C&L Finescale

[jonhall]

 

Is he likely to be at the Canterbury show?

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=10

 

Lists 29 shows in 2018, of which Canterbury is not on the list, but Tonbridge is. 

 

Jon

[Junctionmad]

Very funny and shows how little you know about running a business and attending shows on a regular basis

 

If you are trading at a 2 day show (within a few hours drive from home) the day before is for packing the van and setting up at the show, 2 days trading and the morning of the 4th day unpacking. For a company in the South East attending a Scottish show, then packing up the van is the Thursday afternoon, one days travelling and setting up, 3 night stay, the Monday spent travelling back and the Tuesday morning unpacking. So a 2 day show is eating up the best of 5 days. These guys are driving loaded up vans, not drinking wine whilst being flown across the Atlantic !!

 

Those are just the days committed to the show, given that the person would have started working on the Monday that means 12 days without a break, a local show will eat up 3.5 days, a trip to Scotland and back the best part of 5 days, On top of that you expect the trader to run a mail order business the week before and the week after. I guess you then expect goods sent out by return even when the one man business is attending shows.

 

Would I be a trader attending shows, no way. Happy to help out now and then providing I can go home easily between the 2 days the show is open. To be quite honest I have no idea how some actually cope where they attend lots of shows

Well John , either Phil is " show" orientated , which some here have suggested or he runs an efficient on line mail order business and forgoes ( most ) shows completely , I have been in business for close on 35 years as a small businessman and I have experience of online businesses to this day and in fact I'm starting a new one ,

 

I have outlined on this thread what I believe is the modern way to run an efficient online business that maximises time and efficiency, accepting cheques and running back orders isn't a way to do that , nor in fact is attending shows at all.

 

As for working 5 , 8 , 10 , 20 days on the trot , welcome to the world of the startup ( John & Phil )( edited to add ) , I didn't get a single holiday for the first two years of my first startup. you do what is needed to succeed. A businmess isn't a hobby and never should be treated like that.

 

 

The serous point is attending a show has to based on cold business logic, either the continuous selling opportunity over 2 days is worth it , i.e. The 5 days or so , or it's not , similarly even a " local " show has to be evaluated coldly , I suspect many a small trader might be caught in a " busy fool " loop.

 

My comment had an emoji by the way , it was not meant to taken seriously , I would always wish the best for anyone starting out on their own , I know the road very well.

 

PS . looking at Phil's exhibition diary , it's seems impossible for a single person to attend that many shows quite frankly and still maintain a functioning business, it can't be sustainable, there are several months where every weekend is committed.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Jol Wilkinson]

Most Small Suppliers try to run a balance between the two business models. Particularly for the kit suppliers, having a personal "interface" with the customer definitely enhances customer relations.

 

However, 29 shows in a year is rather excessive. Clearly some smaller local shows will be relatively low cost, but given the rather specialist nature of C&L's products, concentrating on the gauge Society and larger regional "finescale" shows such as York, Railex, etc.would be more efficient.

[Junctionmad]

Most Small Suppliers try to run a balance between the two business models. Particularly for the kit suppliers, having a personal "interface" with the customer definitely enhances customer relations.

However, 29 shows in a year is rather excessive. Clearly some smaller local shows will be relatively low cost, but given the rather specialist nature of C&L's products, concentrating on the gauge Society and larger regional "finescale" shows such as York, Railex, etc.would be more efficient.

I agree, unless you have employees either doing the show , or minding the shop, the impact on the bussiness of devoting successive weekends and then losing the shoulder workdays will be significant, never mind the effect on ones personal life, it can't make business sense

 

Ps I do not agree any more with " personal " presence. This is the age of internet shopping , Jeff bezos isn't the worlds richest man because of personal relations

 

Personal relations these days is measured in online presence , responsiveness , etc not in physical relationships. Do you see the thousands of one man band sellers on amazon marketplace at shows, no you don't

Edited January 18, 2018 by Junctionmad

[polybear]

Very funny and shows how little you know about running a business and attending shows on a regular basis

 

If you are trading at a 2 day show (within a few hours drive from home) the day before is for packing the van and setting up at the show, 2 days trading and the morning of the 4th day unpacking. For a company in the South East attending a Scottish show, then packing up the van is the Thursday afternoon, one days travelling and setting up, 3 night stay, the Monday spent travelling back and the Tuesday morning unpacking. So a 2 day show is eating up the best of 5 days. These guys are driving loaded up vans, not drinking wine whilst being flown across the Atlantic !!

