Castle Aching

[runs as required]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

I have a fear that we will end up with rule by social media in that whatever view gets the most likes and spreads fastest will become unstoppable. 

Don

Does RMweb count as social media?   And are "likes" an issue for us pre-Groupers?

 

Answering for myself : I say RMweb is social media / I've always felt good that someone has clicked a reaction to a post of mine / I am worried we are 'Wheeltappers' currently  posting outside our Pre-Grouping/Modelling/Prototype  'frame of reference' 

dh

[Nearholmer]

“In my view any change would be unnecessary if the Political parties and MPs would be more honest, the public to take the trouble to be better informed and the media to be impartial.”

 

Couldn’t agree more. Massive trio of asks, though, and I don't yet see either a truly frank and communicative leader emerging anywhere, or a growing popular movement based on rigorous self-education. My working assumption is that impartial media would only ever occur after pretty stern persuasion from one or both of the others.

 

Anyway, all this heavy political philosophy was getting to me, so I went for a bike ride, and can offer a possibly over-picturesque ditch. It was drizzling, if that helps.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[webbcompound]

Aah, the "clean break with Europe". Would that take us back to 1992, before we signed the Treaty of Maastricht and the formation of the European Union, or 1990 when we signed the treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, or 1975 when we voted in a referendum to stay in the reformed European Economic Community , or 1973 before we joined the European Economic Area, or 1957 when we refused to sign the Treaty of Rome, or 1947 when we signed the  the Paris Treaties?

 

i have a sneaking suspicion it isn't as easy as unplugging the Lenz system and plugging in the Digitrax

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by webbcompound

[Hroth]

17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

“In my view any change would be unnecessary if the Political parties and MPs would be more honest, the public to take the trouble to be better informed and the media to be impartial.”

 

Couldn’t agree more. Massive trio of asks, though, and I don't yet see either a truly frank and communicative leader emerging anywhere, or a growing popular movement based on rigorous self-education. My working assumption is that impartial media would only ever occur after pretty stern persuasion from one or both of the others.

 

Anyway, all this heavy political philosophy was getting to me, so I went for a bike ride, and can offer a possibly over-picturesque ditch. It was drizzling, if that helps.

 

 

 

A very metaphorical ditch, clogged and not going anywhere very quickly.

[Hroth]

You know, i'm feeling rather like a citizen of Pompeii in 79AD.

 

Vesuvius has just ejected a vast amount of clag into the air and no matter what I do, its all going to end badly.

[Donw]

4 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

The problem as I see it for the UK's and the American systems is that they both lack compulsory voting. Compulsory voting as in one has to vote, not as in being told who to vote for, is written into the Australian constitution and it works quite well. It has the effect of actually forcing all eligible citizens to think about about how they will exercise their democratic duty or else they get fined. It isn't perfect but at the least it makes even the laziest citizens actually concentrate on something important for a few hours. 

 

In the last presidential elections in the US less than one half of eligible voters actually cast a vote and of them less than one half actually voted for Trump - in fact the popular vote by a margin of over 2 million went to Clinton yet because of that silly Electoral College gerrymander Trump was elected President. A similar travesty of the democratic vote happened with the Brexit referendum in the UK. Only a small percentage of eligible voters cast votes and the winning margin for Brexit was therefore made even less a representation of the total number of eligible voters.

 

In the case of Brexit it was an idiotic outcome both for Britain and its economy, as well as driving a wedge into the concept of a united Europe, which has been through its disunity and rivalries the cause of the last couple of centuries of massive bloodshed at the international level. It was therefore an act of complete irresponsibility and just what one would expect from a nasty little oik like Farage and his flag waving followers. The same might be said of the results of Trump's election - yet more flag waving no-hopers setting out to destroy the delicate balance of the world we all have to live in. The world has enough real problems without these selfish fits of nationalistic spite.

 

Now we are witnessing the ongoing train wreck of the British parliament as that charlatan BoJo tries to do a very poor impression of Winston Churchill when he should be trying to  follow the statesman like behaviour of a Pitt or a Gladstone.

 

 

Not only are you being rude about other peoples choices you are also factually wrong the Brexit Vote was a higher turnout than usual. I find it quite offensive.

 

Don

[ian]

6 hours ago, Regularity said:

That’s why we don’t have one. A true democracy would involve regular plebiscites, which would be binding. I think it would soon lose its attraction.

