C&L Finescale

[hayfield]

IIRC, the OO items from the Exactoscale range may not resurface other than to clear out stock as I'm not sure the gauge societys of Andrew have any real interest beyond EM/P4 for the range.

 

 

Andrews letters stated if I have understood them as no further developments with oo gauge, however he also states that sales are to recoup costs and make modest profits, live in hope that means existing 00 gauge products will continue. 

[Stephen Freeman]

Andrews letters stated if I have understood them as no further developments with oo gauge, however he also states that sales are to recoup costs and make modest profits, live in hope that means existing 00 gauge products will continue. 

Fortunately most of the 4mm scale parts can be used for 00 as well as P4/EM with some exceptions of course. What is more worrying for some is the fate of the 7mm scale parts. No mention has been made of these, I cannot see either the EMGS or Scalefour stocking these, so presume that if they are to re-surface at all, then they will be by Exactoscale. Perhaps I shouldn't be holding my breathe too long?

[hayfield]

Stephen

 

I think we must give the Exactoscale cooperative a bit of slack and encouragement, In one way I can understand Mr Jukes seeing both the P4 and EM gauge societies his main allies at this transition and his plans not to invest in developing the 00 gauge items, but as you say most parts are universal

 

I take my optimism in that the stated aim of the cooperative in recouping the development costs and hopefully making a modest profit, to that end if tools are usable and items still selling the aims are likely to be achieved. To this end I am assuming both 00 gauge and 7 mm products will still be available whilst the tools work and the items are being bought.

 

There was a suggestion more details will be available in the near future

[Torper]

I may well need to build some more track in the near future, but am extremely reluctant to use chairs with an in-built 20 degree inward cant (once bitten....)  Both Excatoscale and C&L incorporate such a cant.  Unfortunately there does not appear to be any alternative - or is there?

 

DT

[Lecorbusier]

I may well need to build some more track in the near future, but am extremely reluctant to use chairs with an in-built 20 degree inward cant (once bitten....)  Both Excatoscale and C&L incorporate such a cant.  Unfortunately there does not appear to be any alternative - or is there?

 

DT

perhaps I am teaching my grandmother and all that but ......

 

There is always Ply & rivet (with cosmetic chairs), or copperclad.

 

I found that by using the exacto scale roller gauges the functional chairs have worked fine ... just don't use gauges which clamp the track vertical.

[Torper]

There is always Ply & rivet (with cosmetic chairs), or copperclad.

 

I found that by using the exacto scale roller gauges the functional chairs have worked fine ... just don't use gauges which clamp the track vertical.

 

Both Exactoscale and C&L should have included some instruction to that effect with their chairs in case someone like me who didn't know about it came along.  They didn't.  I hope they do in future. (You can tell I'm bitter).

 

It's basically pointwork I'm most concerned with and certainly the best results I have ever achieved were with ply and rivet with a small and very neat blob of solder standing in for the chair (not too noticeable once painted but probably unacceptable by today's standards).  Cosmetic chairs (Exactoscale or C&L cut in half) are a complete pain to fit as the head of the rivet (2mm)  is bigger than the hole in the base of the chair.

 

DT

[hayfield]

I may well need to build some more track in the near future, but am extremely reluctant to use chairs with an in-built 20 degree inward cant (once bitten....)  Both Excatoscale and C&L incorporate such a cant.  Unfortunately there does not appear to be any alternative - or is there?

 

DT

 

Torper

 

These chairs have been available for the past 40 odd years, in 00 gauge there is no issue with gauge narrowing as its only a few thou. Hundreds of modellers have used the system over the years without any issues, its only now with both electronic measuring instruments being available cheaply, and roller gauges perhaps being machined a bit tight side potential issues MAY have emerged

 

There is nothing wrong with the products, just the way some use them. Just check the gauges you have are compatible with the product, just as you would with any other gauge in any other situation  The solution (if there is a problem) has a very easy fix. Its always worth firstly either buying a kit with instructions or obtain a set of instructions.