 

Those are just the days committed to the show, given that the person would have started working on the Monday that means 12 days without a break, a local show will eat up 3.5 days, a trip to Scotland and back the best part of 5 days, On top of that you expect the trader to run a mail order business the week before and the week after. I guess you then expect goods sent out by return even when the one man business is attending shows.

 

Would I be a trader attending shows, no way. Happy to help out now and then providing I can go home easily between the 2 days the show is open.  To be quite honest I have no idea how some actually cope where they attend lots of shows

 

Not to mention the sheer costs involved.  I know of traders who have dropped Ally Pally this year because the stand rent alone is in the order of 1K (and then they charge for leccy on top!!).  Add two or three days accomodation, fuel, food etc. (and quite often salary for a helper/staff) and you can wave bye bye to the best part of 2K very easily.  So you need to make that much profit just to break even.  It becomes a lot of work just to achieve a box shifting exercise, with little to show for it.

[Junctionmad]

Not to mention the sheer costs involved.  I know of traders who have dropped Ally Pally this year because the stand rent alone is in the order of 1K (and then they charge for leccy on top!!).  Add two or three days accomodation, fuel, food etc. (and quite often salary for a helper/staff) and you can wave bye bye to the best part of 2K very easily.  So you need to make that much profit just to break even.  It becomes a lot of work just to achieve a box shifting exercise, with little to show for it.

Indeed , as I argued elsewhere in this thread , it's not a good use of a one man bands time

[hayfield]

Indeed , as I argued elsewhere in this thread , it's not a good use of a one man bands time

 

Attending shows is an important part of the business model, it has its drawbacks but is an important part of making the products visible and available to modellers

[gordon s]

I hate to disagree with you John, but there's no point whatsoever in making the product visible to modellers if when they come to order it a) they have no idea when it will arrive and b) to having to wait more than a week these days for delivery is the kiss of death.  

 

I know it's not my business, but my first priority must be to protect my existing customer base and satisfy all those who have paid for their product long before taking days out to go to shows.  The costs of the stand alone, plus travelling time, hotels etc would probably write off any possible profit on sales and unless they are sales from stock on the day, you are simply building up a tidal wave of existing orders plus all these new ones from the shows with little or no chance of getting them out in the remaining time.

 

As a customer for the last 10 years, I really want C & L to survive, but it would appear the priorities are all wrong.  

[martin_wynne]

I hate to disagree with you John, but there's no point whatsoever in making the product visible to modellers if when they come to order it a) they have no idea when it will arrive and b) to having to wait more than a week these days for delivery is the kiss of death.

 

I do think that things are a bit different when dealing with a cottage industry making parts which are not available elsewhere.

 

Consider Ultrascale Wheels, who have been running happily for years despite having delivery dates in months for standard production items: http://www.ultrascale.uk/

 

From their web site: "Delivery Time: Our current delivery on production items can be up to 8 months from receipt of order. Orders in Progress: The following orders are currently being processed: 05/06/2017 to 16/06/2017"

 

If C&L is going to survive, Phil has to find a way of working that he is happy with. If he likes to go to lots of shows to meet and talk to his customers, that's his choice. If it doesn't fit with textbook business practice, too bad.

 

What he shouldn't do of course, is accept orders and/or payment without making the situation clear.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

I think there's a subtle difference between the two though Martin.  

 

Having Ultrascale wheels is a 'nice to have' and indeed, I have joined the queue with others to wait my turn.  Meanwhile my loco was running and things move on.  

 

Not having sleeper strip or rail with which to build my track, stops my build programme in it's tracks.  Right now I still have some rail to tide me over, but another time it may be different and to see something in stock, pay for it up front plus delivery charges by BACS and then waiting several weeks for the product to arrive must make me question priorities.

 

There are only so many hours in the day, so something has to give.  Protect what you have first and then build on that.

[martin_wynne]

Not having sleeper strip or rail with which to build my track, stops my build programme in it's tracks.  Right now I still have some rail to tide me over, but another time it may be different and to see something in stock, pay for it up front plus delivery charges by BACS and then waiting several weeks for the product to arrive must make me question priorities.

 

Hi Gordon,

 

But rail and sleeper strip are available elsewhere. If only C&L brand will do, you have to accept C&L's way of working. In the meantime, wagon kits? signals? build the sand furnace for the MPD?