 

I know a story about that...

 

 

Edit: Plebiscite starts here - https://youtu.be/WT_prfYb6DE?t=5395

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by ian

[Donw]

4 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

Er, no. The big problem is that the Brexit on offer was not defined in 2016. If you choose to believe it was for a 'clean break' (not actually possible) then that is your choice but you cannot assume it was the choice of all/any of the other Leave voters. As things stand the choice in a new plebiscite as offered by Corbyn would be between an achievable exit that would not do irretrievable damage to the UK or remaining (and hopefully reforming). Your no-deal exit would lead to recession at home, renewed civil war in NI, the break up of the UK, and likely the imposition of martial law under the terms of the Civil Contingencies Act of 2004. And there would still be no unicorns.

 

You wish to deny people the choice they offered. If you re so sure  

4 hours ago, Regularity said:

My father, an ardent Brexiter, has variously said "leaves mean leave" (which is meaningless), "it was clear that it meant no deal" (which it wasn't) and the other day, "the trouble is, people didn't know what they were voting for". To which latter I replied, "I did. I voted remain, and I knew exactly what that stood for." He also commented that Cameron promised to respect the outcome. Well, he also promised to stay as PM, which he reneged on, and that was possibly an important point for the small percentage who made the difference in the votes cast. Also, that wasn't, under UK common law under which elections take place (but not the referendum), a promise that was in his gift to make anyway - he was told by the House of Lords that for the referendum to be binding, there would have to be at least 50% of the electorate (not just the popular vote) in favour of leaving. Ironically, such a clause would have reversed all this: leavers would have been petitioning the courts about malpractice.

 

I think a referendum should offer 3 choices:

Leave with no deal.

Leave with TM's deal (if a deal is to be had, it will be very like this).

Revoke article 50.

 

That would remove any further confusion.

After that, we should have a GE, but although I agree with their policy, I won't be voting for the LDs as they promised to revoke tuition fees if elected, and gave that promise away*. And instead of forming a centre-left coalition which is what I think ythe country wanted, cosied up to a nasty Tory party simply because they didn't like Gordon Brown.

 

* Like Cameron's promise of a referendum in the 2015 Tory manifesto, this was a promise made in the belief that it would never have to be implemented.

 

Unlike many of those responding you are in favour of allowing people a fair range of choice and any such referendum would at least show what the people feel and the result should be respected by all.  My preference would be for a General Election where the parties could say which they would be willing to enact. Perhaps then the winning party would be able to carry forward its plans.

Don

[Nearholmer]

Gentlemen,

 

I warned earlier of the possibility of a split in the PC ........ please, please, please, don't get CA locked.

 

We've slithered round the edge of RMWeb-Law up to now, usually by having a discussion couched in therms of history (most of which is, after all, pre-grouping), and by maintaining some sense of humour.

 

We had enough unparliamentary language yesterday in parliament.

 

Kevin

 

** Always remember: half the electorate disagrees with each and every one of us. **

[Compound2632]

I had thought of posting earlier today to say how disturbing it was that the only place I was then encountering calm, rational, informed debate on the current political situation was on a model railway forum. I'm sorry to see that slipping just a little and apologise for posting one comment that does seem to have triggered some more intemperate posting. 

 

Let us remind ourselves that, to quote Laurence Sterne, they order this matter better in France:

 

 

[Regularity]

1 minute ago, Donw said:

Unlike many of those responding you are in favour of allowing people a fair range of choice and any such referendum would at least show what the people feel and the result should be respected by all.  My preference would be for a General Election where the parties could say which they would be willing to enact. Perhaps then the winning party would be able to carry forward its plans.

It's one of those things, Don, where although I have my own views and preferences, I am happy to accept that others see the world differently. I think that's called respect, or something like that.

I have no problem abiding with decisions I don't agree with or like, but I prefer them to have been made properly (lawfully!) and on the basis of thoughtful consideration of the facts, rather than second-hand opinion and the pig's breakfast or procedure we have seen over the past few years.

 

I think the biggest shame about Brexit, should it happen, is that until the referendum, many Europeans had seen the UK as a moderating power within the EU, preventing the Commission from running everything and acting as mediator in a lot of disputes. Even if we flip-flop and decide to remain, I think that reputation has been severely damaged, but the Germans at least would be very happy to have us in the EU.

