Caledonian railway coaches

[drduncan]

Dear all,

As someone who knows absolutely nothing about Caledonian Railway coaches could you advise me on suitable manufactures of kits for non corridor composite and brake composite examples running around 1907. Caledonian coaches cropped up on the GW & LNW joint and in interested in replicating some of the express and through coach workings. Also books giving prototype information on CR coaches would be a help too.

Thanks

Drduncan

[Steamport Southport]

I know little about Caledonian Railway coaches but Caley Coaches have a selection. They may be a bit late for your time though. http://www.caleycoaches.co.uk/grampian.php

 

 

It's worth a look at the Caledonian Railway Association website. I found out a fair bit from there whilst looking for information on Pugs. There is a very useful forum.

 

They also have a selection of books including ones on carriages and liveries. I can't comment on those as I've never seen them in the flesh. They are definitely on the shopping list though.

 

http://www.crassoc.org.uk/cra/index.php

 

 

 

Jason

[drduncan]

I know little about Caledonian Railway coaches but Caley Coaches have a selection. They may be a bit late for your time though. http://www.caleycoaches.co.uk/grampian.php

 

 

It's worth a look at the Caledonian Railway Association website. I found out a fair bit from there whilst looking for information on Pugs. There is a very useful forum.

 

They also have a selection of books including ones on carriages and liveries. I can't comment on those as I've never seen them in the flesh. They are definitely on the shopping list though.

 

http://www.crassoc.org.uk/cra/index.php

 

 

 

Jason

Thanks!

Drduncan

[Leander]

 

http://www.billhudsontransportbooks.co.uk/selected-product.php?prod=caledonian+railway+carriages&pid=11742

 

May be of use!

[drduncan]

 

http://www.billhudsontransportbooks.co.uk/selected-product.php?prod=caledonian+railway+carriages&pid=11742

 

May be of use!

I shall add it to the list of inter library loans.

Thanks

Drduncan

[Caley Jim]

As someone who knows absolutely nothing about Caledonian Railway coaches could you advise me on suitable manufactures of kits for non corridor composite and brake composite examples running around 1907. ......

Drduncan

The etched kits produced originally by John Boyle are now being made available by Alba Models http://www.albarailwaymodels.co.uk/kits_coaches.html .

 

Jim

[drduncan]

The etched kits produced originally by John Boyle are now being made available by Alba Models http://www.albarailwaymodels.co.uk/kits_coaches.html .

 

Jim

The 45footers lol just the ticket. I hope they will do them in 4mm scale!

Thanks

Drduncan

[flubrush]

The 45footers lol just the ticket. I hope they will do them in 4mm scale!

 

 

You have to watch out which coaches you model if you want them to be seen on another company's rails.  The Caledonian was a Westinghouse line and most of their coaches were only fitted for air brakes,  so not easily transferrable onto a vacuum braked company's system, like the majority of railway companies in Britain.   Some Caledonian coaches were dual fitted but you would probably have to work your way through Mike William's book to find out which ones were.   The London/Scotland traffic via the LNWR and the Caledonian used West Coast Joint Stock which was dual fitted.

 

Jim.

[ian@stenochs]

You have to watch out which coaches you model if you want them to be seen on another company's rails.  The Caledonian was a Westinghouse line and most of their coaches were only fitted for air brakes,  so not easily transferrable onto a vacuum braked company's system, like the majority of railway companies in Britain.   Some Caledonian coaches were dual fitted but you would probably have to work your way through Mike William's book to find out which ones were.   The London/Scotland traffic via the LNWR and the Caledonian used West Coast Joint Stock which was dual fitted.

 

Jim.

On the other hand some companies had dual fitted locomotives so that they could handle foreign stock. The Sou'West had quite a few. David Smith recounts their use in his 'Tales of the G&SWR' where no less than 6 Westinghouse fitted excursions were handed over in one day at Muirkirk for an outing to Stranraer. Try reproducing that in model form!

 

Ian.

