Brent GWR signal query

[checkrail]

Photographs of Brent station in south Devon show what seems to be the branch platform starter signal (in the down main line direction) positioned a couple of tracks away to the left, beyond the run-round loop.  A very low-res copy of the signal box diagram I have suggests by a faint line that this is in fact the case and that in spite of its position this signal does pertain to the branch platform.  My signalling knowledge is very rudimentary I’m afraid – am I reading the evidence rightly?  If so, my next question is: how did the driver of a loco in the branch platform road know that this signal applied to him (and indeed how did one in the run-round loop or goods yard know that it didn’t)?  Was it just a case of “knowing the road”?  It's not even as if the signal is cantilevered out on a bracket, which would be at least a nod towards the platform road.

 

I'm guessing that perhaps the signal’s siting was to aid visibility on the curved platform face.  A 1920s photo suggests something similar at Par, though I think a 1970s picture of this location shows a platform-mounted branch platform starter.  Maybe the earlier platform buildings which had obscured the view had by then been demolished?

 

My layout is based on Brent, and I’ve not really been looking forward to the tricky task of installing the branch signals into the fixed and completed platform.  Maybe this scenario will get me off the hook with one of them?

 

​John C.

 

[gwrrob]

Hi John, welcome to the joys of modelling Brent.I also need to model this signal eventually as will follow this thread with interest.I was hoping Dapol would bring one out rtr but it looks like a Ratio/MSE version might be the answer.Not easy though.

[The Stationmaster]

The signal was probably sited as it was because it was difficult to put it anywhere else - depends on how wide the platform was at the site where the signal would have gone.  Distant sighting was probably not needed although it might have been advantageous after the Down Lop was altered.

 

Certainly not unusual siting for the GWR and provided a Driver knew the road properly such siting would have presented no difficulties at all.

[TheSignalEngineer]

This picture from the disused Stations website shows the position of the signal. 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/brent/index2.shtml

 

Whilst it would have been possible to put it on the platform, looking at the buildings and footbridge it would have been difficult to see when appoarching. 

[The Fatadder]

Going to prove fun on my own Brent inspired project, given I think that clashes with where I had to move the goods shed to.

Will have to rebut a few bits to maintain the signalling I think.

 

What time period have you chosen John, (and how is the layout coming on)?

Brent is such a fascinating prototype!

[Stephen Freeman]

Hi,

 

Down end of Brent

Bit of confusion going on here, I think. The nearest signal you can see on the disused stations link is actually the down main starter. I was a bit confused about the other signal but, in fact the platform could also be used by the down main trains. What isn't so clear is that there is a small bracket arm attached to it. (arms 61 and 59). I think the small bracket arm is to allow access to the head shunt.

 

As so much is known about Brent, tit won't be long before we know.

 

Branch Starter at the other end of the platform.

 

The diagram in the OPC book by RH Clark (diagram is dated 1950) shows a bracket signal on the platform with the main signal I would think giving access to the up main via the slips, the bracket arm being for the Branch.

 

There is also in fact quite a good photo of the signal in question (date unknown but he says probably turn of the century) in the same book. I don't think the Branch driver would be in much doubt as to which route was being signalled.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Stephen Freeman

[RailWest]

Hi,

Bit of confusion going on here, I think. The signal you can see on the disused stations link is actually the down main starter.

The diagram in the OPC book (diagram is dated 1950) shows a bracket signal on the other platform with the main signal I would think giving access to the up main via the slips, the bracket arm being for the Branch.

Errr----more like double confusion, I'm afraid :-) Yes, the disused-stations link does show the Down Main Starting (63) in the foreground, but it also shows the Down Starting (61) for the Branch platform (complete with 'to goods' bracket (59)) over to the right in the yard.

 

There are many examples on the GWR of signals being well away from the line to which they apply, often in the middle of goods yards - Brixham had two examples IIRC. It all came down to the driver's line knowledge to ensure that he knew where to look and which signal to obey (or not).

[Stephen Freeman]

The original post threw me. The Branch trains would always have left for the Branch at the up end of the platform, which is where the Branch starter is. The fact is that the platform could also be used by down main trains as well, so a starter would be needed at the down end as well. This is the signal that we have been talking about, though to call it a Branch starter is perhaps a bit misleading. I've edited my previous post to reflect my understanding of the position.

[timbowilts]

Looking at that picture it would be more like the fireman and not the driver who had to look out for the aspect, given that GWR drivers stood on the right and were thus on the opposite side of the loco to the signal

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi,

 

Down end of Brent

Bit of confusion going on here, I think. The nearest signal you can see on the disused stations link is actually the down main starter. I was a bit confused about the other signal but, in fact the platform could also be used by the down main trains. What isn't so clear is that there is a small bracket arm attached to it. (arms 61 and 59). I think the small bracket arm is to allow access to the head shunt.

 

As so much is known about Brent, tit won't be long before we know.

 

Branch Starter at the other end of the platform.

 

The diagram in the OPC book by RH Clark (diagram is dated 1950) shows a bracket signal on the platform with the main signal I would think giving access to the up main via the slips, the bracket arm being for the Branch.

