C&L Finescale

[gismorail]

This whole thread saddens me.  E-commerce revolutionaised our hobby in the 2000's . . . . it allowed niche products to be made available to a wide customer base quickly, efficiently and when needed within individual modelling projects and time-lines.  Focussing on shows (seasonal and limited to weekends (I shift work with one weekend off every 7 weeks as will many others)) is a "nice to do" but shouldn't be the primary point of sale.  Reading this thread I get the feeling that it's been a massive step back in meeting customer demand (and customer confidence) at C&L and if that demand (and confidence) cannot be met (as it was before) the customer will seek alternate products.  The Exactoscale 'fast-track' bases will be a sad loss to the Hobby if they do not endure and I genuinely fear for the long term profitability and viability of C&L.

 

Best wishes to Phil with the challenges ahead and credit to Hayfield for mounting, at times, an un-defendable defence !! 

 

Regards to all

 

M

I think you have put the whole C&L situation in a 'nutshell'  with this post . It's all well and good collecting track parts from Phil at a show but we all know that at some stage there are going to be bits that will have to be purchased via mail order and if that causes delay's in construction I for one would get very frustrated. I will be leaving my final choice till after the 0 gauge show at Telford but in the long term I'm afraid that the real winners will be Peco and Marcway 

[hayfield]

This whole thread saddens me.  E-commerce revolutionaised our hobby in the 2000's . . . . it allowed niche products to be made available to a wide customer base quickly, efficiently and when needed within individual modelling projects and time-lines.  Focussing on shows (seasonal and limited to weekends (I shift work with one weekend off every 7 weeks as will many others)) is a "nice to do" but shouldn't be the primary point of sale.  Reading this thread I get the feeling that it's been a massive step back in meeting customer demand (and customer confidence) at C&L and if that demand (and confidence) cannot be met (as it was before) the customer will seek alternate products.  The Exactoscale 'fast-track' bases will be a sad loss to the Hobby if they do not endure and I genuinely fear for the long term profitability and viability of C&L.

 

Best wishes to Phil with the challenges ahead and credit to Hayfield for mounting, at times, an un-defendable defence !! 

 

Regards to all

 

M

 

 

Melly

 

I totally agree with you about personal service and you are correct something which have been undefendable, I have not defended. There is however no set standard for E commerce. Yes the large companies have an extensive system which allows then to send items out within 24 hours, but smaller companies do nor have either the funds for these systems or the staff to carry it out. I have just contacted a small supplier who I don't think does shows, he is on holiday. Is this a problem of course not, I can wait

 

Track building parts is not a large profitable business, as proved by the previous owners/suppliers of both C&L and Exactoscale.

 

Fact one.    The business can only survive as a cottage industry on a limited budget 

Fact two.    THe business needs the income generated by both the mail order side and the show attendances

 

You are quite right questioning whether it is wise to attend a show so far away from the businesses base, especially as the week before he was at a 3 day show. You need to ask Phil about this

 

If you ask his customers at at Loughborough and Perth you will get one answer, same question to his mail order customers you will get a different answer.

 

Like it or not Phil has a lot of customers who do not use the internet and like to buy in person, these customers have every right to expect the business to to continue to offer this service. And our friends north of the border do complain lack of some trade support

 

The impossible job is to get the correct balance between the two.

[hayfield]

Did anyone a have a chat with Phil at the GCR event and what sort of stock levels were present ...I ask this as I will have to make a choice soon as what type of track work will be purchased for my proposed 0 gauge layout. I too have tried phoning over several weeks but without success which does not fill me with a great deal of confidence . 