[scotcent]

It  is  said  that  the  L & Y  (a  Westinghouse  line,  I  believe)  used  to  run  excursions  to  Scotland  during  Wakes  weeks  and  such,  and  the  Caley  used  the  stock  internally  while  it  was  here.  The  Caley  ran  excursions  down  there  on  a  similar  basis  during  the  Fair  holidays.  It  is  also  said  that  there  was  some  exchange  of  coaching  stock  with  the  NER  during  holiday  periods.  Unfortunately  much  of  this  information  is  apocryphal,  and  there  is  little  hard  knowledge  on  the  subject

 

Allan  F

[Londontram]

In 1907 you were just coming into the Grampian period. The Grampians being the Caledonians new premier 65ft express carriages, built mainly for use within Scotland there was one diagram built especially for inter regional traffic. Known as the Taunton brake these carriages were used for the through service being passed from the Caledonian over the LNWR to the GWR 

   The carriage was the duel braked diagram 95B brake comp having two first and five third class compartments as well as a brake and luggage compartment at one end. I believe Caley coaches do a model of this carriage in 4mm. Obviously this is very late for your period and is a large gangway connected carriage but although some of the 45ft coaches were duel fitted I don't recall any references of these working regularly as far south as the Great western.

    As Scotcent says as well as lending the 45ft coaches to other railways with air brakes for things like wakes weeks I believe they were also lent to the NER to help bring all the Scottish fisher girls down to the east coast for the big Herring campaigns so could have been seen at far south as Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft

 

   As Leander pointed out the Caledonian carriage book is an outstanding book covering all developments of Caledonian carriage right from the first 4 wheelers inherited from the early company's who went on to initially form the Caledonian up to the last built carriages from around the time of the grouping, its very well illustrated with lots of high quality pictures and drawings. Steve

 

PS at a pinch with a bit of cut and shut some fox bogies and a new roof the old Triang clerestory carriages can be made into a very passable Caledonian 45ft carriage unfortunately even though being almost dimensionally correct the Triang Grampians need a lot of work to make them real "Grampians"  being built on BR MK 1 underframes by Triang to keep costs down they really need new ends and 6 wheel bogies plus better underframe detail the other down side is Triang only made two diagrams the diagram 94 comp and I believe (Don't quote me on this as I'm writing this with out checking) the diagram 95A brake comp I'm in the process of drawing on Inkscape with the view for future cutting on the silhouette machine the parts for a diagram 96 full third and a diagram 97 brake third which should give me the chance to run a more proto typical Grampian four carriage rake

[ian@stenochs]

It  is  said  that  the  L & Y  (a  Westinghouse  line,  I  believe)  used  to  run  excursions  to  Scotland  during  Wakes  weeks  and  such,  and  the  Caley  used  the  stock  internally  while  it  was  here.  The  Caley  ran  excursions  down  there  on  a  similar  basis  during  the  Fair  holidays.  It  is  also  said  that  there  was  some  exchange  of  coaching  stock  with  the  NER  during  holiday  periods.  Unfortunately  much  of  this  information  is  apocryphal,  and  there  is  little  hard  knowledge  on  the  subject

 

Allan  F

 

The Caledonian and Sou'West ran through trains from Ayr to Edinburgh via Muirkirk.  The coaching stock was provided by both companies with engines being changed at Muirkirk.  During the lay over period at Ayr the Sou'West used the stock for a local service to Dalmellington until the Caley found out!  

 

During Glasgow Fair the Sou'West borrowed coaching stock from the Midland and there was a reciprocal arrangement during some of the wakes weeks.  Both companies used the vacuum brake.

 

Ian. 

