Impact on the Railways of Leaving the EU

[Bulwell Hall]

Oh, do you not think the Treasury will rush to spend some of the £350 million pounds Boris told us was being sent to Brussels each week on social projects in N. Devon?  After all it's only about 1/1000 of the losses Britain made in the first eight hours of the result being announced  so even when most some a bit of it has been spent on the NHS there should be something left over. 

 

Though it'll be given very little coverage in the mass media I'm far more worried about the effect on science and research, including railway research . About 80% of British scientists were opposed to Brexit but when our Nobel laureates signed a letter to that effect the BBC gave equal coverage to a statement in favour of leaving from "Science for Britain". giving the impression that scientists were as equally split on the issue as the general population. 

 

I also wonder if Tim Peake will now be the last British astronaut ; though the ESA is not an EU body it is part of the general cooperation across Europe.

 

I only mentioned the L & B in response to an earlier post which stated that the Severn Valley Railway will be £1.5milliion worse off when EU funding stops.  Both these minor railways are of course of little consequense in the greater scheme of things but we will all be the poorer if they fail and are not there.  Like you I have the gravest concerns about funding of research for science and engineering which underpins so much of our wealth.  I don't see a Tory government matching the funding in spite of what Cameron says - and Boris and Co don't seem to have a plan or thought about anything.  Problems are pilling up if we go through with this madness which will only become really apparent in years or decades to come - which our children and grandchildren will inherit and feel the effects of.  I am old enough to remember something in the 1960s called the 'brain drain' - in the 'good old days' before the EU - when young, educated, profesionals were leaving the country in droves - well 'the good old days' are coming back for Little England.

['CHARD]

1. I only mentioned the L & B in response to an earlier post which stated that the Severn Valley Railway will be £1.5milliion worse off when EU funding stops.  Both these minor railways are of course of little consequense in the greater scheme of things but we will all be the poorer if they fail and are not there. 

 

2. Like you I have the gravest concerns about funding of research for science and engineering which underpins so much of our wealth.  I don't see a Tory government matching the funding in spite of what Cameron says - and Boris and Co don't seem to have a plan or thought about anything.  

 

3. Problems are pilling up if we go through with this madness which will only become really apparent in years or decades to come - which our children and grandchildren will inherit and feel the effects of. 

 

4. I am old enough to remember something in the 1960s called the 'brain drain' - in the 'good old days' before the EU - when young, educated, profesionals were leaving the country in droves - well 'the good old days' are coming back for Little England.

 

My numbering of your points.

 

I'm famously bi-polar but today is an upbeat and positive day, and I would suggest some alternative viewing aspects on the above, so bear with me please...

 

1. I'm not familiar with EU funding of preserved railways, nor - despite being on this forum for some time - do I frequent them with any regularity.  However, of course I want them to be there on demand when the mood takes me.  Not all of them, but certainly my favourites.  Fact, not being wishy-washy or selfish, just candid.  The same that I want several bands that stand as heroes of my formative years, and now my lifetime, to carry on making albums.  To that end I support their new product campaigns not just by paying to see them play new material live, but by joining crowd-funded pledge campaigns and putting my discretionary outlay where it makes a difference.  Some would bemoan EU support to one preserved line above another that, to them, is a worthier cause.  Maybe I will in future pledge my support to the West Somerset or Severn Valley by taking out annual family membership and providing them some more guaranteed income to their coffers.
2. Science and research are key - these could take the place of the spurious 'good causes' supported by the presently non-hypothecated revenue raised by the National Lottery.  At the same time the total National Lottery income could be grown by making the odds more attractive to a greater number of gamblers.  The present regime, defended by its grandees who know best, should be torn up and replaced by a more balanced lottery with jackpots that don't kill their winners with over-excess and hedonism.
3. The present generation of 41-54 year olds lived through the after effects of Thatcherism as being 'just too young to vote Labour.'  Choices of the electorate made during any one epoch will affect a subsequent generation, it's true of every difficult era.  That doesn't make it better, but being reminded of the Thatcher scars every day I see urban wasteland where manufacturing industry used to stand, also reminds me of the generation of young people denied the fulfilment of physical labour as a career choice.  That's without discussing the unwaged for whom benefits are also in part the legacy of previous generations of voter.
4. Use of the perjorative term 'Little England' helps no-one.  Is it a crime to take pride in the country of one's birth, irrespective of its less savoury hangers-on.  How can I fight bigotry, racism, injustice and persecution in the country I love if I can't believe in the values that made the country great: reason, tolerance, liberty, acceptance, equality, inventiveness, courage, fairness and sharing. 