 

There is so much to do on a model railway that there is always something to get on with. If that is acceptable to you for Ultrascale, why not C&L? What's the difference? Both are one-man craft/cottage industries.

 

I was in Phil's position for 10 years in the 1970s-80s making and supplying track kits and components, and I do feel for him. However, there is one golden rule -- you never ever cash the cheque or charge the card until you have licked the stamps. Otherwise C&L are heading for grief -- suppose Phil was ill for several weeks? Or his workshop was flooded? Or anything? Imagine packing tiny components with a broken arm in plaster.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

I totally agree with your last paragraph as I was thinking the same.  I hesitated about posting at all as this is nothing to do with my own order. I'm sure that will arrive shortly.  

 

It was more my own slant on running a business.  I accept I've always run companies with turnover in millions and that size of organisation may be worlds apart from a sole trader, but the fundamental decisions on priorities are still the same, probably even more so with fewer resources.

 

No problem having a different viewpoint.  I only stopped for some lunch whilst building ET....

[Guy Rixon]

For a specialised shop like C&L, attending shows has a major advantage: it's much easier to advise customers at the stand than on the 'phone. If Phil has a new customer who doesn't quite understand the range, then Phil can just show the customer the products and show how they should be assembled. Ten minutes conversation at a show might avoid 30 minutes on the 'phone, spread over several calls.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Ps I do not agree any more with " personal " presence. This is the age of internet shopping , Jeff bezos isn't the worlds richest man because of personal relations

 

Personal relations these days is measured in online presence , responsiveness , etc not in physical relationships. Do you see the thousands of one man band sellers on amazon marketplace at shows, no you don't

 

You are making an invalid comparison for a variety of reasons. Firstly Jeff Bezo (Amazon) started of as a re-seller of other peoples products books - and set up a disruptive business model that appealed to two of societies major attributes, greed and laziness. Most internet business operate as re-sellers or as company owned outlets for major brands such as a Apple. In these cases the buyer has identified what they want, seek it at the lowest price  Buying RTR product online, where the brand owner creates the demand and then lets the re-sellers fight over the customers fits that. Some buyers want to feel part of a special club and will buy direct from the suppliers own outlet - even at premium prices - believing it confers some sort of special status.

 

Many people, especially in the older age group, still enjoy the opportunity for face to face interaction with the supplier. I believe that is especially true where we are talking about someone supplying a unique product or where the ability to have a one to one discussion about the product is beneficial. That applies to the "Smaller Suppliers"  such as C&L, so attending shows is not a bad thing, provided he can concentrate on those that attract the highest ratio of potential customers.

[gordon s]

Can't argue with that either if you are selling big ticket items.  The problem as always is about time and money.  I have no problem at all with lifestyle businesses where the owner is happy, the clients are happy with the product, but fundamentally the rewards are small compared to the outlay in time.  

 

These numbers are really off the top of my head and very simplistic, but if you want to make £100k in a year and your overall net profit after all your costs is 10%, you have to have a million in sales.  You can't work 24 hours a day, 52 weeks a year, so lets take 8 hours a day and 48 weeks a year, that 1920 hours a year.  With a million in sales that's £520 for every hour you're working.  I struggle to see how you can take days at a show chatting to people when you have to shift £4160 of invoiced sales every day and no one else is doing that for you.  Even more so when the unit costs of the products you are selling is low.  Every order needs the same amount of time to pack and invoice whether it's worth £50 or £500.

 

If you can make more money with less personal effort elsewhere, then you have to question why go down that route.  The stress on you, your health and the well being of your family must take priority.

 

Right, back to my layout build.  I tried so hard not to say my bit.......

Edited January 19, 2018 by gordon s

[hayfield]

Gordon

 

Attending shows has several benefits which outweigh the disadvantages of disrupting normal business activities, plus these dates have been in the diary for months.

 

The trick all traders have to do is to keep the mail order side going whilst at shows, hopefully Phil's problems will resolve themselves over time as he gets a grip on the business

[martin_wynne]

Older readers may remember Mike Sharman's Wheels, where he refused mail order and sold only at shows. It seemed to work for him. Customers who couldn't attend a show would get a friend to obtain their requirements for them.

 

I remember an ExpoEM exhibition at the Great Western Hotel in Paddington where the queue at Mike's stand was out the back and round the block.

 

Martin.

[brossard]

All very well if you live in the UK Martin.  What if you live halfway across the world?  There has to be a balance and Phil needs to find his from what I've read here.

