Aspergers - Adult Diagnosis

[Ozexpatriate]

The biggest problem I have with this test is the way that the 'answers' are formulated (definitely agree, slightly agree, etc).

 

Now I may be wrong here, but I can only agree or disagree* with something; there are no degrees of agreement, or are there?

 

*Or sit on the fence

Yes, there are gradations of (dis)agreement. Just as there are gradations of beauty. That's what makes the human thought process so unique: it's different for every person.

I'm a lapsed engineer, working with a lot of engineers and IT people, and this topic causes endless trouble around here. If I ask a lot of my colleagues "Do you think its chilly today?", their response won't be something like "Yes, seems a bit chilly", it will be something like "If you define the exact temperature, wind speed, and relative humidity that you deem to constitute 'chilly', I will measure the variables for you, and return a neatly binary answer".

This is the Sensing/Intuition axis of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. I suspect that the 'slightly' answers are important to scoring the instrument in the OP.

 

Not wanting to go completely off topic but for some reason I've been thinking a lot about the concept of how we measure things using words lately. Particularly with binary pairs of words (like agree and disagree) such as the following:

 

right / wrong

correct / incorrect

accurate / inaccurate

precise / imprecise

 

I don't want to go off topic here, but I suspect that thinking about Aspergers and the Autism spectrum the definitive 'value' people place on usage of those words has some relevance here. These words are so overloaded with nuance.

 

If we make the statement:

 

2 + 3 = 4

 

We could interchangeably use the words "wrong", "incorrect" and "inaccurate" and less so "imprecise" to describe it. Mathematically I'm most inclined to use "incorrect".  I'd prefer to reserve right / wrong for the philosophical/moral questions.

 

We could even say it is "accurate" and perhaps "imprecise" if we change it to 

 

2 + 3 = 4±1

 

Looking at posts here, I often hesitate to click "agree" even if I might agree with the tone of a post and most of what is stated. In this case I will often click "like". But I also click "like" to posts I find thoughtful, even when I don't necessarily agree. 

 

Having seen the outcome, RMweb is better for having the "disagree" button removed - for a number of reasons, but in part because these words often really don't (or shouldn't) have binary outcomes.

 

I ask seriously, do people diagnosed with Aspergers (or on the Autism spectrum) prefer to have rigorous classification over dealing with nuance?

Edited April 22, 2016 by Ozexpatriate

[griffgriff]

My wife said: "Please go to the store and buy a carton of milk and if they have eggs, get six."

I came back with 6 cartons of milk She said, "Why in the hell did you buy six cartons of milk?"

"They had eggs!"

One of the things apart from the clumsiness that my son who had dyspraxia rather than the nursery diagnosis of autism is a problem following instructions. He would have probably bought back 6 cartons of milk. For physical tasks he still needs absolutely specific instructions.

I think the problem there is literal understanding. Never explain things using analogies to someone with ASD.

 

Griff

[Ian J.]

I ask seriously, do people diagnosed with Aspergers (or on the Autism spectrum) prefer to have rigorous classification over dealing with nuance?

 

Though not yet diagnosed, I do prefer things to be classified properly. I don't like imprecise ways of describing things, I like words to be used that actually mean what they are meant to. Having said that, and leading to the next quoted post, I do understand the reason for and the usage of words in Shakespeare's plays, and he wrangled and mangled language to the extreme in order to fit the way he wanted it spoken.

 

I think the problem there is literal understanding. Never explain things using analogies to someone with ASD.

 

Griff

 

Now, this is where I am atypical. While I don't consider myself a lover of language, I understand metaphor, analogy, irony, and other language elements normally without issue (with only occasional stumbles).

 

But, thinking about my own aborted attempts to write novels, I have come to feel that there are things, less in language and more in social observation that I don't get. When I try to tell writers that try to encourage me to 'go out and watch people' to learn about people in order to write characters, I ask 'what am I looking for?' The trouble is they don't ever grasp that I don't see whatever it is they see. I need to be told what it is I'm looking for to be able to observe it (when it comes to people). Obvious emotion I can see, but the subtle signs are completely opaque to me.