[Bulwell Hall]

 

My numbering of your points.

 

I'm famously bi-polar but today is an upbeat and positive day, and I would suggest some alternative viewing aspects on the above, so bear with me please...

 

1. I'm not familiar with EU funding of preserved railways, nor - despite being on this forum for some time - do I frequent them with any regularity.  However, of course I want them to be there on demand when the mood takes me.  Not all of them, but certainly my favourites.  Fact, not being wishy-washy or selfish, just candid.  The same that I want several bands that stand as heroes of my formative years, and now my lifetime, to carry on making albums.  To that end I support their new product campaigns not just by paying to see them play new material live, but by joining crowd-funded pledge campaigns and putting my discretionary outlay where it makes a difference.  Some would bemoan EU support to one preserved line above another that, to them, is a worthier cause.  Maybe I will in future pledge my support to the West Somerset or Severn Valley by taking out annual family membership and providing them some more guaranteed income to their coffers.
2. Science and research are key - these could take the place of the spurious 'good causes' supported by the presently non-hypothecated revenue raised by the National Lottery.  At the same time the total National Lottery income could be grown by making the odds more attractive to a greater number of gamblers.  The present regime, defended by its grandees who know best, should be torn up and replaced by a more balanced lottery with jackpots that don't kill their winners with over-excess and hedonism.
3. The present generation of 41-54 year olds lived through the after effects of Thatcherism as being 'just too young to vote Labour.'  Choices of the electorate made during any one epoch will affect a subsequent generation, it's true of every difficult era.  That doesn't make it better, but being reminded of the Thatcher scars every day I see urban wasteland where manufacturing industry used to stand, also reminds me of the generation of young people denied the fulfilment of physical labour as a career choice.  That's without discussing the unwaged for whom benefits are also in part the legacy of previous generations of voter.
4. Use of the perjorative term 'Little England' helps no-one.  Is it a crime to take pride in the country of one's birth, irrespective of its less savoury hangers-on.  How can I fight bigotry, racism, injustice and persecution in the country I love if I can't believe in the values that made the country great: reason, tolerance, liberty, acceptance, equality, inventiveness, courage, fairness and sharing. 

 

I have believed for all my adult life in the values of reason, tolerence, liberty, acceptence, equality, inventiveness, courage, fairness and sharing - values which I believed that this country had and were enhanced by also being a European citizen.  Those values which I have valued and believed in have been revealed to be in very short supply in this country and I resent having my European citizenship taken from me by a party for whom I do not support and who have brought us to the point where the country I love is on the point of disintegration -- all because of two mens personal ambition.  They should do the honourable thing - although they have revealed that they have little honour - and admit that they have misled the country in persuit of their own ambitions and accept the consequences - because they will be nothing compared to the consequences that they will recieve if they continue with this insanity.

[wagonman]

 

My numbering of your points.

 

I'm famously bi-polar but today is an upbeat and positive day, and I would suggest some alternative viewing aspects on the above, so bear with me please...

 

1. Use of the perjorative term 'Little England' helps no-one.  Is it a crime to take pride in the country of one's birth, irrespective of its less savoury hangers-on.  How can I fight bigotry, racism, injustice and persecution in the country I love if I can't believe in the values that made the country great: reason, tolerance, liberty, acceptance, equality, inventiveness, courage, fairness and sharing. 

 

 

 

The expression Little Englander specifically relates to the sub-set of introspective, mean-minded types who happily embrace bigotry and injustice. That is not to say one can't have pride in one's country and its traditions of toleration and equality etc. Perhaps that could be referred to as Big Englander?

 

 

Richard

['CHARD]

 

The term "Little England" doesn't relate to one's pride in their country of birth, but the attitude and aptitude of some 52% of voters about their personal situation and them not being able to see the bigger picture, nor actually trying or wanting to do so. They're simply not interested in anything or anyone else but themselves.

 

 

 

Which 52% would that be?   Presumably a cross section of all voters.

[jjb1970]

I can only speak personally but I've experienced a significant increase in unpleasant xenophobic comments and behaviour in recent weeks and especially over the last weekend. I'm emphatically not saying that all Brexit voters are bigoted or that the remain camp are all paragons of virtue but what I do think is that a certain segment of society does feel emboldened to be more open/overt with their unpleasant views by the referendum result.

[Talltim]

This is a little England

['CHARD]

I can only speak personally but I've experienced a significant increase in unpleasant xenophobic comments and behaviour in recent weeks and especially over the last weekend. I'm emphatically not saying that all Brexit voters are bigoted or that the remain camp are all paragons of virtue but what I do think is that a certain segment of society does feel emboldened to be more open/overt with their unpleasant views by the referendum result.

