LED Points Route Indicators

[Grimberian]

Hi Folks,

 

I'm going to hold my hands up here and say I've been confused by wiring diagrams!

 

I am shortly (in the next week or so) going to buy all the points I need to my layout.  I have been looking at the SEEP points motors, as they look the easiest to mount under my baseboard.

 

So, CDU, points motors, switches, all good, I get how that all works.

 

What I would like to do in the future once I have things up and running is to introduce some sort of LED indicators on my not-yet-built control panel so I can see which route is selected.  I have had a look at my go-to electrical site (Brian-lambert.co.uk) and am a bit confused. 

 

So my question are:

 

1. Which SEEP motor would be the best to buy now If I want to go for this in the future.

2. Can someone provide me with a simplified diagram (if there is such a thing) of how it would work?

 

Appreciate all the help and support I have had so far on my build!

 

Paul.

 

EDIT: It's a DC Layout

[Ray H]

Brian will probably pop up himself later but in the interim we'd possibly need to know whether you plan to use live frog (Electrofrog) or insulated frog (Insulfrog) points as that could make a solution more or less simple.

[Baby Deltic]

You could use the auxilliary switch on the SEEP point motor to switch the route indicator LED's although the construction of the switch is somewhat basic and possibly not failsafe. Another approach would be to use 'flip-flop' relays. These have two coils and can be latched in either state. The relay, if double pole change over, could be used to not only switch the route indicator, but also switch the point frog polarity. Flip-flop relays can be fairly expensive, and you would need one which has a coil rating matching the CDU voltage. The relay coils could be connected across the point motor coils to switch at exactly the same time. I was lucky enough to get a tube of these relays from a local electronics supplier who tipped me off that they were clearing them from stock.

[Grimberian]

Thanks Ray,

I'm using Insulfrog points.

Cheers

[Baby Deltic]

Thanks Ray,

I'm using Insulfrog points.

Cheers

 In that case you won't need to switch frog. I would be tempted to try using the built in switch and see how reliable it is. What voltage do you intend to use for the LED's.

[Baby Deltic]

Yes, if you buy them from a model railway shop from a model railway manufacturer, who makes quite a mint on these

 

But if you know where to look, they're much cheaper!

 

Suggestion 1  Suggestion 2

 

BTW, what BD meant by "flip-flop relay" is actually named a bistable relay

 

HTH!

 

PS: no affiliation to any of these shops, chances are I have never done business with them either!

Indeed. They are also known as 'latching' relays.

[Baby Deltic]

Looking at the pin count on the relays in suggestion 2, the look like they might latch and unlatch by coil polarity reversal.

[Baby Deltic]

I use Panasonic TX2SA-L2-24V's because my Seep motors are running off a CDU at 24V DC. When Rapid Electronics were having a stock clearout I bought them all for a pittance. They have two separate coils and are DPDT.

 

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TX2SA-L2-24V-X/255-3843-1-ND/3885596

[Baby Deltic]

@BD:    Looks like you're right, didn't notice that  

 

They'd be ok on an AC supply with a couple of diodes on the point switch to control half wave polarity.

[dave parker]

hi try using Heathcote Electronics point indicator supplied with leds and sufficient for 4 relays. I have used two sets of these and work excellent

Details can be found on there website

cheers Dave

[DCB]

Just wondering why you need route indication with DC, obviously it is crucial with DCC if you can't see which road is set but with DC and power only going to the route set why not just set the route you want each time?  

[Crosland]

@BD:    Looks like you're right, didn't notice that  

I can't actually see where it says they are latching.

[njee20]

Just wondering why you need route indication with DC, obviously it is crucial with DCC if you can't see which road is set but with DC and power only going to the route set why not just set the route you want each time?

What difference does DC make...? I'd still want to know which route I'd set into a fiddle yard etc.

[Oakydoke]

Sorry folks, not wanting to ruffle any feathers, but this all sounds crazy to me.

First a cheap point motor is chosen, with a poor reputation for the long term reliabilty of its inbuilt switch (acknowledged earlier in the thread).

Then there are suggestions to cobble together extra components to provide an alternative method of switching, introducing extra complexity and wiring, not to mention introducing another point of potential failure.

Why not just opt for a better point motor with a more robust and reliable built-in switch, or is that too simple?

 

Is this a case of choosing Heath Robinson and madness over simplicity and common sense, or am I missing something?

Help me out please.

[Baby Deltic]

Sorry folks, not wanting to ruffle any feathers, but this all sounds crazy to me.

First a cheap point motor is chosen, with a poor reputation for the long term reliabilty of its inbuilt switch (acknowledged earlier in the thread).

Then there are suggestions to cobble together extra components to provide an alternative method of switching, introducing extra complexity and wiring, not to mention introducing another point of potential failure.

Why not just opt for a better point motor with a more robust and reliable built-in switch, or is that too simple?

Is this a case of choosing Heath Robinson and madness over simplicity and common sense, or am I missing something?

