RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 Had a strange event this afternoon was driving out of Sheringham on a 30mph road. I saw a group of people ahead,without warning a woman raised he hand and walked out into the road then shepherded a load of kids across the road. All this was before I'd stopped and she was wearing black. I stopped and asked her what she was doing and told 'they are kids!,they have to cross!' I reported it to the police, who were most interested and the school. It transpires she's a teacher and this was a trip. The head mistress told me this is what the council have told them to do. I can't believe this is legal, she had no lollipop or sign and it's only 200yds from a pelican crossing so surely she should use this. Anybody know the exact laws regarding stopping traffic. It used to be police officers and their agents and lollipop men. Stop go men are slightly different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 17, 2016 Had a strange event this afternoon was driving out of Sheringham on a 30mph road. I saw a group of people ahead,without warning a woman raised he hand and walked out into the road then shepherded a load of kids across the road. All this was before I'd stopped and she was wearing black. I stopped and asked her what she was doing and told 'they are kids!,they have to cross!' I reported it to the police, who were most interested and the school. It transpires she's a teacher and this was a trip. The head mistress told me this is what the council have told them to do. I can't believe this is legal, she had no lollipop or sign and it's only 200yds from a pelican crossing so surely she should use this. Anybody know the exact laws regarding stopping traffic. It used to be police officers and their agents and lollipop men. Stop go men are slightly different I think the rules are changing. I help organise a large event that involves traffic management - i.e. stopping traffic temporarily. The police presently carry out this duty, but there are moves to formally train others (i.e. event staff). The training is to be carried out under the auspices of the county council, in conjunction with the police. They will have the authority from the police and local council to temporarily manage traffic for the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 No idea about the legalities Russ, but very little surprises me about the high school in Sheringham (if it was the high school). My daughter has to download her homework and then watch some sort of YouTube tutorial to find out how to do it. The teachers are apparently too busy. Too busy going off on trips and jaywalking, it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 It was the primary school Pete, the teacher was very obnoxious. I've heard the high school isn't too good either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 I accept that the teacher may have been better dressed and may have been more proactively pleasant, but I also think that some people might have just accepted that the school was taking the pupils out, for whatever reason, and waited graciously for them to cross the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 I did stop, well I had no choice. Thats not really the point. If this isn't legal and there is an accident imagine the insurance liability implications. This is a main road by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 Totally agree with BoD's post....are we really discussing the semantics of letting a group of children cross the road? Mind boggled.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 It's not that Phil, it was downright dangerous. I was paying attention but I wouldn't like to think of the result if I wasn't. It was also low bright sun directly in my eyes so she was even less visible. I'm glad I don't have kids there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold melmoth Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 I did stop, well I had no choice. Thats not really the point. If this isn't legal and there is an accident imagine the insurance liability implications. This is a main road by the way I might be wrong, but wouldn't the "implications" of an accident where a group of children crossing the road were driven into by someone in a motor vehicle in a 30 mph zone be more likely to fall on the ability (or otherwise) of the driver to respond to driving conditions, control their vehicle appropriately, and the roadworthiness of said vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 I suppose it's that I think that if you are driving anywhere near a school then you should be prepared for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I never had a legal right to stop traffic, but not only did I stop traffic but I also closed the road - on many occasions. Reason, i was an engineer on emergency standby dealing with gas escapes. Make the situation safe was the first priority. We always called out the police, who were very helpful in these circumstances, planning local traffic diversions, contacting bus operators etc. Happy times !!!! In the case of the children - common sense and safety first approach needed. Anyone supervising a gang of kids on a public highway / footpath should be wearing hi-viz clothing. (A sackable offence if we did not wear ours whilst on the highway / footpath). Brit15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t8hants Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 When the crocodiles of kids are out and about over here, all the kids and the teachers wear high viz vests, which have the name of the school printed on the back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 I totally agree with both the above, that's why I stopped. But you don't expect someone just to walk out into a main road. I do it at few level crossings and know what motorists can be like, and I've got an HV vest on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I might be wrong, but wouldn't the "implications" of an accident where a group of children crossing the road were driven into by someone in a motor vehicle in a 30 mph zone be more likely to fall on the ability (or otherwise) of the driver to respond to driving conditions, control their vehicle appropriately, and the roadworthiness of said vehicle. Far more reaching than that. The school have a responsibility of care for their students at all times during school hours. They should have ensured the teacher was at a minimum wearing high visibity clothing e.g tabards as should the children have also been dressed . I have seen school groups in Malls wearing such clothing. You cant just blame a car driver everybody has responsibilities . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I saw a group of people ahead,without warning a woman raised he hand and walked out into the road then shepherded a load of kids across the road. All this was before I'd stopped and she was wearing black. Whilst pedestrians of any sort will have priority on the public highway [over mechanically propelled vehicles, anyway] , I have hilited from the OP's original post two aspects [aside from a lack of hi-vis]....of the teacher's behaviour that I would find very disturbing...from a SAFETY point of view....and from the view point of a RESPONSIBLE ADULT setting an example to those they are in charge of. Simply raising a hand, and immediately walking out into the carriageway does not constitute a good example to the children, of how to deal with a busy road. Secondly, from a safety viewpoint, it is wise to confirm that motorised or other traffic has in fact stopped, before, leaving the curb. Whilst I agree some drivers may exercise the ability to ignore pedestrians, equally, a responsible person should allow traffic to respond safely & correctly to the responsible persons' indication of intention. I would expect the correct response from the school concerned to be, to provide any staff likely to be in a similar position with