 

I think that's a sad fact, and a reflection of misguided hi-jacking of a populist cause, desperately besieging whatever Pied Piper they can seize upon.  

 

I clearly remember the era when Sham 69's Jimmy Pursey was in despair as the class of 1979 bootboys mistook his band's populist/ male working class/ street message as some arbitrary meeting place for a right wing skinhead movement.

 

Very soon it will be abundantly clear that leaving the EU is not the cause celebre these thugs might imagine and seek, and they'll crawl back under their respective stones.

[Pacific231G]

 

Use of the perjorative term 'Little England' helps no-one.  Is it a crime to take pride in the country of one's birth, irrespective of its less savoury hangers-on.  How can I fight bigotry, racism, injustice and persecution in the country I love if I can't believe in the values that made the country great: reason, tolerance, liberty, acceptance, equality, inventiveness, courage, fairness and sharing. 

 

I too am very proud of my country Great Britain and the values that it often exemplifies. Little England wasn't my description of what it is but my very considerable fear of what it may soon be reduced to.

I don't think for a moment that all the 52% (who include some of my closest friends) were bigotted or ill-informed nor that all the 48 % were wise and well informed but reducing the entire future of the country for generations to come to a simple yes no choice when the issues are, as muist be obvious now to most people, so complex and entangled seems unbelievable. The way the campaign was then conducted by both sides (but especially by the leave side) apalled me. It also seems to have apalled most of the world.

 

There has been a problem when free movement of labour to and fro around the EU has become an unbalanced mass migration but we should be able to  find ways to avoid that without abandoning the basic principle.

 

What we in this country are generally very good at is coming up with is workable compromises and that's what we really need now if half the population (either way) isn't to feel completely disenfranchised.  

[Rods_of_Revolution]

The main issue with the campaigns was that neither they, nor a third party produced TV programs, posters/leaflets etc that actually explain how the EU works. Almost nobody I speak to knows that the legislative branch, the EU commission, has meetings in secrete with no minutes publicly available, undertaken by 28 Commissioners who swear an oath to represent the interests of the EU over the interests of their home states. Thus they don't even claim to represent our best interests and we can't hold any of them to account because their dealings are conducted behind closed doors. Perhaps some people think that surrendering a significant portion of our democracy is a sacrifice worth paying for whatever benefits they believe it offers and that the EU parliament offers sufficient protection from abuse by the EC, but they should at least be aware they are making a significant compromise on their democracy by voting Remain. Instead voters have been spoon fed tit for tat arguments that are little more than meaningless distractions from the core issues with the EU.

 

Who are the people that make up the EU commission? Have you ever seen them giving interviews and holding Q/A sessions like your MP would? The current British Commissioner was nominated by David Cameron, so if you didn't vote Conservative at the last General Election, you have had zero input into the current European Commission, the people who draft the laws that you may well have to abide by as an EU citizen.

 

Watching the TV, you'd think it was all about the price of strawberries, farmers subsidies or how many migrants are here, when actually all those issues boil down to how the EU functions and how much control the legislative branch of it has. Yet no one explained it. I honestly don't understand why, but it surely must be deliberately, because explaining what it actually is that you're voting to remain or leave would seem to be the most basic thing to inform people about.

 

This is only my opinion and it may be regarded as correct /incorrect and is subject to change, especially at the point of a hat experiencing acceleration due to gravity.

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[ForestPines]

I only mentioned the L & B in response to an earlier post which stated that the Severn Valley Railway will be £1.5milliion worse off when EU funding stops. Both these minor railways are of course of little consequense in the greater scheme of things but we will all be the poorer if they fail and are not there.

A small clarification: from reading earlier posts my understanding is that the £1.5M refers to grants the SVR has received in the past, and not to future funding it may no longer receive.

 

Particularly, the SVR received a large EU grant towards its 2007 flood repairs. Just over half of the flood repair bill was covered by grants, and a substantial chunk of that was EU funding; the rest of the grant aid came from the HLF and a local development fund.

 

If the EU money had not been available, it does not automatically follow that it would have been the end of the SVR in 2007, but repairing the line would have been substantially harder. I don't have the exact figures, but I understand the EU grant was considerably more than the amount received in donations from the public and other railways.

