More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Crimson Rambler]

A question if I may please Stephen @Compound2632 - were the ED examples of the three-plank drop side wagons, as they were not in revenue service, given their own number series or were they just mixed up with the others?

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

A question if I may please Stephen @Compound2632 - were the ED examples of the three-plank drop side wagons, as they were not in revenue service, given their own number series or were they just mixed up with the others?

 

They were numbered in the general goods wagon series. The same goes for loco coal wagons and other Stores Department wagons such as those for rails and sleepers; also other service wagons such as crane match wagons. Ballast brakes were numbered in the general brake van series.

 

The Railway Companies (Accounts and Returns) Act 1911 required service vehicles to be reported separately, so for 1913-1922 we know that the total number of ballast wagons and ballast brakes was just over 2,700. There were probably not more than 100 ballast brakes. My gut feeling is that that number can be extrapolated back at least to the 1890s, when the Midland's wagon population reached its final level, and possibly further back on the principle that the number of ballast wagons would be roughly proportional to running line mileage.

[Rail-Online]

Stephen,

 

A couple of questions, firstly are the numbers of the two ballast brakes recorded (I would guess the leading one was written off?), secondly given it is 1925 could some of the ballast wagons be from a non MR origin (or indeed were they al LMS)?    Furthermore 3 plankers were all pooled and although they 'should' have been LMS wagons the engineering dept could have pinched someone elses wagon?

 

Tony

[Rail-Online]

Nothing like answering your own question!  I missed the link to the actual report which I have now found............

 

The ballast brakes were Nos 840 and 832, the former possibly written off due to being 'Badly Smashed'

 

I think it strange that the report lists the damaged wagons as 'Midland Ballast Wagon' etc rather than LMS etc - was this normal at this date I wonder?

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Rail-Online said:

Nothing like answering your own question!  I missed the link to the actual report which I have now found............

 

The ballast brakes were Nos 840 and 832, the former possibly written off due to being 'Badly Smashed'

 

I think it strange that the report lists the damaged wagons as 'Midland Ballast Wagon' etc rather than LMS etc - was this normal at this date I wonder?

 

I suppose someone was writing down what the numberplates said, which would be "MIDLAND". Midland wagons were not renumbered by the LMS, other constituents being renumbered by the addition of a round number - LNWR wagon numbers were increased by 200,000. (I don't know the numbers for other constituents - anyone?) Consequently, Midland wagons retained their Midland numberplates whereas I think other constituent companies' wagons had theirs replaced by LMS plates, or possibly simply lost their plates. This explains why Midland wagon numberplates turn up on the collector's market (and the Midland Railway Study Centre has a fair few) but other pre-grouping companies' plates are much rarer. Also, the Midland plates already carried the important bit of the new company's name! (Sufficient to distinguish them from LNER or Southern wagons, from a number-takers standpoint.)

 

Ballast wagons, being service stock, were not pooled, I'm fairly sure. The two ballast brake numbers are in the right range (i.e. below the total number of Midland goods brake vans). Another known ballast brake number is 816, a pre-lot list van; this number would have been reached in the second half of 1875 - the total number of goods brake vans was 765 at 30 June 1875, rising to 839 at 31 December and falling to 825 by 30 June 1876, as withdrawals of old vans exceeded building of new ones. It's possible that there was a batch of ballast brakes built with numbers in the range 816 - 840, but possibly not a continuous block as later on ballast brakes were only built in lots of 6 or 10. It doesn't follow that vans 832 and 840 in 1925 were 50 years old; they could have been later renewals.

 

The other point is that this accident occurred less than two years after the grouping, so the LMS was far from fully-integrated. 

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Midland wagons were not renumbered by the LMS, other constituents being renumbered by the addition of a round number - LNWR wagon numbers were increased by 200,000. (I don't know the numbers for other constituents - anyone?)

 

Stephen, 

 

I am quoting a fellow member in the Cumbrian Railways Association here, as I don't have the book in question, but he says The LMS Wagon (Essery and Morgan) states that the LMS allocated the numbers 285000 to 291999 inclusive for the wagons of the former Furness Railway.

 

However, it may not be as simple as this.  