[Nick Holliday]

It  is  said  that  the  L & Y  (a  Westinghouse  line,  I  believe)  used  to  run  excursions  to  Scotland  during  Wakes  weeks  and  such,  and  the  Caley  used  the  stock  internally  while  it  was  here.  The  Caley  ran  excursions  down  there  on  a  similar  basis  during  the  Fair  holidays.  It  is  also  said  that  there  was  some  exchange  of  coaching  stock  with  the  NER  during  holiday  periods.  Unfortunately  much  of  this  information  is  apocryphal,  and  there  is  little  hard  knowledge  on  the  subject

 

Allan  F

According to Ahrons and Barry Lane the L&YR did initially adopt the Westinghouse Brake in 1881, but a few years later changed to the automatic vacuum system, probably due to the preferences of its near neighbours.  The Westinghouse brakes were mainly concentrated on the Manchester-Bradford and Leeds trains and Manchester - Hellifield for connections to Scotland via the Midland. Whether the change resulted in a surplus of Westinghouse fitted stock, or a shortage, is difficult to tell, but presumably any excursions to Scotland would have seen any spare W fitted coaches marshalled together for sending northwards.

[drduncan]

It  is  said  that  the  L & Y  (a  Westinghouse  line,  I  believe)  used  to  run  excursions  to  Scotland  during  Wakes  weeks  and  such,  and  the  Caley  used  the  stock  internally  while  it  was  here.  The  Caley  ran  excursions  down  there  on  a  similar  basis  during  the  Fair  holidays.  It  is  also  said  that  there  was  some  exchange  of  coaching  stock  with  the  NER  during  holiday  periods.  Unfortunately  much  of  this  information  is  apocryphal,  and  there  is  little  hard  knowledge  on  the  subject

 

Allan  F

In the GWR 1913 summer working timetable there is an enigmatic reference to an l & yexcursion leaving Penzance which then seems to disappear after Newton Abbott!

D

[drduncan]

In 1907 you were just coming into the Grampian period. The Grampians being the Caledonians new premier 65ft express carriages, built mainly for use within Scotland there was one diagram built especially for inter regional traffic. Known as the Taunton brake these carriages were used for the through service being passed from the Caledonian over the LNWR to the GWR 

   The carriage was the duel braked diagram 95B brake comp having two first and five third class compartments as well as a brake and luggage compartment at one end. I believe Caley coaches do a model of this carriage in 4mm. Obviously this is very late for your period and is a large gangway connected carriage but although some of the 45ft coaches were duel fitted I don't recall any references of these working regularly as far south as the Great western.

    As Scotcent says as well as lending the 45ft coaches to other railways with air brakes for things like wakes weeks I believe they were also lent to the NER to help bring all the Scottish fisher girls down to the east coast for the big Herring campaigns so could have been seen at far south as Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft

 

   As Leander pointed out the Caledonian carriage book is an outstanding book covering all developments of Caledonian carriage right from the first 4 wheelers inherited from the early company's who went on to initially form the Caledonian up to the last built carriages from around the time of the grouping, its very well illustrated with lots of high quality pictures and drawings. Steve

 

PS at a pinch with a bit of cut and shut some fox bogies and a new roof the old Triang clerestory carriages can be made into a very passable Caledonian 45ft carriage unfortunately even though being almost dimensionally correct the Triang Grampians need a lot of work to make them real "Grampians"  being built on BR MK 1 underframes by Triang to keep costs down they really need new ends and 6 wheel bogies plus better underframe detail the other down side is Triang only made two diagrams the diagram 94 comp and I believe (Don't quote me on this as I'm writing this with out checking) the diagram 95A brake comp

Thanks. Very interesting. Until 1913 the gwr programme gives no length info then in 1913 it refers to the CR coaches as 57 ft not 65 ft.

D

[drduncan]

Chaps,

Thanks for a the posts. I'm intrigued by the triang cut and shut suggestion to make a 45ft brake composite. I don't suppose any of you could pm me a suitable pdf drawing to have a look at?

Regards

Drduncan

[Londontram]

Here's the link to my Caley carriage thread with lots cut and shut info you might find interesting

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78165-steves-caledonian-coaches-wagon-work-bench/

 

If you can PM me an email address I can send you a selection of side on drawings of 45ft Caley coaches.

If you use two compartment sections from the brake thirds you can make a full third (though this works out as a scale 48ft which is no problem as the Caley made a 48ft version so it works out OK.

