The psychology of group responses to model railway product announcements

[Talltim]

Speaking as yer actual professional chartered psychologist and pre-group modeller, I just view R-T-R announcements, and the inevitable " why oh why haven't they modelled it as it was between 14th-22nd May 1966 when there  was an obvious oil leak from the nearside lubricator and the relief fireman had a different size of tea cup from the usual fireman ?! ",  with some wry amusement as I know that there will never ever  be EM gauge  R-T-R pre-WW1 M&CR  and FR engines !

I'm kinda in the same situation (without being a psychologist) as I model funny railways from other lands, which means that I can view all British model announcements pretty dispassionately. (That 7mm VIX kit did make me want one tho) Product announcement threads for foreign models on RMWeb tend to be pretty balanced. I'm sure the same carry on happens other nations forums, but I don't tend to frequent the RTR sections of those.

So I do read some of the new product threads for the popcorn value, but mainly cos you can usually also glean some proto info from them.

[Andy Y]

 The introduction of the "Agree" button has no doubt spared us from thousands upon thousands of "me too" posts. For that I am grateful.

 

 

Seemingly not in the Gold-plated BP topic where it just seems that many posters use the same words assembled into a different order which several have used before in multiple topics. Either they think that the Agree button is superfluous, they haven't read anything anyone else has written or that they've just got to have their say. Groundhog day with prices.

[woodenhead]

I work in contact centres, in charge of measuring stuff; there has always been a massive focus on how long something takes - aka the price but recently there has been a shift by our consumers towards the quality taking precedence which is good.  

 

If producer and consumer agree the level quality is right then the price becomes the price, the price should only become an issue when the perceived quality varies between the producer and the consumer.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Mornin' all,

 

I'm sure that most modellers have evolved their own psychology to ending up with the correct models (for them) on their layout. My bullet points are:

 

Which models are required on my layout?

 

Who does the best version of a particular model?

 

Will the best result come from a scratchbuild, a modified kit or modified RTR?

 

Is the required model readily available/from where/will it need a complete repaint to get it into the right era etc, or just renumbering/weathering etc?

 

Manufacturer announcements are usually meaningless in terms of timescale but if I felt that I could trust for a forthcoming model to be of the right standard and be available to buy on time then I would wait/work on different stock items instead

 

Occasionally, I'll opt for a newly released model just because it raises the bar...is of a very good standard e.g. the Sutton Locomotive Works class 24

 

Dave

[Arthur]

My bullet points are:

 

Which models are required on my layout?

etc

 

Dave

Sounds like an eminently sensible approach to me, sourcing the best model to meet your needs and aims.

[Allegheny1600]

Maybe not but I know from personal conversations that when someone's put a lot of effort into a project or burned the midnight oil in preparing information to have it dismissed with some of the selfish or stupid comments we do see here can be somewhat disheartening at a time when they'd have a reasonable expectation of some positive comment or encouragement given the efforts expended.

 

But time and again they pick themselves up and stride on frequently trying to better their efforts.

Completely agree!

A few years back when Bachmann announced a rather unusual, for the time, steam loco (L&YR 2-4-2T?) - I sent them a congratulatory message through their website. I was very flattered to recieve a complimentary email from a senior staffer within the company who was delighted with my message.

For that to happen, I guessed it was a more unusual occurrance.

Good on 'em, I say!

Cheers,

John.

[woodenhead]

I'm going to say it and probably be banned for political commenting but...

 

Under successive Old Labour governments steam engines were green, maroon or black, diesels and electrics were green or blue and coaches were blood/custard, maroon, green or blue/grey.

 

It was a simple matter for model train companies to produce lots of trains in these standard liveries.

 

Under the Conservatives & New Labour we've had all sorts of livery variations and now model train companies have to try and cover them all which they cannot do all at once so there is rationing which at times causes shortages of certain perceived popular but in reality is I am building my railway now and I want my trains mentality.

 

So there you have it, it's not Bachmann's or Hornby's fault or China's, it's the political system.  Flipping government ministers meddling in my hobby.

 

Maybe Jeremy Corbyn is a Br Blue pre-Tops modeller.

[newbryford]

I'm going to say it and probably be banned for political commenting but...

 

Under successive Old Labour governments steam engines were green, maroon or black,

 

 

 

Same under the current government.

 

Steam engines still are green, maroon or black..........

 

(Unless it's the DJM/RMweb Austerity in yellow........ - that's allowed)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Talltim]

i didn't think you liked yellow trains?

[Ozexpatriate]

A few years back when Bachmann announced a rather unusual, for the time, steam loco (L&YR 2-4-2T?) - I sent them a congratulatory message through their website. I was very flattered to recieve a complimentary email from a senior staffer within the company who was delighted with my message.

That's really nice to hear.

 

My experience with Bachmann is one of uniformly excellent responsiveness to written communications. (Mostly to do with their Collectors' Club.)

 

I smiled at the idea of 'complimentary email' - with the unintended secondary meaning. (I could start a clock to see how long it took before someone made a joke about Bachmann charging for emails.)

