Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

Certainly surprised me, and I typed it!

 

I had no idea that they existed as a garment in the C17th, let alone that they were imported from the Low Countries. Must have needed an awful lot of them to provide useful ballast in a sailing barge.

[Fenman]

Certainly surprised me, and I typed it! ...

 

I was tempted to write that you had clearly made a Freudian slip, but slips are a whole new world of under-garments...

 

Paul

[Edwardian]

Interesting. I got the impression that Edwardian ladies wore rather larger and less glamorous underwear.

 

Quite!

 

More appropriate for the West Norfolk Railway, I feel (at least when Sir Rufus D' Astard is visiting the district!)

Edited November 7, 2016 by Andy Y
Copyright issue

[bgman]

Now I understand why I enjoy railway modelling

 

S.Mutty

[Edwardian]

Obviously you left your smut-filter off...

 

I didn't leave off as much as she did, however ....

[Edwardian]

Now I understand why I enjoy railway modelling

 

S.Mutty

 

I discovered, quite by accident, Your Honour, that there is a whole sub-culture of girls posing for pictures on railway tracks.  Mainly a US thing, I infer. 

 

Most of the ladies seem quite modest and decorous.  Some others, however ...

 

As I may have mentioned before, the late, great Tom Lehrer once reminded us that: 

 

All books can be indecent books, but recent books are bolder

For filth, I'm glad to say, is in the mind of the beholder

When correctly viewed

Everything is lewd

I could tell you things about Peter Pan

And the Wizard of Oz, what a dirty old man!

[TheQ]

Flat bottomed rail certainly, the MSWJR was Built with Krups FB rail in 1883

 Alfreton and Sutton tramway used concrete sleepers in 1884. ( The patent for concrete sleepers 1877 French!)

[Edwardian]

Concrete sleepers and heavy flatbottom rail in Edwardian Norfolk?

 

Whatever next?

 

Quite.

 

The track is not at all suitable.  We could render the photographer a signal (ahem) service by pointing out the use of anachronistic permanent way in his oeuvre.  I am sure his gratitude upon learning of this deplorable solecism will be virtually boundless. 

[Edwardian]

My daughter wondered what those pictures have to do with model railways, and what sort of sad individual would know where to find such an image.

She said a few other words, too, but they weren't nice words.

 

The answer is "Google"; it does not always throw up the sort of images you anticipate or want!

 

I am sure a great deal of this topic has little to do with model railways, and if I ever fall to wondering what political correctness has to do with model railways, I will at least know where to go for an answer!  

 

 

Flat bottomed rail certainly, the MSWJR was Built with Krups FB rail in 1883

 Alfreton and Sutton tramway used concrete sleepers in 1884. ( The patent for concrete sleepers 1877 French!)

 

Oh, absolutely.

 

WNR still has much light FB rail, though the running lines have been replaced with BH.

[corneliuslundie]

As it is before the watershed, I am going to be really boring and talk about wagons.

Thomas Moy was buying wagons as early as 1871 (Turton Vol 8 p154). An early 20th century wagon is illustrated on page 117 of Turton volume 5, along with a more modern one. There is also a modern (relatively) one in Hudson volume 1 on page 70, but that whole section on East Anglian wagons has several examples which are the right period and may be of interest.

Now you can get back to the serious discussion.

Jonathan

BTW There are lots of Dutch influenced houses in Topsham on the Exe estuary, plenty of pantiles and Dutch gables.

[Edwardian]

As it is before the watershed, I am going to be really boring and talk about wagons.

Thomas Moy was buying wagons as early as 1871 (Turton Vol 8 p154). An early 20th century wagon is illustrated on page 117 of Turton volume 5, along with a more modern one. There is also a modern (relatively) one in Hudson volume 1 on page 70, but that whole section on East Anglian wagons has several examples which are the right period and may be of interest.

Now you can get back to the serious discussion.

Jonathan

BTW There are lots of Dutch influenced houses in Topsham on the Exe estuary, plenty of pantiles and Dutch gables.

 

Thanks.  I don't have any of these volumes, but will keep an eye out.

 

Interesting that pantiles have cropped up on the Devon coast.

[jwealleans]

Interesting article about the origins of PO wagons and the earliest records in the current HMRS Journal.

Edited November 7, 2016 by jwealleans

[Northroader]

Lifting an item in the HMRS journal (vol18, no10) by Kieth Turton, Coote & Warren Ltd was one of the largest provincial coal dealers in the country, covering the whole of East Anglia with supplies from Yorks, Notts, and Derbys. with its country division, and outer environs of London from its London divn. Two firms were Thomas Coote, and Frederick Warren, both of St. Ives, Hunts. both ran parallel coal businesses, until merger in 1908. Warren also had wagon building, repair and rental at Peterborough. Here's a shot of a 1902 wagon from Warrens:

On the pantiLes matter, they weren't imported at Bridgewater, but made there, using coal ferried over from S.Wales, which is where the docks comes in, and presumably clay from the Somerset levels. There's still the last bottle kiln on East Quay, used as a small museum. Then all over Somerset and up to Bristol.