 

As Kevin says, we have veered away from the times of nearly a century or more ago, and as dh said, have strayed into "Wheeltappers and Shunters" territory. I don't bother going there, and for a good reason...

And Kevin, I think that typically speaking, about 60% of the popular vote disagrees with us, leaving about 30% of the electorate in agreement...

[Regularity]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Let us remind ourselves that, to quote Laurence Sterne, they order this matter better in France:

Shame it wasn't a picture of Alliance!

[nick_bastable]

Slowly rising to my feet

 

Point order

 

can we move on to  either Model trains or Ms A or Pyramids

 

thank you

 

Nick

Edited September 26, 2019 by nick_bastable

[Nearholmer]

Regularity - I was thinking only of the roughly-half division at the referendum. When it comes to elections, your figure is certainly nearer the mark on most occasions. K

 

Whoops! Sorry Nick, crossed in the internet.

 

So ........ Should UK railway modellers hold a vote to decide whether or not to abandon 4mm/ft scale and adopt 3.5mm/ft scale, and in so doing all related European Standards?

 

(That should be uncontroversial)

Edited September 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[nick_bastable]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Regularity - I was thinking only of the roughly-half division at the referendum. When it comes to elections, your figure is certainly nearer the mark on most occasions. K

 

Whoops! Sorry Nick, crossed in the internet.

 

So ........ 18.83mm or 18.2mm or 16.5mm: which is best?

 

(That should be uncontroversial)

actually 9.42  

 

Nick

[Nearholmer]

9.42 what?

[Donw]

At the heart of Democracy is the acceptance that others may have differing views to you and if it is the majority you have to accept their view may prevail. For anyone to try to block people being able to express their views denies democracy. Remember that incompetance is not a bar to having a vote.

 

I have tried to avoid dicussing the politics of particular cases but I do feel the overall framework is a valid subject. In particular the act of giving the Public a vote and then saying certain options are not acceptable is not at all helpful.  Give people the full facts truthfully and rely on the good sense of the majority is the only way a democracy can hold people together.

I am confident the country will be sucessful whether in or out of the EU. It may make some difference to our level of affluence but either way it will still be a good place to live.

 

Don  

 

Posted before I got to the last few posts

Edited September 26, 2019 by Donw

[Edwardian]

How civilised this chamber remains! Thanks to all for that.

 

We can probably all agree that there are absurdities in our current National Agonies worthy of satire and that it is probably necessary to seek humour in the situation lest depression overwhelm us!

 

I am sorry for leading the Parish Council along forbidden paths. Hopefully we've all now had our say and lapsed back into relaxed gentility.  

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, nick_bastable said:

Slowly rising to my feet

 

Point order

 

can we move on to  either Model trains or Ms A or Pyramids

 

thank you

 

Nick

 

Two out of three:

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

You realise you just posted a photo of a man fiddling with his piddler?

 

A “piddler” being the denerally accepted term for late-Victorian toy/model steam engines, usually of indeterminate gauge and intended as floor toys.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Annie]

Pyramids!  Or in kitset for at least.

 

[nick_bastable]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

You realise you just posted a photo of a man fiddling with his piddler?

 

A “piddler” being the denerally accepted term for late-Victorian toy/model steam engines, usually of indeterminate gauge and intended as floor toys.

 

 

probably explains why Mrs B only allows this to run a couple of times a year 

 

 

Nick

[runs as required]

And PYRAMIDS !!

I asked about  Charles Piazzi Smyth Astronomer Royal and pyramidologist several pages ago, but got drowned out  under the shellfire.

ii discovered him in stuff about the British Israelite Society (heyday in the Edwardian high point of Empire) , current headquarters in Bishop Aukland, of Prince Bishops and S&D long boiler land .

Rum Stuff !

dh

[Nearholmer]

Piazza-Smith?

 

Ah, you see, he is central to the tale of Mr O’Doolite, who was effectively apprenticed to him, the connection being that O’Doolite’s mother, Constantina, was an assistant to Charles Parsons.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, runs as required said:

 

That being so I tried using the search slot (top right of this thread) to search for 'Charles Piazzi Smyth' . It came up with nothing.

 

 

 

Some bloody Indexer you are!

 

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