 

There is also in fact quite a good photo of the signal in question (date unknown but he says probably turn of the century) in the same book. I don't think the Branch driver would be in much doubt as to which route was being signalled.

 

Assuming that we are all using the same diagram (July 1950):

59 (a smaller pivoted arm) is the starter from sidings to down main.

61 is the starter from down branch to down main.

 

So really easy for driver and fireman to know which was theirs when departing.

 

Perhaps oddly, no ground signal from platform line into headshunt/dock.

 

But the positioning does seem strange. Plenty of room on the platform for a branch starter and the bracket is situated in a place where it must have been partially obstructed by the goods shed. But perhaps not an issue as speed through branch platform presumably low.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[The Stationmaster]

The original post threw me. The Branch trains would always have left for the Branch at the up end of the platform, which is where the Branch starter is. The fact is that the platform could also be used by down main trains as well, so a starter would be needed at the down end as well. This is the signal that we have been talking about, though to call it a Branch starter is perhaps a bit misleading. I've edited my previous post to reflect my understanding of the position.

 

Not really fair on the original poster I think.  He very specifically, and absolutely accurately, described the signal as follows -

 

'branch platform starter signal (in the down main line direction)'

 

Now in reality, while it was probably called 'starting' instead of 'starter' on the lever lead, the line to which it applied was accurately described by name as was the direction.   I would agree it is easy enough to jump to conclusions by incomplete reading and take it as either of the Branch Platform Starting Signals but, in his defence, the direction was clearly specified by the OP.

 

The use of a bracketed centre pivot arm (usually of the shorter variety) bracketed off the main post on a small metal bracket was the standard GWR method of signalling a facing route into a siding prior to c.1920 and was therefore correct for signalling a move into the short siding used for both trapping the running line and as a headshunt for the branch engine to run round.  At some time - possibly during the wartime alterations - it was replaced by the sudsequent normal method of signalling such moves (other than running moves) which was by means of a co-located shunting disc signal.

[Stephen Freeman]

Not really fair on the original poster I think.  He very specifically, and absolutely accurately, described the signal as follows -

 

'branch platform starter signal (in the down main line direction)'

 

Now in reality, while it was probably called 'starting' instead of 'starter' on the lever lead, the line to which it applied was accurately described by name as was the direction.   I would agree it is easy enough to jump to conclusions by incomplete reading and take it as either of the Branch Platform Starting Signals but, in his defence, the direction was clearly specified by the OP.

 

The use of a bracketed centre pivot arm (usually of the shorter variety) bracketed off the main post on a small metal bracket was the standard GWR method of signalling a facing route into a siding prior to c.1920 and was therefore correct for signalling a move into the short siding used for both trapping the running line and as a headshunt for the branch engine to run round.  At some time - possibly during the wartime alterations - it was replaced by the sudsequent normal method of signalling such moves (other than running moves) which was by means of a co-located shunting disc signal.

Hi,

Yes I know, I misunderstood. The diagram for July 1950 shows the small centre pivot bracketed signal and if you look very carefully at the photo on disused stations you can just about see it, if you enlarge the photo.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not really fair on the original poster I think.  He very specifically, and absolutely accurately, described the signal as follows -

 

'branch platform starter signal (in the down main line direction)'

 

Now in reality, while it was probably called 'starting' instead of 'starter' on the lever lead, the line to which it applied was accurately described by name as was the direction.   I would agree it is easy enough to jump to conclusions by incomplete reading and take it as either of the Branch Platform Starting Signals but, in his defence, the direction was clearly specified by the OP.

 

The use of a bracketed centre pivot arm (usually of the shorter variety) bracketed off the main post on a small metal bracket was the standard GWR method of signalling a facing route into a siding prior to c.1920 and was therefore correct for signalling a move into the short siding used for both trapping the running line and as a headshunt for the branch engine to run round.  At some time - possibly during the wartime alterations - it was replaced by the sudsequent normal method of signalling such moves (other than running moves) which was by means of a co-located shunting disc signal.

 

I have shunt signals on both the sidings but not on the platform line. Drawing is probably wrong because, as you say, access would be needed into that headshunt for the branch loco to run round.

[RailWest]

Assuming that we are all using the same diagram (July 1950):

59 (a smaller pivoted arm) is the starter from sidings to down main.

61 is the starter from down branch to down main.

........

Sorry, no. Both signals applied to the branch platform road (see Stationmaster's preceding post). Another of those cases where OPC got their signal descriptions wrong :-(

 

The exits from the sidings to the spur or down main were controlled by ground signals (marked but not numbered on the OPC diagram). See also http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwf/S934.htm

[gwrrob]

A superb photo by the great Peter Gray shewing the west end detail nicely.The telegraph pole is partially hiding a signal.I want to model the trees so is most helpful.

 

The locomotive is Evesham Abbey.

 

[RailWest]

I have shunt signals on both the sidings but not on the platform line. Drawing is probably wrong because, as you say, access would be needed into that headshunt for the branch loco to run round.

Which is precisely what 59 would have been used for!