proper, official training on how to conduct themselves, and large parties, on the Public Highway. I wish it to be noted, that I post my views with the intention of not considering the moral aspects which some have been determined to introduce to this thread. For the moral considerations are an entirely separate matter to the topic the OP generated. And should be dealt with as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 raised her hand and walked out into the road then shepherded a load of kids across the road. All this was before I'd stopped That's the thing. Anyone competent would have ensured the traffic was stationary before moving the kids. I pass a proper lollipop lady every day and she does this every time without fail. Which is good because I've seen cars drive clean past her before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold melmoth Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 Far more reaching than that. The school have a responsibility of care for their students at all times during school hours. They should have ensured the teacher was at a minimum wearing high visibity clothing e.g tabards as should the children have also been dressed . I have seen school groups in Malls wearing such clothing. You cant just blame a car driver everybody has responsibilities . I agree on school responsibilities, and (as an ex-teacher) can't think of a situation in my experience where hi-viz gear wasn't used for out of school walking, but you could still, for example, have a situation where everyone was in hi-viz tabards and the person in charge decided to lead them all across the road on a blind corner, so it's not a catch-all. You can't, as they say, schedule stupidity. My point was that Russ stated that "It was also low bright sun directly in my eyes so she was even less visible", which is the sort of thing that, in an insurance/liability context, is basically an unwitting admission that he were going too fast for the road conditions. My final point, going back to the OP, is that I was taught that Pelican crossings were to be avoided if possible in these situations because the duration of the crossing time is not under the control of the person supervising the crossing, and drivers tend to see the green light in such situations before they see the group still crossing. In other words, it introduces another level of uncertainty and risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 If I'm doing gates I always keep away from the gates if there is no traffic stood there as you never know if someone is going to hit the gates. I've suggested to the school that future trips use the crossing 200yds away but she said this was too far! No wonder kids today are fat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 The group would have been about 25 to 30 kids and the crossing has extra time due to the school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Totally agree with BoD's post....are we really discussing the semantics of letting a group of children cross the road? Mind boggled.... Not really. A teacher is someone who should be setting an example. The example here as I read it SHOULD be when there is a Pelican crossing use it. It was put there for a reason. Possibly to let children (and adults) cross a busy road in safety. The lesson actiually taught is to step out into the road in the face of oncomming traffic and stick a hand (or better still fingers up at the motorist) Said motorist may well be able to stop in time (if you are lucky) and when they do just give them some verbal abuse. Its OK for teachers to do it so why not children? The teacher should be on disciplinary at least. Actually what is the penalty for endangering the lives of children. As a parent I would be onto the school govenors, local authority and press as a start (IMO that teacher shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children). If it is alright to condone this behaviour just because it is children then it must be alright for children to break all the rules of the road.... and some people wonder why there are stupid things happening on level crossings ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 The guidelines for the 'Walking Bus' for getting children to or from school give some good ground rules for a similar situation. Beside saying that all adults and children should have hi-vis, an adult at the front and the back and a ratio of no more than 8 children per adult it contains the following paragraphs • When a road needs to be crossed, children should be re-aligned into rows six abreast, so they can cross the road more quickly and not straggle out. Escorting parents should stand at either side of this block until they are ready to cross. Once crossed, get the children back into their pairs. • Remember you are not allowed to stop traffic in order to let the children cross, though often, in practice it will stop for you. If this happens, take care that traffic has stopped in both directions and that the cars behind have seen what is going on and do not try to overtake. Having said that, we should always remember some things i was taught about driving/motorbiking/cycling. First to drive in a manner which gives you chance to stop safely without hitting anything given the traffic on the road and the weather conditions, secondly never assume what anyone else's actions will be - always be ready for the unexpected to happen, because you can be damned sure it will on a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 Thanks for that, as I've said I was ready to stop an luckily so was the bloke behind. But it could have been a lot worse ,it was just so unexpected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 My final point, going back to the OP, is that I was taught that Pelican crossings were to be avoided if possible in these situations because the duration of the crossing time is not under the control of the person supervising the crossing, and drivers tend to see the green light in such situations before they see the group still crossing. In other words, it introduces another level of uncertainty and risk. Bad teaching. No uncertainty and no risk. The group should be split into manageable cohorts. If the number of children is too large to use the official safe crossing point within the defined period then there are no enough "adults" supervising the party as a group. I have witnessed similer groups of children on a similar break from lesons near here. For a start they are always seen with bright fluorecent tabards, but just as importantly the groups are well diciplined and have at least 2 "adults" a lead and a tail supervisor. Often with at least one other to manage the whole process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 17, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 Thanks Kenton, to be perfectly honest I didn't realise it was a school trip until the headmistress told me. I thought it was a few mothers with pre school kids on their way to pick up other kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium wagonbasher Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 17, 2016 It does sound as though your teacher behaved irresponsibly. Every day highway maintenance worker, builder or his mates riding shotgun put their hands up and stop the traffic so that a lorry, a skip lorry, a cement mixer can manoeuvre safely in and out of a house or a building site. Thank goodness they do... a chap in a high viz raises his hand and we all stop whilst his mate reverses in to or out of the site. As I understand it that person has no legal right to stop the traffic.. I also believe that the police do not have the right just to stop traffic only with a court issued permission. All I can say is thank goodness most folk stop traffic responsibly and we all stop responsibly.. it appears on this occasion that less care was taken Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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