Hatton's 4800/5800 No Good for the Pre-War Modeller

[Edwardian]

Once upon a time everyone modelled the Great Western, 'somewhere in the '20s and '30s, though not always with a great degree of accuracy!  People liked BLTs and Ashburton seemed to be modelled so many times that it has become one of the most enduring clichés of the hobby.

 

In those far off days, most of the layouts were Great Western, as opposed to Western Region, because the 1950s-1960s had yet to become so overwhelmingly dominant.

 

This gave Ashburtons a problem.  The classic Bulliver, of a hundred Albums published in the '70s, was a, by then, 14XX with a steel-bodied auto-coach.

 

Actually, pre-War the real Ashburton had converted railmotors, still featuring most of their original panelling, and, until 1936, the branch passenger engine was always a 517.  The 4800 class itself was not introduced until 1932 and the 517s took time to replace.  I may be wrong, but, aside from a brace sent to Cornwall early on, I think the Ashburton one was the first seen anywhere west of Exeter. So, if you have a fictional 'Ashburton' the 517 is much more representative of the pre-War scene.

 

But, even if you restricted yourself to a 4800, you were stuck with Airfix's 14XX.  Not a great model by today's standards, but good for its time.  Rather better than a contemporary Hornby 'Jinty'.  It's now hard to remember just how rubbish RTR was before Airfix and Mainline.  The problem was that the 14XX could never be accurate for all those 'sometime between the wars' GWR BLTs that seemed to grace the RM with quite an astounding frequency in those days. The model was used all the same, complete with its top-feed, with bunker steps, cut out cab steps and cab to roof handrail, all of which appear to modifications undertaken from the early '40s.

 

I accept that there is some debate as to whether any mid-to-late '30s 4800s were delivered with cut out cab steps and cab to roof handrail, but I am not convinced.  Any reliably dated example is likely to be very late in the '30s and unlikely to typify the class.  I model 1935, so that's useless to me.  Modelling 1935 and backwards is, BTW, is real historic railway modelling.  Apart from the top-link 4-6-0s, surprisingly little of reasonable quality has ever been available RTR.  This is why the Hornby Colletts are such a boon (all praise to them for those) and the humble branch auto-train has never been available in an accurate pre-war guise.

 

Having waited decades for a pre-war 4800 I am gutted to find that, despite the implication of the 'Great Western' and Roundel variants, they are unlikely to prove accurate for the inter-war Modeller, as they feature bunker steps, cut out cab steps and cab to roof handrail.  The fact that they are, nevertheless, depicted in pre-war liveries makes it worse, because, as a couple of people have already indicated, they'll buy the model anyway, despite such inaccuracies.  That's up to them, of course, but I'm inclined to vote with my wallet and decline to accept the compromises so often foisted on the pre-War Modeller; '40s, '50s, and '60s Modellers insist upon a high degree of accuracy.  I really don't see why '30s Modellers should not insist upon the same standards.

 

Hattons Dave has said that "Class did appear with 'Great Western' lettering and with cab steps".  I remain sceptical that such examples would represent the pre-War condition, let alone the mid-'30s.  Certainly such a beast would be untypical of the class at that time to say the least.

 

The fact that the decision not to offer the class 'as built' was for economic reasons is not any consolation, and does not make me any the less ticked off, not least because the model will kill-off the possibility of anyone making a pre-War variant for at least a generation.  So, thanks for nothing, Hattons.  But there we are.

 

Future Pre-war 'Ashburtons' will be as inaccurate as ever.  

[Moxy]

I'm not sure what your point is here?

 

Firstly I will say I know nothing about the Great Western, so I will accept what you are saying about there being detail differences between pre & post war examples of this class, but let's look at this from the manufacturer's point of view.  Every different body detail, top feed, steps, handrails etc is going to add both to the complexity and cost of the finished model, to such a degree that catering for every single different variant of 75 locos rapidly makes any new loco project uneconomic, therefore the project won't happen.  If it is to succeed the manufacturer is going to choose the variant that represents most of the class in order to maximise sales, although I will agree with you that if this a post war version, painting it in prewar livery is stretching the point a bit too far.

 

Again given that I know nothing about these locos, can the Hattons/DJM model not be used as the basis for a prewar version by modifying it?  I accept that you may not want to do that, but to have a go at Hattons just because they are not doing the particular version that you want is a bit harsh.

 

Railway modelling is a compromise, there are sound economic reasons why manufacturers make the compromises they do in order to make their products affordable, criticising them for not making a specific version of it is not helpful in my opinion.

