C&L Finescale

[darren01]

Just looked at the C+L site, 500 3 bolt chairs £27.50, you telling me they cost this much to make?, and i noticed a lot of the other stuff has shot up in price as well.

Was  going to start a new layout this year, but at the price he is asking, that will not happen.

[3 link]

Just looked at the C+L site, 500 3 bolt chairs £27.50, you telling me they cost this much to make?, and i noticed a lot of the other stuff has shot up in price as well.

Was  going to start a new layout this year, but at the price he is asking, that will not happen.

Are we talking " cost to make ", as in materials? Time taken to produce? Labour and packaging?, I hope Phil doesn't read all these negative replies, as he might just say " sod the lot of you " . Then we would be up the creek without a paddle, because as far as I know there are no other firms producing parts for custom built track work, unless you want to go back to soldering copper paxolin and rail or rivets and rail, because I do not.

 

Give the guy a chance, the old owner had a work force behind him, whereas Phil has only himself at the minute.

 

Martyn.

[hayfield]

Just looked at the C+L site, 500 3 bolt chairs £27.50, you telling me they cost this much to make?, and i noticed a lot of the other stuff has shot up in price as well.

Was  going to start a new layout this year, but at the price he is asking, that will not happen.

 

 

The price of these have gradually increased over the 5 or more years certainly with some products like copperclad everyone's in the same boat, plastic is dependant on the strength of the dollar and the exchange rate with the £, then with businesses coming out of recession they can increase their rates. Its not just the cost of producing the item that dictates its price, running a business become expensive.

 

There have been discussions about prices before and the main reasons are the cost of running a small business, minimum wages , rent, business rates etc. C&L was sold as in its previous state it was not profitable for the owner. To a certain extent Phil's overheads will be smaller which hopefully will make the business profitable again. I am of the opinion most of these businesses are only profitable when run as a cottage industry, or grow to a similar size to Peco where economies of scale kick in, but this is my own opinion which could be wrong

 

Anyway these 500 chairs will make about 4-5 turnouts, that's £7 per turnout, add a bit of rail and a few timbers and the component cost will vary between £12 and £15, which in turn will give you a bespoke turnout or crossing completely different to what's available off the shelf and half the price of Peco's latest offering

 

I have just bought an unmade K's TT scale pannier tank, was priced at 75p (15 shillings actually), these models now sell for 30 to 40 times this cost, using your analogy I should not have bought it

 

But its a free world and if you feel they are too expensive then don't use them

[hayfield]

Are we talking " cost to make ", as in materials? Time taken to produce? Labour and packaging?, I hope Phil doesn't read all these negative replies, as he might just say " sod the lot of you " . Then we would be up the creek without a paddle, because as far as I know there are no other firms producing parts for custom built track work, unless you want to go back to soldering copper paxolin and rail or rivets and rail, because I do not.

 

Give the guy a chance, the old owner had a work force behind him, whereas Phil has only himself at the minute.

 

Martyn.

Martyn

 

The cost of copperclad timbers has rocketed and the cost would be more than 100 chairs then add the cost etchings, what about the additional time these kits take to build and that a moulded chair looks far better (in my mind) than an etched one

[3 link]

Martyn

 

The cost of copperclad timbers has rocketed and the cost would be more than 100 chairs then add the cost etchings, what about the additional time these kits take to build and that a moulded chair looks far better (in my mind) than an etched one

I absolutely agree John,

 

When I first started building my present layout I thought I would be clever and build the turnouts in the fiddle yard in copper paxolin as they would not be on view, and this would save me a bit of money. How wrong I was, I could not believe how the cost of the copper paxolin had shot up !! Saying that the last time I brought some copper paxolin was the early 90's, gosh where does the time go.

 

Anyhow like you say, you cannot beat the look of a mounded chair, especially as I model in 7mm that type of detail does stand out.

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.

[Stephen Freeman]

The only reason that commercially ready built copperclad pointwork is cheaper is that the time involved to build them is much less than those built from mouldings. Mind you, if you are building them for the fiddle yard, you could economise on the number of timbers used.

[hayfield]

The only reason that commercially ready built copperclad pointwork is cheaper is that the time involved to build them is much less than those built from mouldings. Mind you, if you are building them for the fiddle yard, you could economise on the number of timbers used.

Stephen

 

How very right you are, I can remember in the 60's it was very common to build the turnouts from copperclad in fiddle yards, this was for economic reasons. In addition only 1 out of every 3 timbers were used, resulting in a 2/3rds cost reduction in copperclad

 

The way costs can be reduced is to use ply timbers and RTR flexi track, fine for home layouts but for portable ones I would strongly advise the use of plastic timbers for a belt and braces approach

[jim.snowdon]

Just looked at the C+L site, 500 3 bolt chairs £27.50, you telling me they cost this much to make?, and i noticed a lot of the other stuff has shot up in price as well.

Was  going to start a new layout this year, but at the price he is asking, that will not happen.