[Tony_S]

I think the problem there is literal understanding. Never explain things using analogies to someone with ASD.

Griff

Matthew's dyspraxia seemed to feature also not following instructions issued generally to a group rather than addressed specifically to him. This caused terrible problems at school even when the educational psychologist explained it to his teachers. Fortunately somewhere along the line he has developed strategies to cope and is doing well academically now.

[BG John]

I ask seriously, do people diagnosed with Aspergers (or on the Autism spectrum) prefer to have rigorous classification over dealing with nuance?

A common characteristic is "all or nothing" thinking, or seeing things as black or white. So rigorous classification is more likely to be understood than nuance. From what I can see of myself, I don't think in an all or nothing way, but when I'm under pressure or in a difficult situation I act that way. I'm too overwhelmed by the situation, and am not good at communicating under pressure, so can't negotiate a deal or a compromise. I either put up with it, or have to walk away. It's what I've done with all the big difficult situations in my life.

 

In a more mundane situation I find clarity helps too. If you invite me to visit you at 2pm on Tuesday, I'll be there. But if you invite me to call in sometime when I'm passing, I'm very unlikely to. I won't be sure if I'd actually be welcome, or if you were just being polite but didn't mean it, and I'd be anxious as well as unsure.

 

Of course I haven't got a diagnosis yet, so it could be just me being screwed up in others ways, although it fits with what I've read on the subject.

[BG John]

Now, this is where I am atypical. While I don't consider myself a lover of language, I understand metaphor, analogy, irony, and other language elements normally without issue (with only occasional stumbles).

Me too. I'm always thinking up analogies for things I'm trying to describe, both to real people, and to the person in my head who I'm constantly talking all this stuff over with. And before anyone suggests I have schizophrenia, that's one thing the psychologist ruled out quite quickly!!

[Ozexpatriate]

I do prefer things to be classified properly. I don't like imprecise ways of describing things, I like words to be used that actually mean what they are meant to. 

A common characteristic is "all or nothing" thinking, or seeing things as black or white. So rigorous classification is more likely to be understood than nuance. From what I can see of myself, I don't think in an all or nothing way, but when I'm under pressure or in a difficult situation I act that way. I'm too overwhelmed by the situation, and am not good at communicating under pressure, so can't negotiate a deal or a compromise.

I like language to be precise but one of the beauties of the English language is it's ability to express nuance.

 

I can imagine how difficult a word like "right" would be with all the context required to process it:

• morally proper
• an accurate statement or answer (3 + 2 = 5, Queen Elizabeth II is 90 years old)
• most advantageous of two options
• handed, as in dexter (not sinister)
• conservative wing (versus liberal)
• orthogonal (90°) angle
• entitlement

etc, And that's without going though a bunch of dictionary definitions. Many of these are heavily nuanced.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian J.]

Me too. I'm always thinking up analogies for things I'm trying to describe, both to real people, and to the person in my head who I'm constantly talking all this stuff over with. And before anyone suggests I have schizophrenia, that's one thing the psychologist ruled out quite quickly!!

 

Ditto. I'm pretty sure I don't have schizophrenia either, though I've never been assessed for it specifically.

 

I used to think in more black and white terms when I was younger, but as I got into my twenties I began to find coping mechanisms for it which have filtered back into my thinking such that I tend to stress everything's grey these days and find it difficult to be pure B&W. I have been told my thinking can be 'rigid' though, which might be a remnant of more B&W thought processes from childhood.

 

Another thing I do now is think both 'subjectively' and 'objectively' - in childhood I never used to do that, I had a subjective outlook. Life experience has dulled that and meant I hold both an inner view for me and also an outer view for the outside world at the same time. I don't think that 'cognitive dissonance' is an Aspergers thing, but for me I think it's something I've cultivated as a coping mechanism of sorts.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Ian J.

[jjb1970]

I think it is easy to generalise about many of these behavioural traits/disorders. I've long suspected that I've got some degree of ADHD as I fidget all the time and have an attention span measured in seconds much of the time yet it's never bothered me, hindered me at work or in personal relationships nor caused me any issues in a career in engineering.