 

 

To the best of my knowledge there are no issues with C&L 7 mm track and parts

[hayfield]

I think you have put the whole C&L situation in a 'nutshell'  with this post . It's all well and good collecting track parts from Phil at a show but we all know that at some stage there are going to be bits that will have to be purchased via mail order and if that causes delay's in construction I for one would get very frustrated. I will be leaving my final choice till after the 0 gauge show at Telford but in the long term I'm afraid that the real winners will be Peco and Marcway 

 

 

Marcway are into to copperclad construction, Peco is fine with its 0 gauge parts, but a restricted range, also Exactoscale.  And finally Off the Rails which whilst at a cost the components for turnouts are superb. Choice has never been better

Edited June 20, 2018 by hayfield

[Melly]

 

Like it or not Phil has a lot of customers who do not use the internet and like to buy in person, these customers have every right to expect the business to to continue to offer this service. And our friends north of the border do complain lack of some trade support

 

The impossible job is to get the correct balance between the two.

 

That's an interesting view; I could / would counter argue on 2 threads.

 

1 If the E-commerce reputation is poor than it's logical that that side of the business will contract.

2  Demographics.  As we move into a world dominated by connectivity and 'mail-order pan-globe" your business will not compete unless you compete on a level playing field.  In addition, I would happily argue that many of those who "do not use the internet and like to buy in person" will reduce as time progresses; and they pass on. A business that does not look for the next customer bases but gets complacent on the current customer base will not remain a business for very long.

 

Business have to be agile and adapt to the market and 30 odd pages on here would indicate that C&L have not done that.

 

But as you say; it's hard to serve 2 masters and get the balance right; one has to serve the most profitable master and clearly that's going to be the one that allows sales to the widest / largest audience possible.  The furthest North on the Exhibition Diary is York!

 

I really hope the product range endures . . . We have finer detail models, wagons, DCC . . . . the next step is track.  Got to be in it to win it.

 

Regards Hayfield, and keep up the good fight :-)

Edited June 20, 2018 by Melly

[PenrithBeacon]

Under the previous owner there was a support staff at Bristol who could look after the mail order side while others went out on the road. Now C&L is a one man band and it's clear that the business is struggling. I think the current owner has some thinking to do, he has a very popular product and he is clearly not meeting the demand, not because he doesn't have enough stock, but because he doesn't have enough time.

Although shows may be profitable, there is travelling time which isn't productive and there is also the issue of keeping track of stock sold in order to restock those items. Most traders find that this keeps them busy for two to three days after a show. If you are attending as many shows as C&L do this is an issue too for restocking time is time not spent looking after the mail order side.

[gismorail]

To the best of my knowledge there are no issues with C&L 7 mm track and parts

I hope that is the case regarding the 7mm stock I would gather that a lot of the debate has been more to do with 4mm 

[sharris]

Off the Rails 

 

Who are they - I've never heard of that one before? - a google search brought up a dance studio rather than anything railway related! 

[martin_wynne]

Who are they - I've never heard of that one before? - a google search brought up a dance studio rather than anything railway related! 

 

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/otr

[hayfield]

That's an interesting view; I could / would counter argue on 2 threads.

 

1 If the E-commerce reputation is poor than it's logical that that side of the business will contract.

2  Demographics.  As we move into a world dominated by connectivity and 'mail-order pan-globe" your business will not compete unless you compete on a level playing field.  In addition, I would happily argue that many of those who "do not use the internet and like to buy in person" will reduce as time progresses; and they pass on. A business that does not look for the next customer bases but gets complacent on the current customer base will not remain a business for very long.

 

Business have to be agile and adapt to the market and 30 odd pages on here would indicate that C&L have not done that.

 

But as you say; it's hard to serve 2 masters and get the balance right; one has to serve the most profitable master and clearly that's going to be the one that allows sales to the widest / largest audience possible.  The furthest North on the Exhibition Diary is York!

 

I really hope the product range endures . . . We have finer detail models, wagons, DCC . . . . the next step is track.  Got to be in it to win it.