 

Firstly, this listing provides 7000 numbers to the FR fleet, but we know from the statistical returns that in 1920 the FR had a total of 7796 wagons (7368 in revenue service, the rest service vehicles including loco coal wagons, ballast wagons etc.) which is a whole 10% higher than the supposed allocation by the LMS made just a couple of years later (given that these figures were submitted in 1921).

 

Secondly, the book I understand does not make any mention of the former wagons of another significant Cumbrian constituent - the Maryport and Carlisle Railway. 

 

So - I am not sure of the reliability of the figures quoted by Essery and Morgan.  At very least there appears to be some omissions.  This is another of (many) mysteries of the FR wagon fleet.

 

I am not sure this is at all helpful, really, but I guess at least saying "we don't really know for sure" is a position statement, and it might prompt someone to step forward with more information?!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

I am quoting a fellow member in the Cumbrian Railways Association here, as I don't have the book in question, but he says The LMS Wagon (Essery and Morgan) states that the LMS allocated the numbers 285000 to 291999 inclusive for the wagons of the former Furness Railway.

 

Thanks, I do have Essery and Morgan, I should have remembered that the information is there. In numerical order:

 

Midland: retained original numbers in block 1-129000

129,000 numbers for c. 123,500 vehicles 

 

L&Y: +130000 in block 130001-169999

40,000 numbers for c. 37,400 vehicles

 

G&SW: +170000 in block 170001-191999

22,000 numbers for c. 20,700 vehicles

 

North Staffs: between 192000-199999 (not preserving former numbers)

 

L&NW: +200000 in block 200001-278999

L&NW service vehicles: +279000 up to 2789999

L&NW brake vans: +280000 up to 281999

L&NW service vehicles +282000 up to 284999

85,000 numbers for c. 82,800 vehicles

 

Furness: between 285000-291999 (not preserving former numbers)

 

Highland: between 292000-299999

 

Caledonian: +300000 in block 300001-352999

Caledonian brake vans and service vehicles: +353000 up to about 356999

57,000 numbers for c. 53,300 vehicles.

 

The stock numbers are rounded from those at 31 Dec 1921, which I had to hand.

 

I suspect the Caledonian is at the end because it didn't join the LMS until 1 July 1923. Neither did the Knotty but with fewer than 10,000 wagons they could be slotted in the gap between the G&SW and L&NW blocks. This also indicates, I think, that there had been nu attempt at renumbering during the year the L&NW and L&Y were amalgamated.

 

Also from Essery & Morgan, it is apparent that new LMS construction in the first decade took unused numbers (and numbers of withdrawn wagons) in these blocks; in fact in whole range up to 399999; it was only in 1934 that new block numbering started with open wagons from 400000, covered from 500000, mineral from 600000, etc.

 

But this poses problems even apart from the Furness / M&C question. There were certainly Midland wagons carrying numbers up to 145xxx, encroaching on the L&Y block. Numberplates for such wagons survive, indicating that they retained these numbers probably into the post-war period when such things started to be collectable. 

[Penlan]

I know this isn't the right place to ask this question, but those who will probably know are regulars on this Topic.
Wizard Models 'LMSC005: LMS Wagon Leaf Springs with J Hangers (pack of 4)' which can be seen at https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/lmsc005/ What is the length of the spring?

I'm looking for some that are 4' 6" long, that's the overall length of spring only.
Yes, they are for a different (LNWR) project, and I could probably make some out of layers of Plastikard, but.......
Any help greatly appreciated, other than "Raise the 'Q' somewhere else"  

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Penlan said:

I know this isn't the right place to ask this question, but those who will probably know are regulars on this Topic.
Wizard Models 'LMSC005: LMS Wagon Leaf Springs with J Hangers (pack of 4)' which can be seen at https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/lmsc005/ What is the length of the spring?

I'm looking for some that are 4' 6" long, that's the overall length of spring only.
Yes, they are for a different (LNWR) project, and I could probably make some out of layers of Plastikard, but.......
Any help greatly appreciated, other than "Raise the 'Q' somewhere else"  

 

I think those springs should be 4'6" - measuring the drawing of a D1892 fitted open in Essery & Morgan, fig. 8 p. 34, that's the length.

