Garethp8873 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) I've two Midland Railway Opens that are going away for refurbishment work but I need to know what diagrams they belong to. Can anyone identify them for me please? Edited May 22, 2016 by Garethp8873 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Left; D.299 & right; D.302 or D.663A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Do you know the kit maker for the second wagon? Ive never seen that one before as a kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 Left; D.299 & right; D.302 or D.663A Thanks Bill, that means I can now replicate 75036 for the first one and either 20261, 93792, 83721, 17071 or 6469 for the second one that are in Midland Wagons Vol.1. Do you know the kit maker for the second wagon? Ive never seen that one before as a kit. To be honest Spit, I always thought this one to be a Slaters wagon because of it's Midland Railway origins. I bought it in a wagon lot several years ago on ebay but I wouldn't know it's maker I'm afraid. I always happen to come across the rare and unusual wagons without me knowing...!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 To be honest Spit, I always thought this one to be a Slaters wagon because of it's Midland Railway origins. I bought it in a wagon lot several years ago on ebay but I wouldn't know it's maker I'm afraid. I always happen to come across the rare and unusual wagons without me knowing...!!Definitely not Slaters. Can tell by the buffers(slaters always uses turned heads), the axleboxes are crude compared to slaters mouldings, the overall crispness of the mould is less than slaters quality, and the brake lever looks more Cambrian than Slaters, although I know Cambrian do not do a Midland open, though I wish they did. Actually, looking at it again, for some reason there is a D shaped plate on the solebar. That was I believe LMS design. Could you post a photo of the underside of this mystery kit? Might help shed light on the maker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 The second one is definitely D633 as it is clearly longer than the D299. I can't remember who did the kit in 4mm. There was a white metal kit in 7mm from Oldbury. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 The second one is definitely D633 as it is clearly longer than the D299. I can't remember who did the kit in 4mm. There was a white metal kit in 7mm from Oldbury. It is an early 4mm Cambrian plastic wagon kit. Long out of production. Does David Geen do one now? Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) I have a couple of 4mm Midland wagon kits, similar to the Dia 302 and/or D663A - vertical strapping halfway between drop door and ends, but this kit has an end door too, the other end is fix and has wooden end posts. I have no paperwork, packaging etc., and they are likely to have been in my to do box for nearly 30 years. I have Midland Wagons Vol. 1. but, probably me, I can't see this combination in the pictures. It looks similar to the photo of 93166 above, but with end door. What diagram do I have, please. Edited January 17, 2017 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) I have a couple of 4mm Midland wagon kits, similar to the Dia 302 and/or D663A - vertical strapping halfway between drop door and ends, but this kit has an end door too, the other end is fix and has wooden end posts. I have no paperwork, packaging etc., and they are likely to have been in my to do box for nearly 30 years. I have Midland Wagons Vol. 1. but, probably me, I can't see this combination in the pictures. It looks similar to the photo of 93166 above, but with end door. What diagram do I have, please. Could it be a D352? or is it even Midland? Could be a representation of an old PO wagon bought by the Midland. Edited January 17, 2017 by Spitfire2865 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Could it be a D352? No, that has angled strapping, not the vertical. .. and it is Midland Rly., not LMS, or at least I can't see one LMS Wagons Vol 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I have a couple of 4mm Midland wagon kits, similar to the Dia 302 and/or D663A - vertical strapping halfway between drop door and ends, but this kit has an end door too, the other end is fix and has wooden end posts. I have no paperwork, packaging etc., and they are likely to have been in my to do box for nearly 30 years. I have Midland Wagons Vol. 1. but, probably me, I can't see this combination in the pictures. It looks similar to the photo of 93166 above, but with end door. What diagram do I have, please. An end door wagon needs to have diagonal straps at the door end to support the pivot bar of the door. If you models don't have these then I would suggest that they don't represent any diagrams. If they have diagonal straps at the door end and vertical ones between the side doors and the fixed end, then the wagon are likely to be D. 351 as the vehicle straps seem to have been added to a number of wagons to strengthen the planking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 An end door wagon needs to have diagonal straps at the door end to support the pivot bar of the door. If you models don't have these then I would suggest that they don't represent any diagrams. If they have diagonal straps at the door end and vertical ones between the side doors and the fixed end, then the wagon are likely to be D. 351 as the vehicle straps seem to have been added to a number of wagons to strengthen the planking. Bill, on the outside there are a line of 'rivets' that follow internal angled strapping. I'm off out now but will post a picture later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 ... but this kit has an end door too, the other end is fix and has wooden end posts... My memory isn't what it was, but I thought that the MR end door wagons were very much of the 19thC and didn't last long after the grouping. The impression I get is that the MR, like the GWR, relied on private traders to transport coal. Referring back to the OP, when I last visited Middleton Top there was an MR wagon of the type shown on the right on display. I believe that this diagram formed the basis of the LMS standard open wagon. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) Having now returned home - yes just before 5am, and looking at the parts I have... I have 2 sets of sides and ends, but each set is a different coloured plastic, but I could find no MR style underframes in the box. One floor in moulding also had bottom doors represented, though both sets had no internal detailing to the sides and ends. The detailed floor is marked 'Cambrian', the other is devoid of markings. There's nothing matching on the Cambrian Models web site. There's nothing to be found on Slaters either. BUT, looking through CooperCraft web site, I found the image matching the sides I have... It's a Gloucester 5 plank Side Door (though the illustration also shows an end door too) PO China Clay wagon (Kit Ref: S4055W). So my apologies for wasting everybody's time and to Spitfire2865 for ignoring his PO pointer. I don't recall ever seeing that China Clay wagon in the Gloucester wagons series, probably wasn't looking for it, and I've blindly associated those vertical bits of strapping with the Midland Rly. So, I can't see any requirements for China Clay wagons on the Central Wales line, so they will have to go. I wonder how I acquired them? At least I have some suitable 'Gloucester' underframes spare. Yes I know I live in west Cornwall, but..... Meanwhile, I await the reappearance of the MR D299's (in 4mm). Edited January 18, 2017 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) .... and just to clarify, further, the 14'5" (internal length) version is in the OPC, Keith Montague Gloucester Wagon Book, John Lovering & Co., plate 365, Page 113. The sides I have are for the same length wagon. However, as the body in the photo is black, it obscures the vertical strapping. I think you would have to know it's there, to look for it. Nothing to do with this topic now. Edited January 18, 2017 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 It may not all be for nothing. The Midland bought many expired PO wagons and rebuilt and painted them as owned stock. So you could argue that for MR livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 Hey guys, I need another Midland Railway Open diagram confirming. I recently found a Midland Railway Open in a photo from Great Western Horse Power. Since it is rare to see a MR Open in post-36 livery, I am aiming to have one of the several MR Opens I have done as the wagon in the photo below. Anyone able to confirm the diagram please? Also what is the tonnage of the wagon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Hey guys, I need another Midland Railway Open diagram confirming. I recently found a Midland Railway Open in a photo from Great Western Horse Power. Since it is rare to see a MR Open in post-36 livery, I am aiming to have one of the several MR Opens I have done as the wagon in the photo below. Anyone able to confirm the diagram please? Also what is the tonnage of the wagon?What you have there is one of the thousands of D299s in original condition. No added ironwork, no severe modifications. Though fitted with a longer brake lever. A note for internal ironwork, the corner plates are overly complex, being made up of 5 separate strips each corner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 22, 2018 Yes, D299 - note it's been given LMS oil axleboxes but still 8 Ton capacity as it says on the side. As well as the long brake handle, the spring door banger - with corresponding long bang plate on the door - are additions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 A note for internal ironwork, the corner plates are overly complex, being made up of 5 separate strips each corner.But a very common, not to mention practical, arrangement. Having the internal washer plates as separate items makes it easier to assemble the wagon body, as well as avoiding tolerancing problems in lining up the holes in the inner and outer plates. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Yes, D299 - note it's been given LMS oil axleboxes but still 8 Ton capacity as it says on the side. As well as the long brake handle, the spring door banger - with corresponding long bang plate on the door - are additions. The S&DJ version of the D.299 had long brake handles from new. -- Just saying Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 One D663A refurbished... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted May 24, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 24, 2018 Actually, looking at it again, for some reason there is a D shaped plate on the solebar. That was I believe LMS design. The D-shaped plates are late Midland, introduced 1913 according to Midland Style. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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