 

Regards Hayfield, and keep up the good fight :-)

 

 

Melly

 

In some ways you are correct as many of the high street retailers have found to their cost, Phil is looking to upgrade his internet package, hopefully once he has found someone capable of producing what he requires at a price he can afford a more modern up to date website will follow

 

The main issue is catching up on back orders, Phil has put things into place to allow him to do so and apparently the backlog is reducing. Hopefully over the summer when shows are not on he hopefully will be able to fully catch up and in a position to keep both sides happy. One of the biggest issues is Phil waiting for out of stock items to arrive, customers pay for 1 lot of P&P, unlike a large company and on small ticket items additional postage would wipe out any profit (as Martin has indicated in his posts as being one of the biggest bug bears of mail order), perhaps a system where out of stock items will not be charged for and will have to be re-ordered might be one solution 

 

Going fully ecommerce will not work with this type of business, The previous owner could not make it work with a 24 hour turnaround, and prior to C&L taking over the distribution of Exactoscale, the previous regime again failed with their ecommerce offering. In addition to this there are a lot of modellers out there who wish to buy in person, shows allow them to do so.

 

To counter your argument if shows were unprofitable, traders would not attend. The shows I have been to this year trade support has been very good. I would expect most of the traders would prefer to be sitting at home at the weekends seeing the internet orders flood in, rather than have a very busy 3+ days. 

 

The trick is (and I hope Phil is learning) is to keep both sides happy. I am certain this is Phil's aim and in time there will be a vast improvement. If there is competition this may happen sooner rather than later

 

You talk about new technology, Phil's is looking into this and some of the items he now sells are a product of this. The one thing about being a one man band/cottage industry is that you can be nimble and react to what happening, but you also need more than one string to your bow. Shows not only give him access to an additional customer base but also allows him to sell additional items to bring in much needed income

 

Other than a couple of specialist bits I have had no issues in getting products. Yes phone answering its not as good as before, but there are not 4 people working out of the business every working day. Its taken me a maximum of a couple of days at worst to get hold of him. I now plan that it may take a week or so (same as Shapeways) to obtain parts through the post, and its best to order and pay over the phone

 

I have helped a few out in getting items, others have politely declined the offer, as it seems all of a sudden they could get through on the phone or they are happy to wait a bit longer. I will leave you to your own conclusions.

 

Still I am glad its his problem, by the way I don't mind how I buy items, but prefer if I can to support the local model shop 

[hayfield]

Who are they - I've never heard of that one before? - a google search brought up a dance studio rather than anything railway related! 

 

 

Well worth a look if you are interested in track related items

[sharris]

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/otr

 

They could probably do with a standard web-site as a feed into their Shapeways shop to enhance their visibility. Until you put that link up I would have had no idea they existed as they seem to be invisible with normal web searches. 

 

Edit: apparently they do... http://otr.offtherails.x10.mx/ .. interestingly a Mexican domain. 

 

 

 

Well worth a look if you are interested in track related items

 

 

Sadly a bit oversize for me, at least for the foreseeable future. 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by sharris

[AndyID]

Once we get the jaw dimensions adjusted for available code 75 bullhead rail you'll be able to find these and others at Shapeways too.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124414-00-bullhead-printed-pointturnout-bases/page-3&do=findComment&comment=3168456

[60526]

I would repeat what I said in maybe another thread on here about 16.2mm track. the late Frank Dyer of "Borchester" fame built the track for the MRC's New Annington branch in 197i to 16.2mm gauge with 1mm flangeways. Whether or not Borchester was built to 16.2 has been debated on here as well. It's nothing new. 

 

Borchester Market is 16.5mm, there have been posts elsewhere on RMweb about this, we checked the track with a vernier, nothing less than 16.5mm but certainly some gauge widening. Below is Frank's writing which used to be right above his workbench. Why would he have changed it anyway, he was using stock made to his working standard which came from the 1950's, could have even been some from the 1940's.

 

[GNR Dave]

After 9 weeks waiting for my order, my impression is one of disorganisation. When I finally did manage to contact the owner after many unanswered phone calls and emails, I was kept on the line for nearly a quarter of an hour while he searched through what I can only assume was a large pile (piles) of unsent orders. Two days later, a package arrived. Sadly, of the 5 items I ordered, 2 were not included and two were the wrong items. Since then I have been unable to make contact.

 

I hope he can get on top of this. The core C&L product is a good one and it would be a shame if it were to be lost to the model railway community.  