[chrisf]

Has it never occurred to you to modify models to suit your requirements?

 

Chris

[Dunsignalling]

The choices made by Hatton's for the versions of 14xx/48xx/58xx being produced presumably reflect the commercial reality that more people now purchase Western Region models than Great Western ones.

 

I deliberately refrained from using the phrase "now model Western Region than Great Western" in this context because you have stated an unwillingness to do the modelling required to backdate the model to suit your own interests. As someone who commenced modelling BR steam when it was distinctly unfashionable to do so, I find it interesting to see the boot now on the other foot, though I can already feel the Banger Blue diesel boys starting to breathe down my own neck!

 

A decision has evidently been made that the additional tooling cost required for your favoured options didn't offer a certain increase in return. Given the popularity of the prototype, I find that rather surprising but, at least for now, your choices comprise [a] modifying the loco to your required specification, tolerating the anachronisms or [c] doing without.

 

Most kits produced in the days when whitemetal was the dominant medium represented locos in "as built" condition, and alternative parts had to be sourced if we wanted to shift them into a later era. Many didn't bother, resulting in frequent mismatches between liveries and fittings far worse than those being perpetrated here.

 

The bodyline ones were often distorted to make them fit over r-t-r chassis (like my Bec 700 of fond memory) - I much prefer things the way they are now.

 

John

[Edwardian]

Has it never occurred to you to modify models to suit your requirements?

 

Chris

 

More often than it occurs to manufacturers to cater for them.

 

Of course, most people model the '50s and '60s, so will not need to make so many modifications, though many may choose to, causing the 'accept what you're given or learn to be a proper modeller' line to wear a little thin.

 

If I wanted a 4800 that badly, I'd not be afraid to take a scalpel to £125 worth of model, but I'd rather devote my finite time and resources to achieving a decent 517. The 4800 was going to be a 'nice to have', not a 'need to have'.  It's now become a 'not going to bother with', laced, I freely confess, with a certain amount of stubborn ire along the lines of 'I'm damned if I'm going to reward another manufacturer for stiffing the pre-War Modeller'.   

 

 

I'm not sure what your point is here?

 

Firstly I will say I know nothing about the Great Western, so I will accept what you are saying about there being detail differences between pre & post war examples of this class, but let's look at this from the manufacturer's point of view.  Every different body detail, top feed, steps, handrails etc is going to add both to the complexity and cost of the finished model, to such a degree that catering for every single different variant of 75 locos rapidly makes any new loco project uneconomic, therefore the project won't happen.  If it is to succeed the manufacturer is going to choose the variant that represents most of the class in order to maximise sales, although I will agree with you that if this a post war version, painting it in prewar livery is stretching the point a bit too far.

 

Again given that I know nothing about these locos, can the Hattons/DJM model not be used as the basis for a prewar version by modifying it?  I accept that you may not want to do that, but to have a go at Hattons just because they are not doing the particular version that you want is a bit harsh.

 

Railway modelling is a compromise, there are sound economic reasons why manufacturers make the compromises they do in order to make their products affordable, criticising them for not making a specific version of it is not helpful in my opinion.

 

I imagine the point of the post was to flag up the fact that, despite being issued in the livery applied 1932 to 1934 and that applied 1935 to 1940 something, neither of these models represent the pre-War condition of the Class.  I also wanted to make the point that I felt this a shame and a wasted opportunity.  

 

You see, I understand the manufacturer's view, but if it doesn't produce what I want, I won't buy it, so my understanding of the position doesn't affect the outcome.

 

Lots of models are made in such a way as to exclude earlier periods.  You can argue economies and what the customer wants but, when I see this happening for the umpteenth time, naturally, I'm a bit jaundiced.

 

It's lazy to produce a single variant that may, or may not, just have come into existence before Hitler invaded Poland that could represent a handful of class members not repainted at the time of modification, but still expect to encompass the smaller pre-War market.   

 

How many variants of the LMS garret did Hattons do, with every possible tender variation, some probably only lasting a few months including the pre-War period?  Yet now I am asked to accept that the Bean Counters can't permit an 'as built' version of the 4800, knocking out all, or virtually all, the class's 8-year pre-War career.

[Horsetan]

Malcolm Mitchell kit for the 517?

[Edwardian]

The choices made by Hatton's for the versions of 14xx/48xx/58xx being produced presumably reflect the commercial reality that more people now purchase Western Region models than Great Western ones.