    Don't get rid of the left over brake sections as when joined together they can be used to make a quite convincing 6 wheel full brake (Actually the blank side panels are out by one but nobody's noticed on mine yet) with doing the full third you end up with one compartment and two brake sections left over with some careful cutting and a new end you can use another Triang brake third to make a Caledonian brake third (You can see more of this on my thread)

   It might seem a waste but the center sections from three comps can be made into a full first. Its never a waste to me as I use the left over bits to make 6 wheel coaches as well so don't often have much left over I cant use.

     The Triang comp is an almost perfect match to a Caley comp so just needs the roof doing (As do all of them)

 

In service the usual Caley rake was in multiples of four made up as a basic brake third a full third a full first and a second brake third with maybe a second full third or a comp to bulk it out to five or six coaches on an if and when bases.

   As I say if you can pm me an email address I send the drawings over to you

[drduncan]

Here's the link to my Caley carriage thread with lots cut and shut info you might find interesting

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78165-steves-caledonian-coaches-wagon-work-bench/

 

If you can PM me an email address I can send you a selection of side on drawings of 45ft Caley coaches.

If you use two compartment sections from the brake thirds you can make a full third (though this works out as a scale 48ft which is no problem as the Caley made a 48ft version so it works out OK.

    Don't get rid of the left over brake sections as when joined together they can be used to make a quite convincing 6 wheel full brake (Actually the blank side panels are out by one but nobody's noticed on mine yet) with doing the full third you end up with one compartment and two brake sections left over with some careful cutting and a new end you can use another Triang brake third to make a Caledonian brake third (You can see more of this on my thread)

   It might seem a waste but the center sections from three comps can be made into a full first. Its never a waste to me as I use the left over bits to make 6 wheel coaches as well so don't often have much left over I cant use.

     The Triang comp is an almost perfect match to a Caley comp so just needs the roof doing (As do all of them)

 

In service the usual Caley rake was in multiples of four made up as a basic brake third a full third a full first and a second brake third with maybe a second full third or a comp to bulk it out to five or six coaches on an if and when bases.

   As I say if you can pm me an email address I send the drawings over to you

That would be fantastic! Thank you so much. PM sent.

Drduncan

[flubrush]

If you use two compartment sections from the brake thirds you can make a full third (though this works out as a scale 48ft which is no problem as the Caley made a 48ft version so it works out OK.

 

Going back to the earlier discussion,  the 48ft coaches were dual fitted so could,  technically,  go anywhere in the UK.  I've just started making some of the 48ft stock in 1:32 scale so I'm up on its details at the moment. :-)

 

Jim.

[drduncan]

Dear Jim,

Apologies for the slow response.

 

Any info wil be very gratefully received.

Duncan

[drduncan]

Dear all,

Has anyone tried kit bashing Ratio Midland suburban coaches rather than cutting and shutting triang clerestories?

Drduncan

[Londontram]

I've used the Ratio GWR coaches to make a Caledonian 4 wheel brake third and a 4 wheel full passenger brake but have never looked at the ratio midland coaches. Back in the day I stock piled the Triang coaches and must have had about 30 at one time and still have about half a dozen left for future projects so I've never needed to I'm afraid sorry.

         Apart from the basic 6 wheel and bogie third, first and brake coaches where I still think cut and shut has a useful future for some of the more obscure coaches I work with the silhouette cutter more now days.

      Like most people I have such a back log of projects and as well as the Triang conversions I have a selection of etched coach kits to wade through including a nice 45ft coupe (which most likely will be the only one of that lot that will get built) but the real problem is the silhouette list which just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

     At the moment I'm sitting on drawings of an ex WCJS 50f diner, seven coaches some bogie some 6 wheel both mail and parcel vans for a full WCJS TPO as well as about 8 or 10 drawings for various NPCS vehicles. The problem is its to easy just to sit in the arm chair of an evening with a nice cup of tea and just draw. I tell you what I'll need to live to be 120 at least to get through this lot. 

[drduncan]

That sounds like an impressive set of projects, do post updates and photos as they progress!

D