More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Miss Prism]

31 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

PS: "Them GWR engines all look the same":  https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p310046721/h99ca1b4#h99ca1b4 

 

"GWR Dean Goods no. 79 Chester" - err, it's not a Dean Goods, it's not even an Armstrong Goods, it's a Gooch Goods!

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

"GWR Dean Goods no. 79 Chester" - err, it's not a Dean Goods, it's not even an Armstrong Goods, it's a Gooch Goods!

 

But can you tell a Cauliflower from an SDX?

[Miss Prism]

Fair cop, guvnor...

[Compound2632]

I think we all need to calm down with a nice picture of a proper-looking 0-6-0 goods engine:

 

 

Neilson Class M No. 2705, delivered in January 1902 and seen here at Holbeck Junction during relaying work in 1903 - barely a stone's throw from its home shed. [Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 99-0764.]

 

[Regularity]

Quote

Railway Modeller has digitised all its past issues back to 1949 and made them available online to those with a current subscription. I believe that also works for people subscribing for current paper copies.

I was already a subscriber, but I managed to short-quote you: I hadn’t noticed the index.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Regularity

[Regularity]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But can you tell a Cauliflower from an SDX?

That’s easy.

Can you tell a DX from an early SDX, if you have only a LHS view and can’t see the vacuum pipes?

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Can you tell a DX from an early SDX, if you have only a LHS view and can’t see the vacuum pipes?

 

I've looked through the L&NWRS Zenfolio galleries without finding photos that I could put side-by-side: LHS, same condition - e.g. fully Webb-ised DX vs SDX, either both with sloping smokebox front or both with circular smokebox door. According to E. Talbot, An Illustrated History of LNWR Engines (OPC, 1985), the earliest SDXs weren't vacuum-fitted anyway, predating the LNWR's adoption of the vacuum brake. Some DX's were vacuum fitted. I'm stumped as to how the engine in this photo can be identified as a DX rather than an SDX: https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p1027016558/e4b9a37bf

 

At first I thought the coupling rods might be the tell-tale but Talbot has several photos of SDXs with Ramsbottom rods and in the Zenfolio gallery there are later examples of DXs with Webb rods. 

 

I give up!

[Regularity]

Unfortunately, your links take me to the class page, rather than to a specific photo, so I can’t comment directly.

 

Webb reboilerings used a boiler with a 2” smaller diameter, set at a different pitch, and with a longer firebox. This all subtly affects the relationship between the cladding and the cab windows.

 

I don’t know if these changes were applied to new builds under Webb’s tenure, though: Baxter is not much help in this regard.

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Unfortunately, your links take me to the class page, rather than to a specific photo, so I can’t comment directly.

 

Curious. This link:

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p1027016558/e4b9a37bf

 

takes me straight to a photo of a DX on a goods train at Bushey troughs. 

 

Mind you, there are some errors in the L&NWRS Zenfolio galleries - a couple of Bs have crept into the Class A gallery.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Compound2632

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But can you tell a Cauliflower from an SDX?

 

Yes. Fortunately identifying the three Ramsbottom/Webb 0-6-0s is straightforward.

 

For the uninitiated;

Coal Engine - straight running plate, no crankpin splashers.

DX/SDX  - straight running plate, crankpin splashers with "cut-outs".

Cauliflower - running plate "humped" over wheels to provide clearance for the crankpin bosses. They are also the only of the three classes to be fitted with Belpaire fireboxes by the LMS.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Yes. Fortunately identifying the three Ramsbottom/Webb 0-6-0s is straightforward.

 

But you're a LNWR afficionado. The challenge was directed at @Miss Prism, who would doubtless point out that it's just as easy to distinguish between Gooch, Armstrong, and Dean Goods.

 

How are you on @Regularity's DX/SDX challenge?

Edited January 28, 2022 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

Actually, I do remember what a Cauliflower looks like. I'm not familiar with the DX/SDX nomenclature, but useful to know they have a straight running plate. Thanks Jol.

 

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Curious. This link:

 

 

takes me straight to a photo of a DX on a goods train at Bushey troughs. 