[Glorious NSE]

<Excitement>
The current lot seems to be to demand that everything is painted in a particularly dynamic shade of grey undercoat, highlighted with a little bit of white, just so you can tell it's supposed to be that colour and it's not just dirty...
</Excitement>

[Ozexpatriate]

Seemingly not in the Gold-plated BP topic where it just seems that many posters use the same words assembled into a different order which several have used before in multiple topics. Either they think that the Agree button is superfluous, they haven't read anything anyone else has written or that they've just got to have their say. Groundhog day with prices.

Guilty as charged m'lud.

 

When the topic appeared I didn't want to go near it - much I avoided the Peco bullhead thread. In the end I couldn't help myself. I was weak and succumbed.

 

The circular nature of the conversation now trawling over topics like 'the future of the hobby' and 'modelling what you remember' was perhaps inevitable.

[melmoth]

 

Maybe Jeremy Corbyn is a Br Blue pre-Tops modeller.

 

No, he's modelling the Deutsche Reichsbahn Berlin suburban services (post 1961) in p87.

[jjb1970]

I think the threads on the Bachmann BP, their price rises and stuff like the Hornby profit warning thread are manifestations of the same passions that the manufacturers rely on to survive. Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the BP price, somebody spending £500+ on a model train is probably pretty nutty about the hobby, the same nuttiness that drives us to spend what most normal would consider silly money on toys also promotes strong opinions about things like new models. And it is that passion and enthusiasm that creates and sustains a market that the manufacturers exist to serve and which they rely on to thrive. I think many of us can be a bit bonkers at times but I'm guessing Bachmann designers et al would much rather develop a thick skin to handle the criticism when something is poorly received than be faced with apathy and silence. We sometimes see some of the more heated threads garner responses of the "FFS its only a train sort" which is fair comment but if people weren't passionate enough to have opinions which may go over the top sometimes I think the manufacturers would be far more worried.

[Mike Storey]

Great to see the results of the poll are showing most people on here are vaguely sane.

 

How about a poll asking about the predictability of comments following the result of a poll?

 

Great stuff guys......It is after all only men people playing make believe, and we all love it in our own little way. Accuracy is not all - enjoyment is.

[47137]

My vote seems to be in the majority for most things, except I am one of the very few who voted "disappointed" when new releases are announced. I wish the manufacturers would make fewer models with longer production runs, stronger details and easier to dismantle for servicing or alteration. The current culture seems to promote buying new models "now" in case they sell out, with the second-hand market limited by limited production runs, broken details and some weathering jobs.

 

My own tipping point was buying one of the Bachmann S stock sets, which disappointed in many ways but above all struck me as rather toy-like. I sent it back and spent the refund on a dozen or so British H0 models which I am now setting about re-wheeling, detailing, repainting, even adding my own take on weathering. Then I sold my Dapol Western and other loco to buy another dozen H0 models. 

 

I have always thought of the hobby as a creative activity, and I get most pleasure from designing things and making them as well as I can. I also get satisfaction from getting a reasonably consistent standard of modelling across a layout, and I don't have the skill set to match current 00 RTR. So at the moment, the pleasure of buying new has largely faded away for me.

 

If this goes some way to explaining my vote I hope it has been worthwhile writing it here.

 

I do enjoy the hobby, even if this account probably seems a bit gloomy.

 

 

- Richard.

[John M Upton]

I am always amused when a thread appears announcing that there is going to be an announcement which is then inevitably followed by the same names copying and pasting their pipe dream wishlists of obscure model/livery/number combinations that only existed in the 12" to the foot version for a matter of days or even hours and then become dumbfounded when said item isn't announced.

[Poggy1165]

What puzzles me is people's apparent unwillingness to make small changes themselves. For example, it's not hard to get lettering off a commercial model (the techniques have been published many times in various formats) so minor changes - like 'Great Western' to shirtbutton or GW are easily accomplished, given that the basic livery remained unchanged. If it's a matter of (for example) wanting to change a plain black BR version SECR engine to the full glory of pre 1914 Wainwright livery, then I am a lot more sympathetic.

 

But then again, as a trader remarked to me about five years ago, these days people seem to want everything done for them. I suppose that in a world where many people are not willing to grate their own cheese or slice their own vegetables, it's not that surprising.

[johnarcher]

What puzzles me is people's apparent unwillingness to make small changes themselves. For example, it's not hard to get lettering off a commercial model (the techniques have been published many times in various formats) so minor changes - like 'Great Western' to shirtbutton or GW are easily accomplished, given that the basic livery remained unchanged. If it's a matter of (for example) wanting to change a plain black BR version SECR engine to the full glory of pre 1914 Wainwright livery, then I am a lot more sympathetic.

 

But then again, as a trader remarked to me about five years ago, these days people seem to want everything done for them. I suppose that in a world where many people are not willing to grate their own cheese or slice their own vegetables, it's not that surprising.