[The Stationmaster]

Assuming that we are all using the same diagram (July 1950):

59 (a smaller pivoted arm) is the starter from sidings to down main.

61 is the starter from down branch to down main.

 

So really easy for driver and fireman to know which was theirs when departing.

 

Perhaps oddly, no ground signal from platform line into headshunt/dock.

 

But the positioning does seem strange. Plenty of room on the platform for a branch starter and the bracket is situated in a place where it must have been partially obstructed by the goods shed. But perhaps not an issue as speed through branch platform presumably low.

Several things -

 

1. Clark's diagram is either wrong or he knew more than he let on.  He shows the pre 1943 signal with the post 1943 lever numbers although it could of course equally be that the signal was not replaced in 1943 and survived until later renewal - a reliably dated photo will answer that one for us.

 

2. 61 was the Branch Platform to Down Main Starting Signal.

 

3. 59 was  Branch Platform to Down 'Spur' (or whatever name it had on the lead - I can't trace a copy of the Brent lever leads anywhere thus far to give it its correct name)

 

4. (Using 1943 numbering) 32 was the ground disc reading from the loop to the Down Main or Down spur.

 

5. 33 was the ground disc reading from the goods shed road to the Down Main or Down Spur

 

(32 & 33 are both shown on the diagram in the Clark book - albeit using an LMS/LMR drawing convention instead of a Western one.)

[TheSignalEngineer]

But the positioning does seem strange. Plenty of room on the platform for a branch starter and the bracket is situated in a place where it must have been partially obstructed by the goods shed. But perhaps not an issue as speed through branch platform presumably low.

A case of different requirements as to the sighting required. The signal in the Down direction had a running move up to it from the Branch, and later from the Down Loop, so more sighting was required. The signal to the Up main and Up Branch could only be approached by a shunt move, there was no running move from the Main line to the Branch in the Up direction, so it was effectively a turn-back signal.

[brianusa]

As a matter of interest, was the branch platform ever used by a main line train as implied?  If so, why, unless the Down Main was under repair or something like that.

 

Brian.

[Siberian Snooper]

For Brent signals, I think that the David Geen signals should do the job as he has researched Brent and the Kingsbridge branch, so that he can produce an accurate model and all of his kits are produced too that end. I have an extensive collection of his coach kits in the to do pile and talking to him at ExpoEM there are a couple more in the pipe line.

[Stephen Freeman]

Hi,

That's good to know but probably doesn't help John (checkrail) as he may be doing this in 7mm scale. Mind you it all depends on period, as wooden post signals were modernised to the new-fangled tubular ones. I'm sure I could find out (given time) which if any of the signals at Brent remained as wooden post, not many (if any) I would think and certainly not the Branch Bracket Starter or the down main starter, of which I've seen photos of the tubular replacements.

[checkrail]

Thanks Gentlemen.  You’ve confirmed my guess that the signal was what I’d thought it was, in spite of its positioning.  I must confess that in spite of viewing various photos of it I hadn’t until now noticed the earlier small bracket controlling access to the headshunt/spur.  Nor was this obvious on my very low-res signal box diag. printed out from the internet. (Even the signal numbers are indecipherable on that.)

 

So you’ve given me the confidence to install the signal to the left of the run-round loop rather than on the platform as I’d originally intended.  Squinting down my branch platform from the branch at driver’s eye level one can more than justify this positioning.  The curve on my branch platform is accentuated by a slight curve on the station as a whole, and the island platform building would completely obscure the signal until the last few seconds. (I would show you what I mean in pictures if only I could work out how to add photos to a post – after 2 hours trying I’ve given up for now!  But I guess there must be a section  somewhere on RMWeb that shows you how to use it.  RMWeb for dummies?))

 

The signal itself will be, like the others, a heavily butchered Dapol item.  I’m hoping to do some similar jiggery-pokery on a Dapol bracket signal (when they finally appear) for the other end of the platform (i.e. the branch end of the branch platform), attempting to bury it in the platform without wrecking the station.  Wish me luck!  In the meantime I might position a non-working Ratio item here as a temporary cosmetic measure. 

 

Rob, Rich - yes, Brent is a great prototype - all the operational fun of a BLT and a bit more, but with the option of just watching the trains go by - though my version (Stoke Courtenay, change for Earlsbridge Branch) is not intended as a replica.  I hope to start a layout thread in due course and post some pictures. When I discovered Rob’s ‘Nod to Brent’ thread last year I did no modelling for three or four days while I read avidly through it all.  Great stuff.  And I recently discovered Rich’s thread from February and will follow his layout’s development with interest.

 

 

John C.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2016 by checkrail

[Joseph_Pestell]

A superb photo by the great Peter Gray shewing the west end detail nicely.The telegraph pole is partially hiding a signal.I want to model the trees so is most helpful.

 

The locomotive is Evesham Abbey.

 

4574437.jpg

Do we have a date for that photo?

[gwrrob]

Do we have a date for that photo?

26th March 1960.

[Joseph_Pestell]

26th March 1960.

I ask as it clearly shows a replacement signal (Down Branch to Down Main) with no bracket.