[Edwin_m]

The main issue with the campaigns was that neither they, nor a third party produced TV programs, posters/leaflets etc that actually explain how the EU works. Almost nobody I speak to knows that the legislative branch, the EU commission, has meetings in secrete with no minutes publicly available, undertaken by 28 Commissioners who swear an oath to represent the interests of the EU over the interests of their home states. Thus they don't even claim to represent our best interests and we can't hold any of them to account because their dealings are conducted behind closed doors. Perhaps some people think that surrendering a significant portion of our democracy is a sacrifice worth paying for whatever benefits they believe it offers and that the EU parliament offers sufficient protection from abuse by the EC, but they should at least be aware they are making a significant compromise on their democracy by voting Remain. Instead voters have been spoon fed tit for tat arguments that are little more than meaningless distractions from the core issues with the EU.

 

Who are the people that make up the EU commission? Have you ever seen them giving interviews and holding Q/A sessions like your MP would? The current British Commissioner was nominated by David Cameron, so if you didn't vote Conservative at the last General Election, you have had zero input into the current European Commission, the people who draft the laws that you may well have to abide by as an EU citizen.

 

Watching the TV, you'd think it was all about the price of strawberries, farmers subsidies or how many migrants are here, when actually all those issues boil down to how the EU functions and how much control the legislative branch of it has. Yet no one explained it. I honestly don't understand why, but it surely must be deliberately, because explaining what it actually is that you're voting to remain or leave would seem to be the most basic thing to inform people about.

 

This is only my opinion and it may be regarded as correct /incorrect and is subject to change, especially at the point of a hat experiencing acceleration due to gravity.

 

All the best,

 

Jack

But does the British cabinet not also hold its meetings in secret, and a principle of "collective responsibility" (suspended for the referendum campaign) where they don't publically disagree with the party line? 

 

As a non-supporter of the Conservative party living in a safe Tory seat*, my personal vote counts for nothing.  Our system of government gives almost untrammelled power to any party commanding a majority in the Commons, currently one that about 75% of the people did not vote for.  So in fact I've had zero input to anything the British government has done for several years.  At least the voting system in the EU parliament meant I had some chance of being represented by someone with a common set of principles. 

 

*Though ironically my MP, Kenneth Clarke, is one of the few from any party who has spoken up to say Parliament should set the referendum result aside.

[PhilJ W]

Its just been announced that HS2 is likely to be delayed, the Audit Office are now saying that the figures don't add up.

[Fenman]

... Almost nobody I speak to knows that the legislative branch, the EU commission, has meetings in secrete with no minutes publicly available, undertaken by 28 Commissioners who swear an oath to represent the interests of the EU over the interests of their home states. ... [emphasis added]

 

They might not know that because the Commission is in fact the executive branch - it is the EU Parliament that is the legislative branch.

 

I'm not aware of many executive branches that hold their meetings in public and make the minutes available (though, like the EU, many of them are subject to freedom of information laws).

 

Paul

[roythebus]

Odd, I don't recall any of us voters having any input as to the selection or election of the members of our upper House, nor to the appointment of any ciil servants, those who actually write the laws and dictate policy. I've heard arguments about the size of the EU civil servants, some 55,000 reportedly, about a tenth of the size of our civil servants.

 

There was also a very noticeable silence in the pre-referendum run-up from MEPs of ANY party except the despicable lying bar steward Nigel Farage. surely the other should have been out there extolling the virtues or otherwise of the working and benefits/disbenefits of belonging to the EU? The advertising standards authority have been quiet as well about the false and misleading claims made by the exit campaign. 

 

As to how the railways will be affected, drivers on another forum are already asking how their EU train driving licences will be affected, but I seem to remember someone on here (maybe the Stationmaster) saying that is down to the UIC not the EU, and on BBC Radio Kent this morning news that Eurotunnel will be employing remote control drones to help protect "our" border in Calais.

 

Will the likes of DB and NS still be interested in providing high speed services through the tunnel to London? If Leave actually does happen, there will be an awful loss of trade to Brussels from London as I understand Eurostar is the preferred method for those employed in Brussels and living here. Maybe that's why the government sold their share in E*? 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

They might not know that because the Commission is in fact the executive branch - it is the EU Parliament that is the legislative branch.

 

I'm not aware of many executive branches that hold their meetings in public and make the minutes available (though, like the EU, many of them are subject to freedom of information laws).

 

Paul

I wonder how many of the electorate understand that, if they did UKIP and similar party's from other EU members would not get elected. In my region we have one Labour and one Conservative MEP and the rest are UKIP. Both those MEP's despite their differences have worked tirelessly for their constituents. The UKIP members on the other hand have on several occasions have either voted against or abstained on items that would have benefitted the UK and are intent on political points. One thing they did vote against however was making MEP's publish their expenses claims, despite some of their members being found guilty of fiddling them in the past.