 

Many years I followed the instructions in a SMP turnout kit, sadly the kit failed to say buy a roller gauge and I used the ali bar in the kit. The result was not as good as anticipated, so for the next one I bought a gauge. OK the instructions let the kit down, but that did not mean all the parts were wrong or badly designed

[hayfield]

Both Exactoscale and C&L should have included some instruction to that effect with their chairs in case someone like me who didn't know about it came along.  They didn't.  I hope they do in future. (You can tell I'm bitter).

 

It's basically pointwork I'm most concerned with and certainly the best results I have ever achieved were with ply and rivet with a small and very neat blob of solder standing in for the chair (not too noticeable once painted but probably unacceptable by today's standards).  Cosmetic chairs (Exactoscale or C&L cut in half) are a complete pain to fit as the head of the rivet (2mm)  is bigger than the hole in the base of the chair.

 

DT

 

 

Torper

 

In one way a fair point and in its inception C&L used to do this in its chair packs,

 

Both C&L and Exactoscale supply instructions with their kits, but not in the parts packs. I for one feel its a waste of time,money and resources enclosing instructions in these parts packages as they are designed for the follow on use of those familiar with the system

[Lecorbusier]

These chairs have been available for the past 40 odd years, in 00 gauge there is no issue with gauge narrowing as its only a few thou. Hundreds of modellers have used the system over the years without any issues, its only now with both electronic measuring instruments being available cheaply, and roller gauges perhaps being machined a bit tight side potential issues MAY have emerged

 

My own experience ... and I caveat this with the fact that I model in P4 ..... is that there is a problem with gauge narrowing if gauges which hold the track vertical are used. My scalefour society gauges for ply and rivet caused definite issues. Over a couple of days the incline of the rail reasserted itself and de-railments were the result. The roller gauges which simply space the track rather than holding it worked fine. The wider tolerances within 00 may well mean this is not an issue, but I have never built 00 gauge track and so couldn't comment.

[martin_wynne]

I may well need to build some more track in the near future, but am extremely reluctant to use chairs with an in-built 20 degree 1:20 (3 degrees) inward cant (once bitten....)  Both Excatoscale and C&L incorporate such a cant.  Unfortunately there does not appear to be any alternative - or is there?

 

There are alternatives via 3D printing. I'm currently developing Templot to export files suitable for 3D printing of chaired track bases, and there is no reason in principle not to print simply a fret of chairs without the timbers. Which could have 2mm dia holes in the base.

 

They will all be for vertical rail, not inclined. The reason is nothing to do with gauging difficulties, but the practical difficulty of creating the required conical bends and twists in inclined rail for pointwork, for knuckle bends, set bends, vee rails, etc. I don't believe using inclined rail is practicable for pointwork in small scale models, without some sophisticated press tools.

 

Some details of progress at:  http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2734&forum_id=6&jump_to=25327#p25361

 

 

Notice the random key positions and screw heads. There should be a corner radius around the top of the jaw, but I think I'm going to draw a line at this. I've used as much of the REA drawing as seems reasonable. I'm hoping that the 3D printer will smooth out some of the sharp angles. In 4mm scale a lot of the detail will be lost, but hopefully it should be visible in the larger scales.

 

 

Still a long way to go, so don't hold your breath.

 

See also the 3D chairs from Andy in the same Templot topic (he has some experimental versions available now).

 

edit: p.s. Torper -- inclined rail is 1:20 angle (3 degrees), not 20 degrees.

 

Martin.

Edited August 23, 2018 by martin_wynne

[hayfield]

My own experience ... and I caveat this with the fact that I model in P4 ..... is that there is a problem with gauge narrowing if gauges which hold the track vertical are used. My scalefour society gauges for ply and rivet caused definite issues. Over a couple of days the incline of the rail reasserted itself and de-railments were the result. The roller gauges which simply space the track rather than holding it worked fine. The wider tolerances within 00 may well mean this is not an issue, but I have never built 00 gauge track and so couldn't comment.