 

I deliberately refrained from using the phrase "now model Western Region than Great Western" in this context because you have stated an unwillingness to do the modelling required to backdate the model to suit your own interests. As someone who commenced modelling BR steam when it was distinctly unfashionable to do so, I find it interesting to see the boot now on the other foot, though I can already feel the Banger Blue diesel boys starting to breathe down my own neck!

 

A decision has evidently been made that the additional tooling cost required for your favoured options didn't offer a certain increase in return. Given the popularity of the prototype, I find that rather surprising but, at least for now, your choices comprise [a] modifying the loco to your required specification, tolerating the anachronisms or [c] doing without.

 

Most kits produced in the days when whitemetal was the dominant medium represented locos in "as built" condition, and alternative parts had to be sourced if we wanted to shift them into a later era. Many didn't bother, resulting in frequent mismatches between liveries and fittings far worse than those being perpetrated here.

 

The bodyline ones were often distorted to make them fit over r-t-r chassis (like my Bec 700 of fond memory) - I much prefer things the way they are now.

 

John

 

See answer above.   I'm more exercised about the neglect of any period other than the terminal decade or so of steam than my own modelling need, as I can live without a 4800.  If I couldn't, I'd get the Hattons as it would be a better basis for a modification than anything that went before. 

 

Why a chap can't express a preference for a particular variant without being castigated for not wanting to modify.  I have plenty of RTR modification projects on the go, and one or two may even end up a success!

 

Anyway, this isn't some minor variant that is being neglected, it's the whole class for the whole pre-War period and for the majority of their GW careers.  Sorry if that seems picky!

Malcolm Mitchell kit for the 517?

 

Have heard good things.  When I'm all grown up I'd like to give it a go.

[Horsetan]

...Have heard good things.  When I'm all grown up I'd like to give it a go.

Failing that, there's always the old McGowan whitemetal kit...if you dare!

[Edwardian]

Failing that, there's always the old McGowan whitemetal kit...if you dare!

 

I might just find my Brave Pants have shrunk in the wash

[Marshall5]

Failing that, there's always the old McGowan whitemetal kit...if you dare!

Could be worse - a K's !  Seriously though, does anyone do an etched brass one in 4mm? 

Ray.

[Darwinian]

Failing that, there's always the old McGowan whitemetal kit...if you dare!

 

Or when they next produce a batch the Alan Gibson one (Unless it is the same model I'm not familiar with McGowan's output?).

 

I suspect that financially one of the big hurdles is the top feed, because the pipes wrap around the boilers / along tank tops and so forth. Unless they were a separately fitted item (which might be rather fragile and would increase production costs) they would need a very different body shell. As discussed a bit on the Bachmann 64xx thread.

 

I suspect that at the end of the day there are not enough of us who want pre-WW2 (or pre-1930 in my case) variants to make it worth going the extra mile. At least they use a reasonably workable plastic for the body shells.

 

Grinding them off and making good without damaging anything else is not for the faint hearted however.

[wagonman]

Failing that, there's always the old McGowan whitemetal kit...if you dare!

 

 

There's also the Mallard etched brass model that turns up on eBay occasionally, or the Alan Gibson (exM&L) mostly white metal job. Quite decent I've heard.

 

 

Richard

[wagonman]

Could be worse - a K's !  Seriously though, does anyone do an etched brass one in 4mm? 

Ray.

 

I think we're talking about the 517 at the mo... As for the 48/58xx there was an etched kit produced by Westward/Perseverance or whatever they called themselves. The business inhabits a sort of limbo at the moment with no sign of kits being rerun. In 7mm scale of course there's MOK... Ah, dream on!

 

 

Richard

[Talltim]

It is possibly to design a model to allow for different details, it just costs. I was reminded of the Spring Mills PD3000 hopper model which has been designed to allow for all differences between versions of the prototype, including differing weld patterns! Surely if they can do that then steps/no steps is easy.

If there's a will...

http://www.springmillsdepot.com/pd3000main.htm

[Dunsignalling]

Once upon a time everyone modelled the Great Western, 'somewhere in the '20s and '30s, though not always with a great degree of accuracy!  People liked BLTs and Ashburton seemed to be modelled so many times that it has become one of the most enduring clichés of the hobby.

 

In those far off days, most of the layouts were Great Western, as opposed to Western Region, because the 1950s-1960s had yet to become so overwhelmingly dominant.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, that's a function of time and mortality.