[roythebus]

Oh surely not, I'm shocked, UKIP MEPs fiddling expenses?? Like Mr Forage, being  member of the Fisheries Commission and only attending one meeting out of 42.

[Bulwell Hall]

I wonder how many of the electorate understand that, if they did UKIP and similar party's from other EU members would not get elected. In my region we have one Labour and one Conservative MEP and the rest are UKIP. Both those MEP's despite their differences have worked tirelessly for their constituents. The UKIP members on the other hand have on several occasions have either voted against or abstained on items that would have benefitted the UK and are intent on political points. One thing they did vote against however was making MEP's publish their expenses claims, despite some of their members being found guilty of fiddling them in the past.

 

Of course they don't understand that because nobody has ever explained it but the information is there for those who go and seek it out and you would hope that people voting on such a fundamentaly important matter would at the very least inform themselves.  The majority of those who voted to leave did so without any consideration of the facts and were influenced by an apallingly flawed and distorted campaign led by two men for their own political ambitions and an applingly biased gutter press that also have their own agenda.  As an example and this is not anecdotal and I actually had the conversation - a near neighbour voted leave - when asked why he said " I don't really know but it seemed the right thing to do but it should be OK"!  When I mentioned Jo Cox he said "whos he?" and then went on to say "well if the Scots don't like it do we really need them"!!  I am incredulous!!  He then went on to admit that "he doesn't do politics and never watches the news"!!

[Coryton]

There was also a very noticeable silence in the pre-referendum run-up from MEPs of ANY party except the despicable lying bar steward Nigel Farage. surely the other should have been out there extolling the virtues or otherwise of the working and benefits/disbenefits of belonging to the EU? The advertising standards authority have been quiet as well about the false and misleading claims made by the exit campaign. 

 

I think political "advertising" is outside the remit of the ASA. Understandable, but somewhat frustrating when - for example - you get a leaflet headed something like "Official referendum communication", which then contains a list of "facts" you might like to consider when voting. All slanted in one direction of course, and right at the bottom of the last page is the (obligatory?) notice saying which group had funded it.

 

Now, as it was one of the official campaigning groups, presumably in a sense it was an official communication. But it was clearly constructed to make it look as if it was impartial advice and it would be nice if there was somewhere that one could usefully complain to.

[Talltim]

While I understand that politics is intrinsic to this thread, it seems to have wandered from the politics of the railway situation.

[david.hill64]

Odd, I don't recall any of us voters having any input as to the selection or election of the members of our upper House, nor to the appointment of any ciil servants, those who actually write the laws and dictate policy. 

But neither the upper house nor the civil service in UK dictate policy. Both can advise and the civil servants do the drafting, but laws are proposed by the government on the basis of a manifesto pledge, except of course for those that are mandated by the EU. EU policy is proposed by the Commission and to a degree moderated by the Council. It might be argued that MEPs also have a role but their function is more like that of the house of Lords in the UK: they don't have the power to propose legislation. Moreover the turnout for the last euro election was less than 43% which may well be an indication that voters across Europe know that the EU parliament is little more than a rubber stamp for the Commission's edicts. We agreed that EU law takes precedence over UK law and that might be hunky dory if there were sufficient checks and balances in the system to prevent abuse, but it is arguable that this is the case. Even Manual Barroso used to warn of 'the democratic deficit' in the system.

[Edwin_m]

Can we put the general stuff in the "other" topic and keep this one for the effect on the railways please? 

[Fenman]

But neither the upper house nor the civil service in UK dictate policy. Both can advise and the civil servants do the drafting ...

 

I think the word "dictate" might be betraying your prejudices!

 

The commission proposes; Parliament disposes. It is not an exact parallel with the UK system (thank good ness - who outside Iran would invent a system where a couple of dozen unelected bishops have the right to sit in a legislature?), but the commission is an executive while the parliament is clearly a legislature.

 

Apologies for replying to an off topic post and, in turn, prolonging the off topicness. I promise I'll desist.

 

Paul

[david.hill64]

I think the word "dictate" might be betraying your prejudices!

 

No: I was merely quoting Roythebus!

Bombardier has made an announcement that it is 'Business as usual' for Derby.

[Kenton]

 

Money can't buy you love.....

 

Oh I don't know about that. But it does help make choices and alternatives possible.

 

One thing I am pretty certain about the railways will be pretty non-existent in any forthcoming negotiation with the exception perhaps of the tunnel, and even that only in relation to borders and immigration. Some things are just not considered important enough and will be left to commerce to resolve based on broader treaty principles (if they are ever resolved).