[RBAGE]

After 9 weeks waiting for my order, my impression is one of disorganisation. When I finally did manage to contact the owner after many unanswered phone calls and emails, I was kept on the line for nearly a quarter of an hour while he searched through what I can only assume was a large pile (piles) of unsent orders. Two days later, a package arrived. Sadly, of the 5 items I ordered, 2 were not included and two were the wrong items. Since then I have been unable to make contact.

 

I hope he can get on top of this. The core C&L product is a good one and it would be a shame if it were to be lost to the model railway community.  

The annoying thing is that it's the only game in town so we have no way of demonstrating our frustration. We can't very well walk away and buy these items elsewhere.

 

Some will say it's only a hobby so put it into context but all that is doing is to condone what is a very poor service.

[Sheffield]

It seems to me that running C&L successfully requires more than one person. I gather the previous owner employed two or three. But it also seeems the business is not profitable enough to support that level of staff, and is now run by one person alone. But if that is the case he may eventually decide the battle is not worth it, and there will be no more C&L. I hope some solution can be found. Would we be prepared to pay more, to allow the business to develop and perhaps employ another person?

[rope runner]

I'd suggest that until the current vendor is up on their feet then operating C&L with a view to exhibition-only sales and doing away with mail order may be the most sensible option at present. 

 

Paul A. 

[chris p bacon]

I'd suggest that until the current vendor is up on their feet then operating C&L with a view to exhibition-only sales and doing away with mail order may be the most sensible option at present. 

 

Paul A. 

 

 

Blimey. . .that's lobbing a grenade 

[Porcy Mane]

I'd suggest that until the current vendor is up on their feet then operating C&L with a view to exhibition-only sales and doing away with mail order may be the most sensible option at present. 

 

Which does not help one bit if, as a prospective customer you can't get to the shows, live abroad, etc., etc. Even if you can attend the shows that C&L attend, it's not as if you can ring up*, pre order then collect.

 

How many of us has gone to the C&L stand to buy components recently, only to be told, "Oh, I've left that particular item back at base" or "I haven't brought that with me because it's still boxed up waiting to be unpacked"?

 

A lot of smaller traders that attend shows will tell you that revenue from shows can be very small or even loss making but it keeps their face in the public eye promoting their key income source which is mail order by phone or the interwebby.

 

*see earlier posts.

 

P

 

Edited to add missing letter.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[martin_wynne]

I was kept on the line for nearly a quarter of an hour while he searched through what I can only assume was a large pile (piles) of unsent orders.

 

Which explains why he seems to prefer attending exhibitions. A chance to lock the door on that lot for a few days must be a godsend.

 

Martin.

[sharris]

When I finally did manage to contact the owner after many unanswered phone calls and emails, I was kept on the line for nearly a quarter of an hour

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWhkbDMISl8

[Horsetan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWhkbDMISl8

 

Surely....?

 

[Crosland]

It's a no brainer to me.

 

Skipping a few shows and using the time to clear the backlog, and preparing stock, would lead to satisfied customers and remove the stress of all those unfulfilled orders and unanswered e-mails/'phone calls.

 

"Locking the door for a few days" is clearly not sustainable and is akin to burying ones head in the sand.

[Guy Rixon]

It seems to me that running C&L successfully requires more than one person. I gather the previous owner employed two or three. But it also seeems the business is not profitable enough to support that level of staff, and is now run by one person alone. But if that is the case he may eventually decide the battle is not worth it, and there will be no more C&L. I hope some solution can be found. Would we be prepared to pay more, to allow the business to develop and perhaps employ another person?

 

Personally, I don't think I can afford to pay much more for track parts, not if I want to build my layout at a reasonable rate. I'm already deferring work because of the cost. Further, I'm looking at (potentially) lower-cost alternatives that would cut out much of the trade with C&L. I don't want to take my custom away from C&L but I won't have much choice if the prices go higher, or if the supply continues bad.

 

If Sheffield's assessment of the C&L position is correct, and if I were running that business, I'd be looking urgently for a way to move the mail-order operation to one or more established retailers and to supply them wholesale. I suspect strongly that bulk supply to a retailer is easier to manage than retail mail-order.