[Penlan]

Many thanks Stephen, much appreciated, now ordered.
They may not look to the Nth degree correct for the application I have in mind, 

but as the vehicles are in a moving train going round the layout,

I doubt any rivet counters will be able to pull me up on a mini detail of the springs if they don't look not right - which of course is not necessarily the same as wrong 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

Sticking with the LNWR theme, I've just been at a LNWR Society Zoom talk given by Bob Williams on the research behind his father Geoff's famous models of Aylesbury. I very much enjoyed seeing Aylesbury MkII in the flesh at RailEx a few years ago and have the book Bob wrote about the research and layout. To demonstrate that even on such a meticulously-researched model, there's still new information coming to light, Bob has only recently discovered that the S.W.A. Newton collection held by Leicester Museums includes photos of Aylesbury station that cast new light on various details.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[Mikkel]

I like that wooden platform at Calvert.

 

https://imageleicestershire.org.uk/view-item?key=T3siUCI6eyJ0eXBlIjoxLCJpZHMiOlszNl19fQ&WINID=1645165368516#hLZw37uCfJEAAAF_C3899w/19941

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I like that wooden platform at Calvert.

 

Yes. Clearly an afterthought. All that modernity that went into the design of the London Extension and no-one gave thought to the practicalities of getting full milk churns onto an island platform.

[Compound2632]

And of course one doesn't have to go very far to find...

 

And at Brill - both 10A axleboxes, so post-1889 build. Wretched fox obscuring what might otherwise be a legible numberplate; the other might be 677xx. The tare of that one looks to be 5.2 whereas the slightly foxed one might be 4.18.

 

The Midland did well out of the GC London Extension.

 

Here, too, along with some Mountsorrel wagons.

 

Bricks.

 

Classic. Even in P4, I think one would struggle to get the running gear looking so spindley.

 

Some Drg. 213 3-plank dropsides (D305 if you like anachronism) in cement works traffic - bagged cement? Raw ingredients? 

 

Nuneaton Colliery wagon, in 1896 - that's useful. And here from a different angle. Dumb buffers.

 

How about this one - MS&L cupboard door mineral wagons, marked:

For STEAMER TRAFFIC

Return to GRIMSBY

 

And something for the Great Western enthusiast.

 

LNWR D4 - note curved brake lever. More LNWR here - D4, D2, D1, plus the obligatory... And here, with a Met brake van.

 

Joseph T. Firbank's wagons - a bit smarter than the contractor's tubs seen elsewhere. Firbank had the contract for the London end of the GC London Extension just as his father had had the contract for the southern end of the Midland's London Extension three decades earlier. It's a true Buddenbrooks tale of the rise and fall of a nineteenth-century family - with the aesthete novellist Ronald in the role of young Hanno.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

Stephen, I have finally been united with MRJ's 286 and 287. I look forward yo reading your artivle with interest.

 

Jamie

[Regularity]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

have the book Bob wrote about the research and layout

One of the most motivating and inspiring books in my collection!

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Stephen, I have finally been united with MRJ's 286 and 287. I look forward yo reading your artivle with interest.

 

I've just submitted Low Side Wagons Part 1 - 19th Century for the Midland Railway Society Journal; it should be in the overdue Winter 2021 issue. (I take full responsibility for the Journal having got behind - a consequence of going on holiday in August.)

[Western Star]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Bob has only recently discovered that the S.W.A. Newton collection held be Leicester Museums includes photos of Aylesbury station that cast new light on various details.

Stephen,

 

I thought that I had looked at all of the Newton images which are "on-line" (through the Railway Archives web-site).... I do not recall any for Aylesbury (LNWR).  If you can, please provide a pointer to the corresponding images.

 

thank you, Graham

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Western Star said:

Stephen,

 

I thought that I had looked at all of the Newton images which are "on-line" (through the Railway Archives web-site).... I do not recall any for Aylesbury (LNWR).  If you can, please provide a pointer to the corresponding images.

 

thank you, Graham

 

This one (might actually be the only one). The carriage experts reckoned it was nearer c. 1900 than c. 1910 on account of the flat-sided brake/milk vans being in plum and spilt milk not all-over plum.