 

John

[jonhall]

 

These numbers are really off the top of my head and very simplistic, but if you want to make £100k in a year and your overall net profit after all your costs is 10%, you have to have a million in sales.  You can't work 24 hours a day, 52 weeks a year, so lets take 8 hours a day and 48 weeks a year, that 1920 hours a year.  With a million in sales that's £520 for every hour you're working.  I struggle to see how you can take days at a show chatting to people when you have to shift £4160 of invoiced sales every day and no one else is doing that for you.  Even more so when the unit costs of the products you are selling is low.  Every order needs the same amount of time to pack and invoice whether it's worth £50 or £500.

 

 

I suspect that Phil would be very satisfied with a great deal less return than £100k  pa, but that his margin is also probably a great deal better than 10%, but I do agree, turning out to 29 shows in a year is OTT, even if a number are local/low key, its still a day or more which could be better spent some other way.

 

Like everything else, running a business gets easier/better with practice, and I'm quite sure Phil will get there in the end, he just needs us to show a little patience whilst he works his way up the learning curve.

 

Jon

[martin_wynne]

All very well if you live in the UK Martin. What if you live halfway across the world?

 

Well I imagine you place your order the same way as everyone else.

 

You get a reply saying "Thank you for your order. Despatches to your part of the world are made on the 3rd Wednesday of the month, and the next one will be on the 18th of this month. Unfortunately item xxx is currently out of stock and is unlikely to be back in stock by that date. The item will be removed from your order unless you let us know that you want the order held until it is available."

 

Which brings back memories. In those days I had a rubber stamp. Nowadays we have computers and web sites.

 

Martin.

[brossard]

Ha ha, Martin, the bad old days.  I used to order from W&H Models before the Interthingy, quite a chore.  Nowadays I get things shipped the same or next day and wait 7 - 10 days as a rule.  The real bargain is that I usually get VAT knocked off.  I'm supposed to pay GST here but the revenooers rarely bother with me.

 

John

[hayfield]

I too live "sarf o' the river" as the london cabbies say, near Ashford, Kent. 5 minutes form the M20. I drive on a fairly regular basis to South Mimms, where the M25 and A1 cross, to drive rail replacement buses. A distance of about 84 miles, it can "sometimes be done in 75 minutes; sometimes it has taken 5 hours. 

 

For the chap from C&L who I believe lives in Epsom, his journey to Stevenage could take far longer as he has not only half the M25 to contend with but possibly the Dartford Crossing, depending what way he goes round! His journey is probably the same as mine, about 84 miles and if he went on a Friday to a show in Stevenage could be faced with the 5 hour M25 chaos! Yes indeed, we might just as well be in America!

 

Meanwhile I'll try phoning again tomorrow and see if I get an answer.

 

Is he likely to be at the Canterbury show?

 

 

Southampton, then Tonbridge

[Greenmodelmonkey]

As this product base is a now produced in a cottage industry type way we should respect this and just be thankful that it's still being produced, even if the speed and availability is not what it used to be....

[KalKat]

Hummm............................. I'm probably going to cause ructions with this - but here goes..........

 

It seems odd that having taken over a company that is possibly most people's choice for buying track components, Phil* has managed to arrange himself into a corner.

 

He seems to have little time available to pick,pack and send orders whilst 'on shed' because he has shows to attend.  Looking at the show diary, it would appear he will be inordinately busy packing, attending then unpacking for shows, all with the attendant travel too. Now this wouldn't be an issue if you could collect at shows , but on the front of his site it states -

 

I am suspending the arrangement for the time being of orders to be collect at show as this has had a big impact on my time when I should be restocking the stand their are some exceptions to this rule by arrangement.

 

I am concerned that if this situation continues, will C + L be up for sale again soon?

 

 

 

Emma

 

 

*I couldn’t find the gentleman's surname

[martin_wynne]

Now this wouldn't be an issue if you could collect at shows

 

Presumably you can buy what you want at shows, if available. You could then cancel an outstanding mail order for the same items.

 

The big difference is if available. Phil's problem with outstanding orders is almost certainly that some items are in stock and some not, or are not yet packed ready for despatch. So getting complete orders ready for collection in time for a show is a big headache, while simultaneously preparing for the show.

 

One big advantage of attending shows is that you can get some turnover for what you actually have in stock, without all the hassle of mail orders containing items which you don't.

 

Been there, got the T-shirt.

 

Martin.