with Sharp's 4-wheel tender.

 

 

What a quaint little pair of engines, and local to boot! Very nice! 

Edited April 24, 2019 by RedGemAlchemist
Spelling check

[wagonman]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Though the Furness tanks were in-house rebuilds of Sharp 2-4-0s, not off-the -shelf Sharp 2-4-2Ts

 

Yes, but very much in the 'House' style – look at the two, slightly different ones, supplied to the M&MR.

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

Yes, but very much in the 'House' style – look at the two, slightly different ones, supplied to the M&MR.

 

On the other hand, having chosen the Netherlands 2-4-2T as the basis of the WN's, I went and bought a Bachmann L&Y radial!

[TurboSnail]

10 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The coal trains from the Staithe and mineral traffic off the Norfolk Minerals Ry I thought I might entrust to the ex-Cornwall Minerals 0-6-0 Sharp Stewart tank, as supplied to the Lynn & Fakenham with Sharp's 4-wheel tender.

 

 

 

Ooh, now THAT is something worth modelling! I've been looking for something similar to handle slightly longer workings on my layout, I was thinking of going for a 2-4-0 but this is nice. Does anyone know the loco's wheel size and wheelbase?

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, TurboSnail said:

 

Ooh, now THAT is something worth modelling! I've been looking for something similar to handle slightly longer workings on my layout, I was thinking of going for a 2-4-0 but this is nice. Does anyone know the loco's wheel size and wheelbase?

 

I'm about to say exactly what you want to hear:

 

These little Cornwall Minerals Railway outside cylinder 0-6-0 tanks had 3’6” wheels (later 3’7½”) at 5’ and 6’ centres.

 

This makes the Electrotren/Golden Valley HO 0-6-0T/ST an almost perfect match. The wheel diameter for this model, as you know, is 14mm and I believe the centres are 20mm and 21.5mm.  EDIT: I had planned this before I obtained the donor loco.  Having now measured the model, I see that the wheelbase is more like 21mm + 24mm, so even better!

 

I have a second Electrotren 0-6-0.

 

I have drawings.

 

 

I have the tender: As a bonus, Knuckles of this Parish makes the tenders.  You may recall that some time ago I purchased a brace of them for this very purpose: Sharp Stewart Tenders. At York, last weekend, I purchased Alan Gibson wheels for them. 

 

Full particulars of the class: Here

 

These locomotives have been on the WNR roster since Moses came down from the mountain, so, obviously, if you make one first I'll be extremely annoyed it will serve me right for not yet building one!

 

Seriously, if you do plan to do this at any stage, let me know, because it would be a shame to go to all the trouble of a full body scratch-build only to find that in X-weeks you have the CAD to print one. 

 

There is no point in doing the tender, as Knuckles' is correct and a very good model.  These days it's best to get one from him off his Photon resin machine, hence I'm not linking to the Shapeways shop. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Edwardian
Corrections

[Edwardian]

These Sharp Stewart tank classes .....

 

Yes, I acknowledge that the proposed 2-4-2T is a relatively large loco for the WNR.  

 

It represents development.  

 

No smaller 2-4-2T suggests itself; both the smaller Furness  Sharps and the small Barry 2-4-2Ts were in-house rebuilds of tender classes.  The Manchester & Milford Haven Sharp 2-4-2T is a relatively late example, I think 1891.  If it were a one-off branch engine, I'd go for the Colne Valley's, but it's not.  It's mainline engine.  

 

The original inspiration for the WNR loco(s) was the class of Sharp Stewart 2-4-2Ts supplied to the "Rhenish" railway in the Netherlands by Sharp Stewart.  I think the original suggestion to use this engine for the WNR came from Northroader.  The locomotive was featured in the Engineer in 1881.

 

 

This is a relatively large Sharp Stewart 2-4-2T, though the smallest (and earliest) of the three large 2-4-2Ts we have considered:

 

Sharp Stewart Rhenish 2-4-2Ts (1881): 

- 3'6" leading and trailing wheels

- 5' 6 1/2" coupled wheels

- 22'10" wheelbase (7'2" + 8'6" + 7'2")

 

L&Y 2-4-2Ts (1889-1891):

- 3' leading and trailing wheels

- 5'8" coupled wheels*

- 24' wheelbase (7'9" + 8'6" + 7'9")

 

Barry Ry 2-4-2Ts (1898-99): 

- 3'6" leading and trailing wheels

- 5' 7 1/2" or 5'8" coupled wheels

- 23'10" wheelbase (7'8" + 8'6" + 7'8")

 

*NB, 5'8" = 22.66mm. Upon measuring the coupled wheels of the Bachmann model, I get 21mm, so the model is actually a good match for the slightly smaller wheels of the Rhenish loco. 