 

 

Tim

 

You are correct here, the main issue in my opinion is that when ownership changed from the designer to others, there was no appreciation of the issue,

 

This was not just with the chairs. Pre built common crossings were made available in both P4 and EM gauges, leaving out 00 gauge (universal). One owner had some roller gauges made for DOGA fine standard which uses the same wing rail gap (1mm) as EM gauge, mistakenly for years described and sold as (standard) 00 roller gauges. Fine for the stock rails but wrong for check and wing rails

[Torper]

Both C&L and Exactoscale supply instructions with their kits, but not in the parts packs. I for one feel its a waste of time,money and resources enclosing instructions in these parts packages as they are designed for the follow on use of those familiar with the system

 

I don't really know what you mean by "they are designed for the follow on use of those familiar with the system".  Like Tim I model in P4 and the track on my previous layout had been ply and rivet (and worked well).  For my current layout I decided to go with Exactoscale chairs on ply sleepers and had no reason to think that the gauges I'd used with ply and rivet would not also work with the chairs.  There was no question of any "follow on use" - one has to start using them at some point.  As for instructions, all that's needed is a slip of paper, or something printed on the packing, pointing out that these chairs are angled and that they need a gauge specifically designed to take that into account.  Something like that would have saved me (and others) a lot of trial and tribulation.

 

Martin, that 3d development you're working on looks very interesting.

 

DT

Edited August 22, 2018 by Torper

[purplepiepete]

On the subject of chairs has anyone any experience of the Shapeways 'Off the Rails' products ? The range and images look good on the website but it's hard to judge the quality and fit without some photos or users with some experience.

 

Main issue is that the cost seems excessive - even for 7mm scale !

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/JUV5AMVW3/chairs-for-one-60ft-track-panel

[Paul Cram]

I don't really know what you mean by "they are designed for the follow on use of those familiar with the system".  Like Tim I model in P4 and the track on my previous layout had been ply and rivet (and worked well).  For my current layout I decided to go with Exactoscale chairs on ply sleepers and had no reason to think that the gauges I'd used with ply and rivet would not also work with the chairs.  There was no question of any "follow on use" - one has to start using them at some point.  As for instructions, all that's needed is a slip of paper, or something printed on the packing, pointing out that these chairs are angled and that they need a gauge specifically designed to take that into account.  Something like that would have saved me (and others) a lot of trial and tribulation.

 

Martin, that 3d development you're working on looks very interesting.

 

DT

I don't know whether you are or ever have been a member of the Scalefour society but digest 23.6.4 publlished March 1992 clearly states the sort of gauges needed and the reasons why.

[hayfield]

Torper

 

Both C&L and Exactoscale (and SMP) sell turnout and crossing kits, with these kits come a set of instructions. The advice I have heard from both those who sell these items and many of those who I have watched do track building demos, is to buy a kit first and familiarise yourself with the products and the instructions on use. The same goes for many parts within our hobby, etched chassis kits come to mind. A kit comes with instructions, buy a set of hornblock guides sold without instructions. As for smp if I buy copperclad strip and rail there are no instructions

 

Quite simply instructions come with kits, those wishing to buy bulk packs of chairs (follow on sales) can if required download instructions, its a waste of time, effort, money and resources in supplying instructions to repeat users. I have bought rail, and ply sleepers(with rivet holes) and ply timbers from the EMGS, never had a single instruction sheet with any purchase 

 

The exactoscale special chairs were designed for use with the turnout and crossing kits and their make up is for kit use, but are available individually for non kit use but must be adapted where necessary.

 

Different skills/processes are required for each of the 3 main differing track building methods, some of the methods are transferable between methods others are specific for the chosen method

 

As to whether the chairs should have a cant, that is up to the person who developed the system. I would have thought being a P4 modeller you would be more inclined to follow prototypical practice, rather than use a modelling compromise 

[Torper]

I don't know whether you are or ever have been a member of the Scalefour society but digest 23.6.4 publlished March 1992 clearly states the sort of gauges needed and the reasons why.

 

I am a member of the Scalefour Society.  I do not read every digest, many of which are now outdated, any more than I read every thread in RMWeb or the Scalefour Society Forum. I do not expect to have to trawl back through 25 years worth of digests every time I buy a new product to make sure I'm using it properly, particularly if it appears to be a simple product and there is no apparent complication to suggest that I'm not.  As I see it both the Exactoscale and C&L chairs contain a hidden trap for people who like me had previously built ply and rivet trackwork using the normal gauges, and a very short note on the product packaging advising the correct type of gauge to use would have avoided that.  It's quite clear from forum postings that I'm not the only person to have fallen into the trap.