Given how much a single Peco turnout costs, never mind all the other basic things we use in modelling, £27.50 for 500 chairs is not bad at all.

 

Jim

[Stephen Freeman]

Given how much a single Peco turnout costs, never mind all the other basic things we use in modelling, £27.50 for 500 chairs is not bad at all.

 

Jim

Actually the price of 500 4mm scale chairs is £27.50 and £28.50 for 7mm scale ones. I'm sure that there used to be more of a price differential? Having said that, the labour costs are going to be very similar so the raw material cost is probably not a large proportion of the overall manufacturing cost.

[hayfield]

Actually the price of 500 4mm scale chairs is £27.50 and £28.50 for 7mm scale ones. I'm sure that there used to be more of a price differential? Having said that, the labour costs are going to be very similar so the raw material cost is probably not a large proportion of the overall manufacturing cost.

 

In a supermarket shoppers complain larger boxes and cheaper pro-rata than smaller boxes of goods, as you say its the same cost to handle both

[martin_wynne]

Just looked at the C+L site, 500 3 bolt chairs £27.50, you telling me they cost this much to make?

 

Yes they do.

 

A chair contains less than 1p of plastic and can be moulded in seconds. But that is not what you are paying for.

 

Before even one such chair can be made, a moulding tool is needed -- and that costs thousands of pounds.

 

So the selling price has to pay for that, and create enough income to pay for a new one when it wears out.

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

Yes they do.

 

A chair contains less than 1p of plastic and can be moulded in seconds. But that is not what you are paying for.

 

Before even one such chair can be made, a moulding tool is needed -- and that costs thousands of pounds.

 

So the selling price has to pay for that, and create enough income to pay for a new one when it wears out.

 

Martin.

 

I think the issue martin , that the costs have considerably increased since the purchase of the business.  thats got nothing to do with your argument per se

[Kelly]

Phil has likely had to re-evaluate a lot of the items previously produced and stocked by C&L under Pete. Some were not at a profitable price for him to continue without either stopping them altogether or upping prices I expect. Some items have indeed been dropped from the range and certain items he is no longer able to stock (Peco products being an example), so the business has in effect it would seem been streamlined, so where in the past an item that might not have been quite so profitable as others might have been ok as other areas accounted for it perhaps.

 

The price of the £/$ and price of oil will also have a big impact on anything plastic too.

[Junctionmad]

Phil has likely had to re-evaluate a lot of the items previously produced and stocked by C&L under Pete. Some were not at a profitable price for him to continue without either stopping them altogether or upping prices I expect. Some items have indeed been dropped from the range and certain items he is no longer able to stock (Peco products being an example), so the business has in effect it would seem been streamlined, so where in the past an item that might not have been quite so profitable as others might have been ok as other areas accounted for it perhaps.

 

The price of the £/$ and price of oil will also have a big impact on anything plastic too.

 

The costs associated with injection moulded plastic are largely the design time and tooling costs , The actual cost of the ingredients is minuscule , 1p going to 2p , i.e. 100%  has no effect on a retail price in reality 

 

As someone involved in business for 30 years , retail pricing is largely driven by two factors , (a) The price the retailer believes the market can bear and (b) the degree of Gross margin the retailer needs 

 

(a) is a big factor in competitive business , like food.  ( b) is a big issue in smaller business, where volume is not present to bolster running costs 

 

of course what businesses " justify " as the reason for a price increases is by and far simply disinformation.  A press release that says " Ive increased all products by 10% because I need increased profits so as to buy a new car " tends not to play well in the media !

 

of course in some cases , especially in high value sales, costs of sales is a big factor, but thats different 

 

Phil is of courses entitled to set whatever prices he feels the market can bear, after all its virtually a monopoly situation and a very specialist  business , I merely point out the increases , I have no " moral " position on it 

[Siberian Snooper]

If the price is to steep, people are likely to cut back on purchases by scaling down the size of the next great project or spreading the spend over a longer period of time.

[trustytrev]

Hello,

        I think there is a serious risk using plastic chairs is fast becoming too expensive for hand built track to be a viable proposition for the average modeller. The costs involved in just building even a small layout using these methods means any chance for new younger modellers to start are very unlikely. I have bought these products in more economical times but some of the prices floating about now make this very unlikely for the future. Any plans for for a layout of significant magnitude are rendered non-viable due to financial considerations for many. I understand the need for a profit margin for any commercial activity but it would seem long term returns are no longer acceptable and such returns need to be instant. It does not bode well for the future that such attitudes are so prevalent.

Entrepreneurs in this day and age have my sympathies.

trustytrev.

[Greenmodelmonkey]

Having recently built a very small 7mm shelf layout with 4 turnouts, 2 tracks and circa 3m in length using C&L/Exactoscale products I have to say the overall cost was much higher than originally estimated. This was mainly due to having to buy many more components than actually required and ending up with a large surplus of parts which will not be used but had to pay for in order to complete layout.