Help me out please.

I've been using Seep point motors on Sumatra Road for years and they have been 100% reliable. You're still going to add complexity to wiring if you are wiring back route indicators to a control panel anyway, so what's the difference?

[melmerby]

I've been using Seep point motors on Sumatra Road for years and they have been 100% reliable.

No doubt there are several on here who would say the opposite.

The inbuilt switch is a joke.

 

Keith

[Baby Deltic]

No doubt there are several on here who would say the opposite.

The inbuilt switch is a joke.

 

Keith

I don't use it. No need.

[DCB]

What difference does DC make...? I'd still want to know which route I'd set into a fiddle yard etc.

I just think it is a lot of complication for not a lot of benefit

 

You need an indication with DCC   With DC the wrong train will move with the points correctly set. With DCC a train can move with the points set against it and cause a massive derailment....  The massive problem with DCC is working out which loco is which when you cannot see them. Personally I don't care whether Westwood Hall, Hagley Hall, Ragley Hall, Athelhampton Hall  or the other one who's name I have forgotten is on the "Vaccum". If the Vaccum is in road 4 I just set the points with the selector, push the operating button and off it goes.

No need to work out which loco is heading it.

 

I use H and M motors when I can afford / find them and Peco otherwise fed by a big capacitor and 16 volts DC through diode matrixes with dead loads to balance any inequality in the points thrown. The route indication can easily be dome by micro switches bearing on the operating mechanism on the H and Ms which have ferocious over centre springs, and probably on Tortoises feeding rows of LEDs

[MarkAllen]

Morning.

I've been considering for while now the best way to do this and I personally will be investing in a mega points controller and using the switch function to have a route indicated. Lots of YouTube videos and looks really simple to install. 12 motors for around £75. Not got one yet but it looks easy and has the ability to be expanded with other bit and bobs. Check out www.loolee.org

[Suzie]

Sorry folks, not wanting to ruffle any feathers, but this all sounds crazy to me.

First a cheap point motor is chosen, with a poor reputation for the long term reliabilty of its inbuilt switch (acknowledged earlier in the thread).

Then there are suggestions to cobble together extra components to provide an alternative method of switching, introducing extra complexity and wiring, not to mention introducing another point of potential failure.

Why not just opt for a better point motor with a more robust and reliable built-in switch, or is that too simple?

 

Is this a case of choosing Heath Robinson and madness over simplicity and common sense, or am I missing something?

Help me out please.

The OP stated that he wanted to use Seep motors (for whatever reason!) so people have given solutions that get around the shortcomings of the Seeps. There are a lot of better solutions that don't involve Seep motors.

 

If simplicity of wiring and reliability is order of the day then DPDT switches operating Tortoise motors with a bi-colour LED in series for panel indication will be much easier and probably cheaper (no big PSU and CDU, 7/02 wiring instead of big fat wiring, only two wires to the motor instead of six...)

[Baby Deltic]

The OP stated that he wanted to use Seep motors (for whatever reason!) so people have given solutions that get around the shortcomings of the Seeps. There are a lot of better solutions that don't involve Seep motors.

 

If simplicity of wiring and reliability is order of the day then DPDT switches operating Tortoise motors with a bi-colour LED in series for panel indication will be much easier and probably cheaper (no big PSU and CDU, 7/02 wiring instead of big fat wiring, only two wires to the motor instead of six...)

Toroise's are very good, but very expensive and you still have to have all the extra wiring back to the panel for the route indicators.

[Colin_McLeod]

One reason to want an indication of which way points are set is that we are railway modellers so why not model a panel that shows point setting like in a prototype signal cabin. DC or DCC does not come into it. There is something fulfilling in a working indicator panel itself.

[Baby Deltic]

One reason to want an indication of which way points are set is that we are railway modellers so why not model a panel that shows point setting like in a prototype signal cabin. DC or DCC does not come into it. There is something fulfilling in a working indicator panel itself.

Absolutely right, Colin. Moreover on some layouts where you cannot physically see the points, it's very important to be able to check, at a glance, which way they have been set. On my exhibition layout, you cannot see some of the points because of the sheer amount of bridges and buildings. Sending a train the wrong way at a show can be rather embarrassing.

[Baby Deltic]

What I will say about Seep motors is keep them lubricated and they'll be fine. I find 24V DC works very well as long as it comes from a CDU and not for a prolonged period which could damage the coils.

[Suzie]

Toroise's are very good, but very expensive and you still have to have all the extra wiring back to the panel for the route indicators.

 

No extra wiring back to the panel, the bi-colour LED goes in series with one of the motor wires.

 

By the time you have bought the Seep (and fiddled around for an hour trying to get it set in the right place), the high current operating switch or buttons, the latching relay (because you will have given up trying to get the integrated switch working reliably), the CDU, the big PSU and six colours of wire (some of it fat and expensive) the Seep does not come out quite as cheap as you might think.