 

I'm not quite sure why, in the world of model railways, people seem to find it acceptable that manufacturers, particularly perhaps niche ones, need provide minimal or no instructions at all for their products.

 

DT

[hayfield]

On the subject of chairs has anyone any experience of the Shapeways 'Off the Rails' products ? The range and images look good on the website but it's hard to judge the quality and fit without some photos or users with some experience.

 

Main issue is that the cost seems excessive - even for 7mm scale !

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/JUV5AMVW3/chairs-for-one-60ft-track-panel

 

 

I have some but not used them yet, they do look very good with the detail far more visible in 7mm scale than 4 mm scale, and if they work as well as they look I will have no complaints

 

A word of warning (no instructions supplied), do get some instructions, Some chairs do come with keys cast to the chairs, others have separate keys requiring a slightly different build process than the plastic type sold by C&L and Exactoscale. Expensive but you get what you pay for, the packs they are sold in have altered. bulk packs are good value but only available in check rail chairs.

 

The owner is very helpful and have given me good instructions

[hayfield]

I am a member of the Scalefour Society.  I do not read every digest, many of which are now outdated, any more than I read every thread in RMWeb or the Scalefour Society Forum. I do not expect to have to trawl back through 25 years worth of digests every time I buy a new product to make sure I'm using it properly, particularly if it appears to be a simple product and there is no apparent complication to suggest that I'm not.  As I see it both the Exactoscale and C&L chairs contain a hidden trap for people who like me had previously built ply and rivet trackwork using the normal gauges, and a very short note on the product packaging advising the correct type of gauge to use would have avoided that.  It's quite clear from forum postings that I'm not the only person to have fallen into the trap.

 

I'm not quite sure why, in the world of model railways, people seem to find it acceptable that manufacturers, particularly perhaps niche ones, need provide minimal or no instructions at all for their products.

 

DT

 

 

Torper

 

I to fell foul of the gauge narrowing when I bought a new set of Alan Gibson 3 point gauges (my older gauges worked fine). The issue became quickly apparent, after a quick thread on hear the problem was identified and solution found. Using ply timbers the fix was extremely easy to rectify. What ever track building method used, gauging should always be checked as you go

 

When either assisting Phil or demonstrating I always explain this issue, which seems to be understood by most and not an issue

 

As for reams of nonessential paper, I get far too much already and I would guess most of us would not read it anyway. Sorry cannot see the issue exactly the same as if I bought  lengths of copperclad sleeper strip I dont get instructions with them

 

As for other commodities, my last 2 Tv's came without instructions. They were available via a download !!. Iphone much the same with a full instructions

[Pannier Tank]

I'm not quite sure why, in the world of model railways, people seem to find it acceptable that manufacturers, particularly perhaps niche ones, need provide minimal or no instructions at all for their products.

 

 

"For" or "with", there is  big difference.

[Torper]

As for reams of nonessential paper, I get far too much already and I would guess most of us would not read it anyway. Sorry cannot see the issue exactly the same as if I bought  lengths of copperclad sleeper strip I dont get instructions with them

 

As for other commodities, my last 2 Tv's came without instructions. They were available via a download !!. Iphone much the same with a full instructions

 

I'm not asking for reams of paper - perhaps something printed on the back of the packing saying something like: "These chairs hold the rail at a prototypical angle and when laying track you should ensure that you are using a track gauge specifically suitable for that".  I really don't see how anyone could have any objection to that, even if it only helps those of us who haven't read the Scalefour Digest or the relevant thread on here.   And yes, gauging should always be checked as you go but the plastic chairs slowly relax after laying and the problems do not become apparent until some time has passed.

 

Other commodities?  Fine - I think we're all used to instructions that have to be downloaded, a cunning ruse that means that we have to do the printing rather than the manufacturer, but as far as I'm aware neither Exactoscale nor C&L go in for that and I wouldn't expect them to.

 

DT

[martin_wynne]

Other commodities?  Fine - I think we're all used to instructions that have to be downloaded, a cunning ruse that means that we have to do the printing rather than the manufacturer, but as far as I'm aware neither Exactoscale nor C&L go in for that and I wouldn't expect them to.