[Edwardian]

Lifting an item in the HMRS journal (vol18, no10) by Kieth Turton, Coote & Warren Ltd was one of the largest provincial coal dealers in the country, covering the whole of East Anglia with supplies from Yorks, Notts, and Derbys. with its country division, and outer environs of London from its London divn. Two firms were Thomas Coote, and Frederick Warren, both of St. Ives, Hunts. both ran parallel coal businesses, until merger in 1908. Warren also had wagon building, repair and rental at Peterborough. Here's a shot of a 1902 wagon from Warrens:

IMG_0731.JPG

On the pantiLes matter, they weren't imported at Bridgewater, but made there, using coal ferried over from S.Wales, which is where the docks comes in, and presumably clay from the Somerset levels. There's still the last bottle kiln on East Quay, used as a small museum. Then all over Somerset and up to Bristol.

 

Perfect, many thanks.  I could adapt that from a Cambrian Kits kit. Interesting feature on the side door.  I suppose we have to guess the colour.  Grey might be a safe bet.

 

So, pantiles were made in the UK!  That's interesting. I wonder if those seen at Bristol were made locally.

[Shadow]

There was a brickworks just to the East of Burnham Overy.

 

Peterstone Brickworks. (Now a campsite)

 

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101580635

 

https://www.pitchup.com/campsites/England/East_Anglia/Norfolk/Wells-next-the-Sea/norfolk-brickyard/#&gid=1&pid=7

 

I've seen some better images somewhere but can't locate them at the moment!

[Edwardian]

Clearly, though I've just suffered the Mary Whitehouse experience, I note and regret the loss of 7 pages worth of Castle Aching.  Good contributions now gone to waste.

 

The continued, but more or less subtle, surveillance/disapproval was not so subtle today. Certainly I don't feel much like bothering when so much content is excised/withdrawn. And what a silly spat, after all.

 

Never was much of a conformist, so perhaps my time has run its course.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by Edwardian

[CKPR]

What's pertaining old bean ?

[James Harrison]

Lifting an item in the HMRS journal (vol18, no10) by Kieth Turton, Coote & Warren Ltd was one of the largest provincial coal dealers in the country, covering the whole of East Anglia with supplies from Yorks, Notts, and Derbys. with its country division, and outer environs of London from its London divn. Two firms were Thomas Coote, and Frederick Warren, both of St. Ives, Hunts. both ran parallel coal businesses, until merger in 1908. Warren also had wagon building, repair and rental at Peterborough. Here's a shot of a 1902 wagon from Warrens:

IMG_0731.JPG

On the pantiLes matter, they weren't imported at Bridgewater, but made there, using coal ferried over from S.Wales, which is where the docks comes in, and presumably clay from the Somerset levels. There's still the last bottle kiln on East Quay, used as a small museum. Then all over Somerset and up to Bristol.

 

POWsides do rub-down transfers for the F Warren livery.  They specify the wagon body is red in colour. 

 

 

Of course, when I built mine I managed to fluff up the transfers, so I've said it was damaged in a zeppelin raid in WWI and painted parts over to suggest new planks and a rudimentary paint job just sufficient to get it back in traffic. 

[corneliuslundie]

Turton volume 5 also has a section on Coote & Warren including the above photo. Keith Turton's caption says "The wagon appears to have a red body with white letters shgaded black and black ironwork, albeit that the ironwork looks a different hue to the shading on the lettering". There is also an offocial view from the builder's catalogue (Pickering) of the same wagon with the top door open though it is much touched up.

Coote & Warren was not formed until 1908 though Turton states that before that date each family was represented on the other company's board of directors. The original Mr Coote appears to have been quite a man. Despite finding time to have 13 children (though presumably more time consuming for his wife than for him) he was also Deputy Leutenant of Cambridgeshire and High Sheriff of Huntingdonshire and Cambridgeshire. By comparison Mr Warren seems to have been perfectly normal (all from Turton).

BTW there are at least two downloadable indexes of private owner wagon references in books, one a PDF and the other an Excel file.

Jonathan

[wagonman]

How's about this for a guide to roofing types?

 

http://www.nfrc.co.uk/docs/default-source/heritage-register-docs/hr-list-of-heritage-roof-types.pdf?sfvrsn=2

 

Panties, I think we've discussed here before, and they seem to have originated with imports from the Low Countries to the 'eastern seaboard', starting in the mid/late C17th.