Agreed. I suppose it's different if someone is purely a collector, but if someone considers themselves a modeller yet insists that someone else should provide exactly what they want, with nothing for them to do, it is a bit odd. A bit like a painter insisting that someone else must paint the pictures for him.

NB (Before people object), this is not a criticism of all use of RTR, I've seen RTR models detailed, adapted, weathered showing some fine modelling being done, but just my personal puzzlement that anyone would expect to have nothing at all to do.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

.....an interesting avatar style addition to posts could be a pie chart icon showing how much of a posters disposible time is spent actually modelling, compared with interacting with websites such as this, or else simply operating model railways. There does seem to be a high proportion of enthusiasts who aren't prepared/aren't able to carry out basic modelling tasks.

 

Dave

[47137]

.....an interesting avatar style addition to posts could be a pie chart icon showing how much of a posters disposible time is spent actually modelling, compared with interacting with websites such as this, or else simply operating model railways. There does seem to be a high proportion of enthusiasts who aren't prepared/aren't able to carry out basic modelling tasks.

 

Dave

I suspect many active modellers don't have the time for the forums; and so the forums have a disproportionate number of commentators and armchair modellers. I think I'm lucky to work from home, so the time I might spend commuting is available to me.

 

Then again - the local club, with around 90 members, has relatively few model makers in its membership. A lot of people go along to run their favourite trains and to enjoy the social side of the hobby.

 

- Richard.

[Moxy]

Agreed. I suppose it's different if someone is purely a collector, but if someone considers themselves a modeller yet insists that someone else should provide exactly what they want, with nothing for them to do, it is a bit odd. A bit like a painter insisting that someone else must paint the pictures for him.

NB (Before people object), this is not a criticism of all use of RTR, I've seen RTR models detailed, adapted, weathered showing some fine modelling being done, but just my personal puzzlement that anyone would expect to have nothing at all to do.

 

Well said John.  If someone is a collector, they collect whatever the manufacturer puts in the box.  If you are a modeller who wants to take things out of the box and run them as they are, which is a perfectly acceptable approach to this hobby if that gives you pleasure, then surely you also have to accept that whatever the maker puts in the box is what you will get?  Complaining that it is the wrong era/livery/number (delete as appropriate) for you would seem to be pointless.

 

As a customer you have two choices when a new model you want is announced, you either buy it or you don't.  Which choice you make will depend on your approach to the hobby, if it's the wrong livery, you either buy it and repaint it, or if you are unable or unwilling to repaint it, you don't buy it and wait to see if it comes out in the correct livery next year or the year after. 

 

It is a sad reflection on society that some people seem to think they have the right to complain about everything, when if they actually stopped to think about it, they would realise their complaints are not justified.  The manufacturer has done most of the hard work for us by making the model the right shape (by and large), and since manufacturers physically cannot maintain 100's of products in 1000's of different liveries in continuous production all the time, then a little patience on the part of those customers whilst the correct era/livery comes round to its production slot would be a better approach than berating the manufacturer for not producing their chosen livery first.

[jjb1970]

The hobby is a wide one and it is something which to a certain degree is unique to each of us. Whether that is just playing trains on a train set oval, building a layout using RTR, kit building, scratch building or collecting models, the differences between us are trivial compared to the gulf between us and people that dismiss all of us as just a bunch of over age kids playing with toys.

 

On kits, I've never gotten into railway kits. I have tried over the years but often been disappointed with the quality of model railway kits compared to the standards I am used to in military vehicles and figures. So I tend to be pretty much an RTR merchant however I do enjoy scenic modelling (transferrable skills from my military modelling interest as it were). I'm sure there will be clubs that are different, but the ones I've known have pretty much depended on those in their membership who have treated them as a social club and who like to play trains on a club layout. Often the modeller members criticise that type of member without really appreciating that in many cases they probably wouldn't have a club without them.

[Rivercider]

.....an interesting avatar style addition to posts could be a pie chart icon showing how much of a posters disposible time is spent actually modelling, compared with interacting with websites such as this, or else simply operating model railways. There does seem to be a high proportion of enthusiasts who aren't prepared/aren't able to carry out basic modelling tasks.

 

Dave

That's me then!

On a previous thread I reckoned my research/modelling/operating time ratio was about 90/5/5, though I have recently spent more time shunting trucks.

Although I have made a couple of simple building kits I have never built a loco kit or wagon kit and am never likely to.

My fun comes from trying build up a representative selection of locos and wagons from what is available RTR, and operate them in a realistic manner. I seldom rush to purchase any latest release, most of my locos and stock are second hand, or 35 years old,

 

cheers

[melmoth]

.....or else simply operating model railways....

 

I suppose it rather depends on your prototype, but if you are operating your model railway as closely as you can to prototype practice, it will not necessarily be a simple thing. I'd argue that it could be as much a form of "real" modelling to operate a prototypical track plan with correctly placed signals and interlocking points, and yet have no scenery or ballast and every train hauled by one of Sodor's finest. Some of the great clockwork systems of the past such as Crewchester or the Sherwood Section worked as model railways because of how they were operated, not because of how they were built and looked.