 

Hi Torper,

 

The full set of Exactoscale instructions are available as PDF downloads on the C&L web site: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=18

 

But I can't actually find any reference to inclined rail and gauging - it's probably in there somewhere. The difficulty is that niche manufacturers tend to be modellers who assume their users will have the same basic prototype and modelling knowledge as themselves. It is extremely difficult and time consuming to write a full set of instructions starting from the assumption that the reader knows nothing about the subject. Apart from the practicalities and economics of including them with every pack of components, where do you stop? If you put a note about gauges on the back of a pack of chairs, what about adhesives? What about which chair goes where? What about prototype differences? What about the direction of keying?

 

Martin.

[Paul Cram]

The original chairs were intended for plain track asw an alternative to the cast chairs then available. Slide chairs were produced to enable pointwork to be built but there were no point jkits. They were marketed by the Scalefor and EMGS stores and a digest sheet produced to support making pointwork . The original sleeper design had holes to accept pips on the chair negating the need fo gauges and also allowing for gauge widening. It was only when Alan Gibson got involved that the pips were removed and plain sleepers produced to allow then to be used for other gauges. Instructions weren't needed as the digest sheets covered this along with others covering the production of Vs and switches. Bearing in mind ths was all 30+ years ago it would appear that most people have managed ithout having instrucrions in the packs since.

[hayfield]

Paul & Martin

 

Thanks for the input but from memory the original system was designed & marketed by K&L and thin plastic timbers were available and I was introduced to the system as free standing, not as something designed solely for ply and rivet construction

 

Exactoscale turnout and crossing kits come with extensive instructions

 

The original K&L chair packs came with instructions, at some point the instructions were only packed with the turnout and crossing kits

 

Peter Llewellyn rewrote these instructions soon after taking over C&L from Brian Lewis, but before adding Exactoscale into the fold.

 

At one time the Original Exactoscale website had the turnout instructions and plans available as downloads

 

Several C&L and Exactoscale downloads are available on the currant C&L site, with the exception of the kit instructions

 

The fact that the chairs have a cant built in is a total red herring and long been common knowlage

 

Track gauges has always been an achilles heal with C&L and other companies for that matter. For long periods C&L sold roller gauges with check rails set for GOGA fine standards, early)2nd generation) versions had quite thin groves, newer steel versions have deeper groves which providing meet the standards set by Mr Newman allowing the rail head to rotate are fine. Exactoscale P4 track gauge sets designed for head rotation and also have a gauge widened set ( sadly without instructions of how much to widen and when)

 

At the end of the day irrespective of both scale gauge or method used should check that what has been built has remained in gauge. I would also check that gauges are to the required standard, as most of my gauges differ slightly from each other despite being within the specified tolerance range

[Vistisen]

Hi Torper,

 

The full set of Exactoscale instructions are available as PDF downloads on the C&L web site: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=18

 

But I can't actually find any reference to inclined rail and gauging - it's probably in there somewhere. The difficulty is that niche manufacturers tend to be modellers who assume their users will have the same basic prototype and modelling knowledge as themselves. It is extremely difficult and time consuming to write a full set of instructions starting from the assumption that the reader knows nothing about the subject. Apart from the practicalities and economics of including them with every pack of components, where do you stop? If you put a note about gauges on the back of a pack of chairs, what about adhesives? What about which chair goes where? What about prototype differences? What about the direction of keying?

 

Martin.

 

The only thing you need to put in the pack is a link to a website with all the information, Or even better a link to a page with links to a range of sites covering various levels knowledge,

[Torper]

The fact that the chairs have a cant built in is a total red herring and long been common knowlage

 

Why is it a total red herring?  A red herring is something that is irrelevant to the discussion.  As the current discussion is about C&L products and cant in chairs, it seems entirely relevant.  It's also much too easy, and dare I say a little arrogant, to brush something off as "common knowledge"; it clearly isn't because I didn't know it and nor did quite a few other people who have also had this problem.  I produce a range of quite advanced kits (nothing to do with modelling), and I include with each kit a comprehensive set of instructions;  while I know that most people who buy the kits won't need them, I am aware that some will - they've paid good money for the kit and it seems only right to cater for them so they don't make of mess of it.

 

DT