 

It seems that a high proportion of people, then and now, prefer to model the era they grew up in. Those who were in that age group in the early 1930s had to have been born before the grouping (a few years older than my late father's generation) so those with personal memories of the era you model will be at least in their nineties now.

 

The 1950s/1960s have become the dominant era because many of us are recreating our younger days in miniature. The period is (currently) "overwhelmingly dominant" in r-t-r for a couple of reasons, primarily the sheer numbers of "baby-boomers" who took up spotting then; far more than was the case in earlier generations. It is also the case that the final decade of steam with the transition into a stupidly diverse range of (mostly) not-very-good diesels is intrinsically attractive to model even if you weren't there. Any period in which great change takes place tends to be "interesting". On the Western Region of the middle-to-late fifties, the 'Kings', given high superheat and double chimneys by BR, were at the height of their powers but rapidly nearing their swansong - dramatic times.

 

This numerically dominant generation within the hobby also happen to be the recently retired, on better occupational pensions than are likely to be commonplace in future and the manufacturers will, as ever, follow the money.

 

Those of younger generations with an interest in periods before they were born will, of necessity, need to do more "real modelling" than those of us who, by accident or design, fall into the contemporary mainstream, but I suspect that may always have been so. Moreover, such choices are often made consciously to lock the individual into kit and scratch building rather than just amassing the same r-t-r models everyone else has. To paraphrase JFK, choosing to do it because it is hard.

 

John

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I don't see carving some steps and one small handrail is a major problem. I did it to my old Airfix model many years back as well as removing the top feed.

[Clive Mortimore]

I don't see carving some steps and one small handrail is a major problem. I did it to my old Airfix model many years back as well as removing the top feed.

Ah! The old Airfix model, Mr Edwardian why not buy one of these, they can be purchased at a reasonable price second hand and practice backdating on it.

[JohnR]

The thing is the old Airfix model wasnt particularly good or accurate. Sure, it was better than almost everything that had come before, but it still wasnt perfect. Not for the pre-WW2 modeller, nor those who modelled the 50s or 60s.

 

What did we do? We either put up with the compromises (after all, the track is too narrow!), or we modified it. And that was less work that building a kit.

 

Hattons are bringing out a model that is light years in front of the Airfix model. If its still not perfect, then either put up with it, or change it.

[Edwardian]

Ah! The old Airfix model, Mr Edwardian why not buy one of these, they can be purchased at a reasonable price second hand and practice backdating on it.

 

I do other, more exotic, things with them, but drilling through the engine block to create daylight under the boiler is a bit of a bore (see what I did there?)

[Edwardian]

The thing is the old Airfix model wasnt particularly good or accurate. Sure, it was better than almost everything that had come before, but it still wasnt perfect. Not for the pre-WW2 modeller, nor those who modelled the 50s or 60s.

 

What did we do? We either put up with the compromises (after all, the track is too narrow!), or we modified it. And that was less work that building a kit.

 

Hattons are bringing out a model that is light years in front of the Airfix model. If its still not perfect, then either put up with it, or change it.

 

Fair point, but if Hattons had only tooled for the 'as built' version there would doubtless be howls of 'I don't expect to pay £125 for a state of the art RTR model only to have to glue my own steps onto the bunker!"

 

Just to clarify:

 

(a) My point of view is not that I expect a manufacturer to produce just the variant that suits me or I'll sulk; we are talking about excluding tooling that represents the whole of the class for pretty much its entire pre-War career/first 8 years in service/half of their GW careers.  I think that's a shame.  We are told that the Man From Accounting said "no", which is odd, as well as disappointing, because the Hatton Garrett came out with every conceivable variation in tenders, including, if I recall, short-lived 'as built' and modified pre-War conditions.  So no, I am not particularly impressed with Hattons' decision here.

 

(b) My complaint is not that I am too much of a wuss to take a scalpel to it.  Annoying to have to, of course, but if I wanted a 4800 that much, I would.  There are other RTR locomotives that I will have to modify.  My disappointment does not really hinge on my modelling needs, which would be far better satisfied by a 517 or two in this instance, but by the quite deliberate decision, in principle, to disregard the early variants. 

 

All things being equal, I'd probably have found an excuse to have a pre-War version if Hattons produced one, as it was only 1 year out for my chosen location/period.  But clearly, I have asked too much of the Gods and must depart duly chastened, but with my wallet firmly shut.

 

In short, I am lamenting the decision not to support a wider and early period, not complaining that my personal modelling needs are not to be satisfied.    