[Nearholmer]

This I has to be one of the most interesting threads on RMWeb yet.

 

A few further thoughts:

 

- I don't think that simply maintaining an internal dialogue is a sign of schizophrenia (I certainly hope it isn't ......).

 

- Myers Briggs is very good, better IMHO than Belbin, although they may have different in tented purposes.

 

- how ones responses/"personality" change under pressure is also very interesting. I once did a very sophisticated MB, which assessed style under varying levels of stress. My natural place is INTJ, and under increasing pressure I gradually morph to a style that I can't remember the letters for, but is basically "ranting demagogue" (Margaret Thatcher and Vladimir Putin apparently come out INTJ, and one can imagine "ranting demagogue" coming out under stress in either case!)

 

- I very much empathise with BGJ's "put up with it or walk away" comment. And, having always operated like that, concur that it can lead to unintended outcomes.

 

- language, and the nuances thereof: what a wonderfully gigantic subject. I think that we may be especially privileged to speak English, because, at bare minimum, we have two words for anything, one Latin/French-root, and one Germanic-root, but often a few extras too, and the different versions usually have very subtly different meanings.

 

My only hope is that all these musing help the OP ........ Although I'm not entirely sure how!

 

K

[Ian J.]

My only hope is that all these musing help the OP ........ Although I'm not entirely sure how!

 

K

 

It's a useful conversation, bringing bits and pieces of information to light that can be confirming or not regarding my own understanding of whatever condition I do or don't have.

 

[skipepsi]

This variety of responses is the reason it is called a spectrum. What hasn't been discussed is those locked into their own small world they have a triad of impairment which restricts their interactions with the world, some autistic children will become adults by age but will always need support in everything they do.

[leopardml2341]

It's a useful conversation, bringing bits and pieces of information to light that can be confirming or not regarding my own understanding of whatever condition I do or don't have.

 

IMHO, the only cindition you think you may have is the one that you're uncomfortable with; after all isn't that what they're trying to measure?

 

A 'condition' is something that someone thinks is outside the norm, but if you're happy why should it be a 'condition', don't succumb to trying to confirm with someone elses 'norm'.

[PhilH]

As an aside who invented normal anyway?

 

Of course we all have to muck along with each other and not cause others too much strife but this idea of what society calls normal...boring, stereotypical, never thinking outside the box, non inventive, unimaginative, does that cover it? I don't know but when I think of people I know the ones I probably like the best are those who are what might be called different in one respect or another.

 

The ones I like the least aren't.

[leopardml2341]

Wot 'e said ^^^^^^

[skipepsi]

Recently the name has been changed to ASS to change it from a disorder to a syndrome I am not convinced that it is a helpful move.

[BG John]

It's a useful conversation, bringing bits and pieces of information to light that can be confirming or not regarding my own understanding of whatever condition I do or don't have.

 

I've found that I've been piecing together information from various books, web sites and forums that's relevant to me. Some things I've read really made me doubt if I'm on the right track, as I don't identify with it at all, but then I come across something that really does explain things.

[BG John]

As an aside who invented normal anyway?

Largely another minority, the sociopaths who run the planet by manipulating the majority in their own interests. I suspect that without their influence, most people would be more tolerant of differences.

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

Comparing your thoughts with how my brain seems to work.

 

A few further thoughts:

 

- I don't think that simply maintaining an internal dialogue is a sign of schizophrenia (I certainly hope it isn't ......).

Not sure as it is difficult to know whether the way I tend to talk / swear at / cajole / insult myself in my mind or normal

 

- Myers Briggs is very good, better IMHO than Belbin, although they may have different in tented purposes.

Never really done a proper test I can remember. Times I have played with online ones I come out as ISTP. From 2 results I can find these were:-

 

Introvert(67%)

Sensing(12%)

Thinking(62%)

Perceiving(44)%

 

and

 

Introverted 44

Sensing 12

Thinking 50

Perceiving 33

 

- how ones responses/"personality" change under pressure is also very interesting. I once did a very sophisticated MB, which assessed style under varying levels of stress. My natural place is INTJ, and under increasing pressure I gradually morph to a style that I can't remember the letters for, but is basically "ranting demagogue" (Margaret Thatcher and Vladimir Putin apparently come out INTJ, and one can imagine "ranting demagogue" coming out under stress in either case!)