 

I believe The higher costs were introduced before the sale of C&L Finescale and the high cost of Exactoscale Fishplates compared to a large bag of Chairs were really expensive for such a small number of parts and this pushed the overall cost of the project upwards.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Greenmodelmonkey

[hayfield]

Hello,

        I think there is a serious risk using plastic chairs is fast becoming too expensive for hand built track to be a viable proposition for the average modeller. The costs involved in just building even a small layout using these methods means any chance for new younger modellers to start are very unlikely. I have bought these products in more economical times but some of the prices floating about now make this very unlikely for the future. Any plans for for a layout of significant magnitude are rendered non-viable due to financial considerations for many. I understand the need for a profit margin for any commercial activity but it would seem long term returns are no longer acceptable and such returns need to be instant. It does not bode well for the future that such attitudes are so prevalent.

Entrepreneurs in this day and age have my sympathies.

trustytrev.

 

 

Trustytrev

 

Using the components (making your own switches and crossings) you can build a turnout for about £15, far cheaper than buying Peco 00 gauge turnouts even from the discount houses. If would be far more expensive building a small layout let alone one of even modest magnitude 

[hayfield]

Having recently built a very small 7mm shelf layout with 4 turnouts, 2 tracks and circa 3m in length using C&L/Exactoscale products I have to say the overall cost was much higher than originally estimated. This was mainly due to having to buy many more components than actually required and ending up with a large surplus of parts which will not be used but had to pay for in order to complete layout.

 

I believe The higher costs were introduced before the sale of C&L Finescale and the high cost of Exactoscale Fishplates compared to a large bag of Chairs were really expensive for such a small number of parts and this pushed the overall cost of the project upwards.

 

Greenmonkey

 

There is a simple solution, for some reason on eBay these will be fought over (especially as there are reported minor supply issues). Clear photo(s) with an accurate description, listed in the correct section will reap rewards. Regarding the cost it has been well reported why these and other components from other suppliers cost so much. How much did you pay for your last loco on 0 gauge ( I bought a cheap one and it was over £200)?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Martyn

 

The cost of copperclad timbers has rocketed and the cost would be more than 100 chairs then add the cost etchings, what about the additional time these kits take to build and that a moulded chair looks far better (in my mind) than an etched one

I recently bought some small copperclad sheets from an electronics supplier for the first time in a while and was surprised at the current price.

[hayfield]

I have had a chance to catch up with Phil, he mentioned that he is trying to work through a backlog of enquiries and orders. Unfortunately unknown to Phil a system of C&L which when turned off affected the incoming emails. Phil is now working through what he has but is finding some of the customer email addresses are missing, might be worthwile giving him a call if you are still waiting 

[MikeH_83]

Question..  When ordering and paying by bank xfer, It says at the top to pay when he has picked it and sent an invoice, but at the bottom of the page it gives you the info and tells you to pay now as does the email you get after placing an order?  Which method has everyone else done?

[Park]

Interesting observation. I just left it with waiting for the email that comes once packed and ready to pay. Maybe this is where it's all going wrong

 

So if we had ordered and paid straight away we would all have our goodies by now ?

 

I suspect I am thinking along the same lines as others. Here is our order, send us an email for payment as instructed if you want our business you will be in touch. No malice against the guy and we all want his business to thrive and supply us what we want

[Ron Heggs]

Question..  When ordering and paying by bank xfer, It says at the top to pay when he has picked it and sent an invoice, but at the bottom of the page it gives you the info and tells you to pay now as does the email you get after placing an order?  Which method has everyone else done?

 

Hi, Mike

 

Knowing how busy Phil is, I suggest you pay as soon as possible after placing your order, that will cut out the requirement for him to take time out to send you a return email. It also means he can pick you order and post it, knowing that he does not need to chase payment, and have picked orders waiting for confirmation of payment

 

I pay by Credit Card, after giving Phil a couple of days to go through his orders, etc. I phone him with the credit card details, and he can pick the order and post, usually all within a day

 

Ron

[hayfield]

Question..  When ordering and paying by bank xfer, It says at the top to pay when he has picked it and sent an invoice, but at the bottom of the page it gives you the info and tells you to pay now as does the email you get after placing an order?  Which method has everyone else done?

 

 

Interesting observation. I just left it with waiting for the email that comes once packed and ready to pay. Maybe this is where it's all going wrong

 

So if we had ordered and paid straight away we would all have our goodies by now ?

 

I suspect I am thinking along the same lines as others. Here is our order, send us an email for payment as instructed if you want our business you will be in touch. No malice against the guy and we all want his business to thrive and supply us what we want

 

 

I had a chat with Phil on Tuesday, the way he had hoped the system would work was not as seamless as he had hoped and in fact there was an issue with part of the email system being being affected by something else owned by the previous owner being turned off, at this moment it would be wise to give Phil a call whilst the new system is being bedded in