 

It is clearly going to be tricky to move the leading and trailing wheels 2.33mm closer to the centre of the loco. It might be worth replacing them with 3'6" wheels.

 

Now, I need to work out boiler pitch and dimensions before I'm sure of what I'm doing, but the Bachmann model looks a promising basis for the Rhenish loco.

 

How does this fit in with the WNR's motive power development?   

 

Well, the mainline passenger locomotives bought by the WNR were generally the Sharp Stewart 2-4-0s of the type also supplied to the Furness (as E1) and the Cambrian (Small Passenger Class). Latterly, the small Sharp 4-4-0 types (Furness K1 and Cambrian Small Bogie Class)were obtained.

 

Locomotives of these classes were supplied over a long period to both companies.  The supply of the 2-4-0s covered the 1860s up to the 1880s, overlapping with the advent of both the Rhenish 2-4-2Ts and the Small Bogies. 

 

The dates locos of these types were built/supplied may be summarised as follows:

 

Cambrian 2-4-0 SPC: 1863-1865 (12)

Furness 2-4-0 E1: 1870-2 (23)

Cambrian 4-4-0 SBC: 1878 (2)

Rhenish 2-4-2T: 1881 

Furness 2-4-0 E1: 1882 (2)

Cambrian 4-4-0 SBC: 1886 (2)

Furness 4-4-0 K1: 1890 (4)

Cambrian 4-4-0 SBC: 1891 (2)

 

The 2-4-0s span 1863-1882, and the 4-4-0s 1878-1891. The Rhenish tank falls plumb into the overlap.

 

In the case of the WNR, we can envisage a time in the 1860s and 1870s when only the small 2-4-0 was necessary.  Then, late '70s - early '80s, we might imagine a step up to gain a little more power in the form of a 4-4-0 version for the more smartly timed (ahem!) and longer services.  By the early 1880s, we might also see the need for a more powerful class for shorter distance trains, resulting in a 2-4-2T class.  

 

EDIT: Postscript - The Cambrian 2-4-0s had 5'6" coupled wheels.  The Cambrian 4-4-0s had 5' 6 1/2" coupled wheels.   The Rhenish 2-4-2T also had 5' 6 1/2" coupled wheels.  The Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 that I'm considering, would have 5'7" coupled wheels (based, as I intend, upon the RTR Adams Radial). There are no high-stepping Flyers, no Greyhounds.  This is the WNR.  Even the 4-4-0s are relatively small and modestly proportioned.  Passenger tender locos are of a size that would be considered a mixed traffic type upon longer, faster, grander lines. 

 

I hope, therefore, that this attempt to standardise part of the fleet with 3 Sharp Stewart 5'6" passenger classes is not considered outré, but, rather, found to be broadly appropriate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Edwardian

[Annie]

The Sharps 2-4-2T's are certainly a good sized chunk of a tank engine James which I know well from running the Barry Railway version on my virtual railways.  Very capable of doing good work though and they would be a good choice for shorter distance moderate weight passenger trains that need to keep to a closely timed schedule.

Unfortunately being sizeable tank engines (60 tons 18 cwt) they have a limited route availability over much of my sprawling Norfolk railway empire.

 

The Barry Railway Sharp Stewart built class B1 0-6-2T was first built in 1890 with other batches (including some by other makers) being built up until 1900.  At 55 tons the weight situation is slightly better, but they are still too heavy for some parts of my little railway empire.  As general purpose engines though they are very useful since they can handle everything from shunting to running passenger trains.

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, Annie said:

The Sharps 2-4-2T's are certainly a good sized chunk of a tank engine James which I know well from running the Barry Railway version on my virtual railways.  Very capable of doing good work though and they would be a good choice for shorter distance moderate weight passenger trains that need to keep to a closely timed schedule.

Unfortunately being sizeable tank engines (60 tons 18 cwt) they have a limited route availability over much of my sprawling Norfolk railway empire.

 

The Barry Railway Sharp Stewart built class B1 0-6-2T was first built in 1890 with other batches (including some by other makers) being built up until 1900.  At 55 tons the weight situation is slightly better, but they are still too heavy for some parts of my little railway empire.  As general purpose engines though they are very useful since they can handle everything from shunting to running passenger trains.

 

That is helpful, Annie.

 

I think that the Rhenish version, a wee bit weer that the Barry version, might shave a little off the 60 tons, but, yes, restricted to the WNR mainline.

 

The L&Y tanks seem to have been 56-59 tons, depending on the frame length.

 

Still, it's a worry.  Even assuming the Rhenish tank is not more than 55 tons (I must find the Engineer article), that's quite a lot of weight above the axles to hit the track with - the 2-4-0s were 24 tons and the 4-4-0s 33 tons. 