For me it very much depends on the pressure. Give me one task to do under pressure and without planning and I tend to cope pretty well(I tend not to like planning - and when I plan things I tend to over plan them so much that nothing happens). Throw several things at me at once under pressure and the chances are none will get done.

 

- I very much empathise with BGJ's "put up with it or walk away" comment. And, having always operated like that, concur that it can lead to unintended outcomes.

Same here. No chance I will negotiate a price on something. If the price is reasonable for something I (might) want and can afford then I will buy it; if the price is unreasonable then I will walk away with pretty much no chance I will buy it.

 

- language, and the nuances thereof: what a wonderfully gigantic subject. I think that we may be especially privileged to speak English, because, at bare minimum, we have two words for anything, one Latin/French-root, and one Germanic-root, but often a few extras too, and the different versions usually have very subtly different meanings.

This for me is an odd one. Sometimes I do land up agonising over whether a word I am using is precisely right for the way I am thinking, but with my memory / vocabulary I quite often can't think of a better word.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Ian J.]

IMHO, the only cindition you think you may have is the one that you're uncomfortable with; after all isn't that what they're trying to measure?

 

A 'condition' is something that someone thinks is outside the norm, but if you're happy why should it be a 'condition', don't succumb to trying to confirm with someone elses 'norm'.

 

Internally I'm comfortable with the way I am, as such. The problem comes when the outside world* tries to invade and force me to fit its way of doing things according to what it thinks everyone should be capable of, which at best I struggle with, and at worst, fail at completely.

 

*the outside world includes those in authority who I can't avoid, be it government departments or employers.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Ian J.

[Metr0Land]

This I has to be one of the most interesting threads on RMWeb yet.

 

 

- Myers Briggs is very good, better IMHO than Belbin, although they may have different in tented purposes.

 

K

 

Well they certainly have different applications, so I think a comparative like 'better' is a bit out of place.

 

Myers-Briggs (and plenty of others) are about assessing individual characteristics.

 

Belbin to my mind is the only one that's described/predicted accurately how groups behave, so when I was a manager I found myself using both.

[Nearholmer]

"Intended purposes" = "applications", more or less, in my mind (I think the night under canvas resulted from auto-correct).

 

I have seen MB used in a team context, and it gives a really rich understanding, but it takes an age, and is expensive, whereas B gets to a good approximation more quickly.

 

As you say, horses for courses. And,there are some other ones around too.

 

K

[Ian J.]

Here's an analogy for how I feel the world and I don't quite get on: I'm a two-pin socket, and the world has a three-pin plug. Somewhere there needs to be an adapter, but for all of my life it hasn't been there...

[alastairq]

I've spotted this thread rather late in the day.

 

My son has received a 'statement' as  a very young child, identifying him as being on the autistic spectrum.

 

To be precise in some respects, he possess some characteristics of Asperger's, and various others.

 

We [his parents] identified issues when he was barely 2.

 

{Whether autists gain the difference from genetics, or whether it is a result of early [but, some may say, dodgy] chemical intervention is a moot point [ hence, why the multi function MMR jab was shunned by so many?]

 

Very early on, we recognized that, given the way our illustrious society works......our son needed to have his issues identified, recorded, etc [statemented]....because without that [ie, WE bury our heads in the sand over his differences?],  our son would not receive the vital support he would need, especially once entering our great & gloriously impartial education system!

 

This attitude came as a result of realising exactly how long-winded such a process can be....especially when there are so many influences in the process,who are governed solely by financial interests.

 

I can fully understand why some strive to over-emphasise disabilities, syndromes, conditions, etc.....because simply to obtain even a modicum of assistance from society [the Sate.. which owes this to us all........]....which seems to have a financial priority,  over a person's needs.....is made ever more difficult to achieve.

I'm glad neither of us parents had our heads in the sand...and tried to deny there is an issue.