[johnarcher]

Could be worse - a K's !  Seriously though, does anyone do an etched brass one in 4mm? 

Ray.

Re 48XX -  the Perseverance etched kit is still (from time to time) available. I've just bought one - and, yes it's going to be pre-war (58XX though).

[Quarryscapes]

We're not talking small amounts of money though are we to incorporate these changes, it's at a minimum going to be a few £1000, upwards of several 100s of £1000s depending what tooling is needed in addition for the variations.

 

I also note this on ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Railway-Photo-GWR-48xx-Class-4802-Great-Western-0-4-2T-Loco/141874490846?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37125%26meid%3D62b8f5ab3c0d4d04a6f4b6bebc8e7ae5%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D141688076773

 

This on Warwickshire Railways:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwr-mra468.htm

[Dunsignalling]

We're not talking small amounts of money though are we to incorporate these changes, it's at a minimum going to be a few £1000, upwards of several 100s of £1000s depending what tooling is needed in addition for the variations.

 

I also note this on ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Railway-Photo-GWR-48xx-Class-4802-Great-Western-0-4-2T-Loco/141874490846?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37125%26meid%3D62b8f5ab3c0d4d04a6f4b6bebc8e7ae5%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D141688076773

 

This on Warwickshire Railways:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwr-mra468.htm

A great pity the first print is undated. The second one is especially interesting for a number of reasons.

 

4814 only dated from the second year of construction, and the photo was taken just six years later. It seems unlikely that a 48xx would have covered enough miles in six years to require a General repair, implying that the bunker steps and handrail would have been added at a casual, light or intermediate works visit. Once the decision had been taken to add them, implementation would have, therefore, been much more rapid than if the task had been scheduled into the General repair cycle.

 

I note that the cab steps don't appear to have the cut-outs (though those in the photo of 4802 might) so the two things were not necessarily done concurrently - adding even more fun and games for the loco pickers.........

 

The unanswered question is, of course, just how long before the photo was taken, was the work done?

 

John

[coachmann]

In days of yore before the dawn of time and RMweb, the 'Edwardians' of the modelling world could write a letter to a magazine editor and be politely reminded of the realities of mass-production. Those years are still fresh in my mind, dinosaur that I probably am, and we (modellers) used to look at RTR items as well as whitemetal and brass kits to see if they were suitable for modifying into 'scale models' or detailing to make a different variant.

 

Knowing what has been available RTR in the past, I personally am well pleased that Hattons is commissioning a GWR Collett 0-4-2T. Assuming it runs like a dream and can be fitted with DCC sound, that splendid basis of a model will be carefully lifted from its cradle and modified to look like something that ran out of Oswestry. No individual can expect or has a right to expect mass-producers to produce every variant, and while I do understand that an early GWR version is desirable to people who model that era, Hattons have explained why they cannot within the existing retail price. 

 

Of course it is easy for me to talk as painting & lining is my job and I can understand Edwardians reluctance to take a knife to a model knowing he cannot 'repair' the paint finish to a standard that is acceptable to him. But life's a sh*t at times innit....

[Quarryscapes]

In days of yore before the dawn of time and RMweb, the 'Edwardians' of the modelling world could write a letter to a magazine editor and be politely reminded of the realities of mass-production. Those years are still fresh in my mind, dinosaur that I probably am, and we (modellers) used to look at RTR items as well as whitemetal and brass kits to see if they were suitable for modifying into 'scale models' or detailing to make a different variant.

 

Knowing what has been available RTR in the past, I personally am well pleased that Hattons is commissioning a GWR Collett 0-4-2T. Assuming it runs like a dream and can be fitted with DCC sound, that splendid basis of a model will be carefully lifted from its cradle and modified to look like something that ran out of Oswestry. No individual can expect or has a right to expect mass-producers to produce every variant, and while I do understand that an early GWR version is desirable to people who model that era, Hattons have explained why they cannot within the existing retail price. 

 

Of course it is easy for me to talk as painting & lining is my job and I can understand Edwardians reluctance to take a knife to a model knowing he cannot 'repair' the paint finish to a standard that is acceptable to him. But life's a sh*t at times innit....

 

 

Look no further...

 

http://www.ehattons.com/94517/DJ_Models_Dave_Jones_H1415_Class_14xx_0_4_2_1432_in_BR_Lined_green_with_late_crest_Heavily_weathered/StockDetail.aspx

 

I might add one to my pre ordered 5801 eventually too, joining my heavily modified Airfix 1459 of Oswestry.