[Western Star]

Stephen,

 

There was I epecting that you would provide a link to hundreds of photos of thousands of PO wagons in Alyesbury (LNWR) yard - together with one or two D299.

 

thank you, Graham

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Western Star said:

There was I epecting that you would provide a link to hundreds of photos of thousands of PO wagons in Alyesbury (LNWR) yard - together with one or two D299.

 

No, sorry. Bob Williams would be overjoyed with such a photo. They know who the coal merchants were around 1910 and have several good photos of coal merchants' wagons from the inter-war period. Unfortunately they're not the same firms. Bob reckoned there was a lot of churn in the coal merchant business, with firms typically being around for 20 years or so only.

 

But the photo is of great interest for the detail of the inside end of the train shed. The lack of hanging baskets and flower beds - a feature of Geoff's models - was noted. 

[Flymo749]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

And of course one doesn't have to go very far to find...

 

How about this one - MS&L cupboard door mineral wagons, marked:

For STEAMER TRAFFIC

Return to GRIMSBY

 

 

One dares to correct the master at one's peril, but...

 

Zooming in to that photo to the maximum, I believe that it says "For SLEEPER TRAFFIC".

 

Which would make more sense in terms of a photo of a construction site, and also the slight peculiarity of having some fairly scruffy wagons specifically marked for Boat traffic.  It's not clear, if it were "steamer" whether that would be of a Boat Train variety (and would therefore probably need higher speed running capability, such as piped brakes) or Tramp Steamer (in which case, probably any old open wagon would do.

 

Was the MS&L permanent way HQ located at Grimsby?  Not something that I know, but others may.

 

Cheers

Paul

(PS - long time reader, I think that this the first time I've felt I could contribute!)

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Flymo749 said:

Zooming in to that photo to the maximum, I believe that it says "For SLEEPER TRAFFIC".

 

I'll go with that; as you say it fits the context. The M&SL would of course import Baltic pine for sleepers through Grimsby. I had been thinking of coal for the fishing fleet.

 

I don't know much about MS&L / GC wagons - my only source is P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1: Southern Area (Wild Swan, 2005). From this, it seems the MS&L didn't have purpose-designed sleeper wagons but used ordinary mineral wagons of the same type as they were using for loco coal. In some cases these were drawn from the general mineral wagon fleet, others were built specifically as loco coal or sleeper. Such wagons would be accounted for as service stock rather than revenue stock, hence the need for specific branding. There is a photo, p. 120, of an apparently identical wagon, No. 7308 - five deep planks, cupboard doors with the same latch mechanism - but with cast plates rather than painted inscriptions, laid out in the same way:

 

M S & L                         7308

                            SLEEPER TRAFFIC       

                        RETURN TO GRIMSBY

 

                                LOAD 9 TONS

 

Cast number and tare weight plates on the solebar, and a cast five-pointed star.

 

Possibly, the wagon behind the head of the man with the oilcan has these plates and, curiously, like the one in Tatlow's photo, the cast MS&L and number plates look as if they're on planks that are lighter in colour than the rest - unpainted?

 

46 minutes ago, Flymo749 said:

I think that this the first time I've felt I could contribute!

 

More please!

 

I'm no master, merely a humble seeker after truth.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

....the S.W.A. Newton collection held by Leicester Museums includes photos of Aylesbury station that cast new light on various details.

And this is the collection that is the source for nearly all the photo's in that excellent book 'The Making of a Railway' (The Great Central Rly, Annesley Jnct to Marlybone) by L T C Rolt, first published in 1971 (when I bought my copy).
I like books showing lines being built 

[Penlan]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This one (might actually be the only one). The carriage experts reckoned it was nearer c. 1900 than c. 1910 on account of the flat-sided brake/milk vans being in plum and spilt milk not all-over plum.

Further, presumably the ground signal is for a loco that has brought in a train, to be then able to push the coaches out ready for the run round, rather than the guard giving the green flag etc., Just a detail.
BTW the reference to photo 'This one (might actually be the only one)' has a double page spread in Bob's book, pages 66 - 67. 
This photo (and the others from Leicester) can be enlarged a great deal, super.... 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Penlan