 

My impression is that, in areas where the clay is good, and relatively small local brick and tile works could keep up with house-building demand, Welsh slates didn't make huge inroads, except possibly for "architect designed" buildings, places like hotels, municipal buildings, institutions etc, where a remotely-based architect might be specifying the materials.

 

Anyway, I'm supposed to be doing DIY!

 

K

 

 

From studying the Blakeney and Cley Port Books of the C18, and the records of the Blakeney Harbour Co from 1817 I can say unequivocally that no ships from here sailed to Rotterdam with the sole intention of bringing home a cargo of pantiles. It was also a case of a return load in lieu of ballast for ships that had gone over with their holds full of Norfolk grain.

 

The church has a slate roof on its C14 nave and a building out on the marsh referred to as a 'chapel' – probably a chantry associated with Blakeney Friary – also showed signs of having been slated when it was 'dug' a few years back. Significantly the only non-ecclesiastic house in this village to be roofed in slate is the old Town Hall House, quite an imposing structure, built in 1897. Conversely there are a few old vernacular buildings in the area which show evidence of having once been thatched.

 

There were brickyards in the area – Holkham Hall is reputed to be built entirely from bricks made in their own brickyard using the local gault clay. Not the sort of thing you'd want to lug very far overland.

 

 

Richard

[wagonman]

. There is a village called Ostend near me.

 

 

 

You're not far from California either...

[Nearholmer]

Edwardian

 

Are you saying that the CA saga has been redacted by the moderators?

 

Which bits? Obviously the scantily clad lady PWay maintainer, but where else are we alleged to have strayed from the path of decency?

 

Kevin

[Andy Hayter]

 

 

I wonder when, in the pre-Grouping period, should we be looking at the predominately Welsh slate roof-tops familiar in the townscapes of many places?  1890? 1900? 1910? 1920?

 

 

 

Impossible to give a definitive answer but generally I would have said earlier than that.

 

There were two forces at work that caused a change from clay to slate.

 

1. Mechanisation of slate production (powered drills, explosives, steam hauled transportation) made slate a cheaper and cheaper material and one that could be transported more widely and more quickly to its final destination.  Originally slate was mined by hand using hand turned drill bits hit with a sledge hammer.  Black powder was used for blasting but was relatively low powered.  Nitro-glycerine was invented in 1847 and over around 10-15 years worked its way into mining.  Steam powered cutting cleaving and shaping machines replaced the original hand working.  The volumes of slate being produced went up many fold around the middle of the 19th century - just in time for mill expansions and the need to house workers in the North of England.

 

2.  The change from wooden hulled sail ships to iron hulled steam driven or steam assisted ships meant that the carrying of ballast loads became much less frequent.  "Waste" pantiles arriving in British ports therefore diminished to the point where pantiles had to be imported as a cargo.

 

Taken together slate became abundant and cheap (and indigenous) and at the same time (roughly) pantiles began to become scarce and more expensive.

 

It is also possible that the Boer Wars may have created some antagonism towards purchasing Dutch goods, although I have no evidence as such.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Andy Hayter

[wagonman]

Impossible to give a definitive answer but generally I would have said earlier than that.

 

There were two forces at work that caused a change from clay to slate.

 

1. Mechanisation of slate production (powered drills, explosives, steam hauled transportation) made slate a cheaper and cheaper material and one that could be transported more widely and more quickly to its final destination.  Originally slate was mined by hand using hand turned drill bits hit with a sledge hammer.  Black powder was used for blasting but was relatively low powered.  Nitro-glycerine was invented in 1847 and over around 10-15 years worked its way into mining.  Steam powered cutting cleaving and shaping machines replaced the original hand working.  The volumes of slate being produced went up many fold around the middle of the 19th century - just in time for mill expansions and the need to house workers in the North of England.

 

2.  The change from wooden hulled sail ships to iron hulled steam driven or steam assisted ships meant that the carrying of ballast loads became much less frequent.  "Waste" pantiles arriving in British ports therefore diminished to the point where pantiles had to be imported as a cargo.

 

Taken together slate became abundant and cheap (and indigenous) and at the same time (roughly) pantiles began to become scarce and more expensive.

 

It is also possible that the Boer Wars may have created some antagonism towards purchasing Dutch goods, although I have no evidence as such.

 

 

Interesting. Much of London was roofed in slate from the C18 at least and improved shipping must have had much to do with that, but I think it was the railways that enabled the increased production of welsh slate in the mid C19 to penetrate so many new markets, most of them inland. Slate does start to appear on vernacular buildings in Norfolk from the late 1880s though it never becomes universal. Now even brand new houses have to have pantiled roofs and some token flints glued on! But that's a planning issue.

[Northroader]

Sorry to hear whatever it was has got you down, there's rather less than pantiles being shown regularly on some threads around here with no harm done or complaints. Seven pages gone? surely not? Chin up, you're ok! Now go out and vote for Trump!!!???@@###