 

For our son, now 17, really is able to achieve.  Had he been left to the vagaries of the 'normal' education system, I dread to think what problems he might now have.

 

For the present education system cannot, and indeed, doesn't have the will to, be flexible enough to cope with those kids who need support in some form or another.

 

[because the emphasis these days is on performance, results, statistics, and trying to look good, in  the eyes of prospective parents. Not, providing education and help to the whole spectrum of kids who, locally, may normally want to come through their doors.  For evidence, look underneath, at many of the new academies, and prospective academies? Look at the sort of individual in charge of them? It's all about Business before kids!]

 

The real problem here isn't the Autist, wherever they are.......it's the society we live in, promulgate, and encourage creation of.

 

What happened 50 or 70 years ago, bears no relation to what we should be doing now. As a Society we ought to have advanced since those days.  Sadly, all too often, I think, the one thing that has failed to advance, is peoples' attitudes!

 

We have a society where, for ease and cheapness of use, it is better to rigidly pigeonhole people.  Witness how difficult it is to accurately categorize what one does for a living?

 

Given that, the categories that exist on every computer [software]... have been placed there by someone who basically hasn't a clue, and could not care less anyway?  I cannot successfully identify my job description  when applying for car insurance......heaven help me when I go to claim my long-overdue bus pass!

 

But, being flexible, costs money...and the State [us, the [people we vote for, etc] do not want to spend money...certainly not on things that have real importance. We do not live in a Caring State.

 

Not the State's fault, but ours!

 

 

To the OP,  I hope you resolve the issue to suit yourself. Not some underpaid individual in a  government department.

 

From my viewpoint, I am completely comfortable standing up in front of 50 people,and delivering a lesson/lecture/whatever. [51, and I get a bit twitchy!]

 

Yet, if I happen to wander into a pub, I rarely if ever strike up a conversation with anybody. Since I can sit at home ad drink a beer, where I don't  feel I have to talk to anybody, I don't bother with pubs much...unless it is to go and eat....something I am happy to do on my own!

 

I have many times been married, which may say something about my ability to sustain a long-standing relationship? Yet, I receive [and send] birthday and Xmas cards to my ex-wives...and as a result, can catch up on all the goings-on in their lives, and mine.

 

I happily chat [and help] my neighbours..yet I don't feel I want to pop round for a cuppa!

 

I certainly don't give dinner parties....or attend them.....and would feel uncomfortable entertaining folk, on my own...

 

Yet, that doesn't mean I wont, or haven't....

 

I hate crowds....[i dislike exhibitions for that reason]....and i like to 'avoid' clubs.....so I guess I like to be  'alone'....yet I don't feel 'lonely'....

 

But, my son spends half his time at Dad's....and is no problem whatsoever....in fact, I get along superbly with him....and his Mum.[especially since we no longer live together....doesn't mean we're not still a family!]

 

But my approach to life certainly does not fit in with Society's ideas of how someone in my position should live, and conduct themselves.

 

Maybe I have elements of autism in my make-up? Probably so....I know my last late father in law did.....and he was once  a senior figure within our Armed Forces!

 

The concept some have that these differences can be cured, is one I find abhorrent & ignorant...and symptomatic of today's all-too-prevalent reactionary attitudes among people.

 

What needs curing, is Society..[ie, those of us who think we're normal?}

 

For society's inability to adapt, at the very highest levels even, is something I find shameful.

[BG John]

It would be hard to imagine a world without people with Aspergers. Many of the people who have made the big discoveries, and created new products, that have shaped the world, may well be, or have been, on the spectrum. People like Einstein, Newton, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and many others are often mentioned. I read somewhere that maybe the first tools were made by an Aspie, chipping away at a bit of flint in the back of a cave, while the rest of the tribe were sitting round the camp fire enjoying themselves! We/they (not sure of that one for another 10 days!) are a vital part of our world, and rather than being treated as a drain on society, need the opportunity to fulfil their potential, and support with the areas where they struggle.

 

Hans Asperger took big risks to convince the Nazis that the people he dealt with weren't defective and should be exterminated, but had something valuable to contribute to society.