 

Should I be re-thinking the use of 'mainline' tanks on the WNR?

 

The Barry 0-6-2T, with 4'3" coupled wheels, would seem to be a good good engine pedant for the passenger tank.  

[Edwardian]

Thinking about this further, I don't think the WNR relaid it's mainlines to bullhead until 1898.

 

I am not sure those 2-4-2Ts would have been crunching the 1850s vignoles rails in the 1880s! 

[Northroader]

46 tons for a “chopper”? (And they were selling them off second hand)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNWR_4ft_6in_Tank_Class

[Annie]

There's a good reason that I stick to those small 25 ton freelance blue tank engines I build using a NSR Class B as a basis and not run any 'Sharpies' James.  As much as I love the 'Sharpies' they would have the trackwork on my sprawing minor railways hammered to bits in no time.

I am thinking of building up an ex- Barrow Hills & Foxhollow Extension Railway 'Sharpie' 0-6-2T, but then the B&FER was built to almost main line standards (which is why they most probably went bust) so its heavier weight will be fine.

[Annie]

1 minute ago, Northroader said:

46 tons for a “chopper”? (And they were selling them off second hand)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNWR_4ft_6in_Tank_Class

Nice, I like those.  Unfortunately I've only got the 5ft 3" version.

[Northroader]

Did I shove this in before? Anyway, here tis again.

[Compound2632]

Isn't Dutch marvellous? I understood Totale lengte over de buffers instantly of course, but I'm stumped as to what roosters have to do with anything?

[Nearholmer]

Roasted roosters, the roaster in question being the fire grate, is my guess.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Hmm. Reminds me, I've not got a 2-4-2 on the KLR roster yet... 

[Compound2632]

Yes, on further inspection, oppervlak is "area" and the first three items are firebox heating area, total or possibly just tube surface heating area, and grate area. One also infers that stoomverdeling volgens is valvegear or valvegear type. In old money, the wheelbase is 7'2" + 8'6" + 7'2" with 5'6.5" drivers and 3'5.5" carrying wheels, leading me to wonder what tyre thickness was in vogue on the Dutch railways. Boiler pitch is another key dimension for the modeller, here 6'10".

[Nearholmer]

Dutch is strange: I can make out a good percentage of things written in it, because they are phonetically, if not visually, close to either English or German (verwamd - nearly identical to German, heated, similar to warmed; (vuurkist - feuer chest/box; vlampijpen - flame pipes), but then there are words that seem to have no obvious relation to either!

Edited April 24, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes, on further inspection, oppervlak is "area" and the first three items are firebox heating area, total or possibly just tube surface heating area, and grate area. One also infers that stoomverdeling volgens is valvegear or valvegear type. In old money, the wheelbase is 7'2" + 8'6" + 7'2" with 5'6.5" drivers and 3'5.5" carrying wheels, leading me to wonder what tyre thickness was in vogue on the Dutch railways. Boiler pitch is another key dimension for the modeller, here 6'10".

 

48 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Did I shove this in before? Anyway, here tis again.

 

Thanks, both.

 

So, looks like the same loco, but with a chimney that's rather more convincing and a dome that's much more fun. 

 

Sharp Stewart Rhenish 2-4-2Ts (1881): 

- 3'6" leading and trailing wheels

- 5' 6 1/2" coupled wheels

- 22'10" wheelbase (7'2" + 8'6" + 7'2")

 

At 52,9 tons, that does, as predicted, make her lighter than the L&Y and Barry 2-4-2Ts.  But, I fear what the Line's engineer would say!

  

Some days, the vicissitudes of life cause me to exceed my maximum stoomspanning!

 

 

[Compound2632]

My mother-in-law, a brilliant linguist and fluent in German, felt she'd picked up the flavour of Dutch enough to engage in conversation with the locals. She had to ask one to speak more slowly*, explaining that she was English. This got the reply, in perfect English: "Then why are you bothering to speak Dutch?"

 

*cf double Dutch.

[Northroader]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

  

Some days, the vicissitudes of life cause me to exceed my maximum stoomspanning!

 

 

 

   

 

“Wat is je probleem, abstublieft???”

[corneliuslundie]

If you are referring to the Barry Class c as rebuilt, they were originally 2-4-0T not tender engines. The weight as rebuilt was 50 tons 15 cwt. the GWR rebuilt them again of course.

The J class were built as 2-4-2T and weighed 60 tons 18 cwt.

See Welsh Railway Records. Volume 2: Barry Railway Drawings recently published by the WRRC.

For a small consideration - such as you promising to produce a model to please us all - I might be able to slip you a copy of the drawing of the 2-4-2T version of the C class as drawn for the book. Or you might even buy the book, though I am not sure a Barry class d woud be much use to you.

Jonathan