 

Mind you, there are some errors in the L&NWRS Zenfolio galleries - a couple of Bs have crept into the Class A gallery.

Is working fine, now.

[Compound2632]

I mentioned the virtual tours of Midland Railway artefacts in the Assemblage at the Museum of Making, compiled by the Midland Railway Study Centre Coordinator, Dave Harris. These are now live and can be reached via the Study Centre homepage - scroll down and follow the links.

[watfordtmc]

Definitely not a D299 and, as I don’t know the scope of your answer to Ko-Ko, it may be outside the boundaries of your interest, but may I draw your attention to: Wingham

 

BR period however.

 

Regards

TMc

31/01/2022

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by watfordtmc
Try to make the link work

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, watfordtmc said:

BR period however.

 

Nothing wrong with that; the number is unchanged, so added to the list! With the D-shaped numberplate, it's almost certainly one built from 1913 - Lot 824, 832, 863, 866, 900, or 914 of 1916. (The Midland Railway Study Centre has a copy of Drg. 1642 - Item 88-D0886 - originally prepared for Lot 543 of 1902 but marked up in red for Lot 824, with the new style of numberplate, and also additional internal diagonal ironwork and alterations to the door runners.) All these except the last were 10 ton capacity, i.e. D363 - 900 vehicles. The 200 to Lot 914 were rated 8 tons, diagram D362; I suspect that this was down to using material on-hand under the exigencies of wartime. (The difference is in journal size. The 8 ton vans had the 8" x 3½" journals that had been standard since the 1880s, the 10 ton vans had 9" x 3¾" journals, a 20% increase in bearing surface.) The capacity, above the running number, has been scrawled over but looks to me as if it could be 10 tons, which is anyway the more likely. There are several photos in Midland Wagons of D363 vans with BR markings; survival in traffic into the 1950s seems to have been not unusual - the vans seeing their fourth decade of service.

 

The drawing also notes alterations to brakework for Lot 716 onwards, to Drg. 3190. This hasn't survived but the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Register gives it as "Independent Brake for Covered Goods Wagon" which I would interpret as a separate set of brake gear on each side (rather than only on one side, for vehicles built before 1909) - several photos in Midland Wagons show this.

 

What I haven't seen before this photo is the fitting of vacuum brake, which I presume was done in LMS days - Midland vacuum-braked wagons always had clasp brakes. This has entailed a number of modifications apart from the vacuum cylinder and pipework. The brake lever on the far side has been changed to the Morton cam - note how the lever sits higher - the push-rods on that side re-arranged and a cross-shaft fitted (mostly not visible). There is now a single V-hanger on each side, behind the solebar, rather than the pair required to support the stub shaft of the independent brake. The screw coupling is the final note of new-found dignity!

 

Ko-Ko?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[swampy]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nothing wrong with that; the number is unchanged, so added to the list! With the D-shaped numberplate, it's almost certainly one built from 1913 - Lot 824, 832, 863, 866, 900, or 914 of 1916. (The Midland Railway Study Centre has a copy of Drg. 1642 - Item 88-D0886 - originally prepared for Lot 543 of 1902 but marked up in red for Lot 824, with the new style of numberplate, and also additional internal diagonal ironwork and alterations to the door runners.) All these except the last were 10 ton capacity, i.e. D363 - 900 vehicles. The 200 to Lot 914 were rated 8 tons, diagram D362; I suspect that this was down to using material on-hand under the exigencies of wartime. (The difference is in journal size. The 8 ton vans had the 8" x 3½" journals that had been standard since the 1880s, the 10 ton vans had 9" x 3¾" journals, a 20% increase in bearing surface.) The capacity, above the running number, has been scrawled over but looks to me as if it could be 10 tons, which is anyway the more likely. There are several photos in Midland Wagons of D363 vans with BR markings; survival in traffic into the 1950s seems to have been not unusual - the vans seeing their fourth decade of service.

 

The drawing also notes alterations to brakework for Lot 716 onwards, to Drg. 3190. This hasn't survived but the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Register gives it as "Independent Brake for Covered Goods Wagon" which I would interpret as a separate set of brake gear on each side (rather than only on one side, for vehicles built before 1909) - several photos in Midland Wagons show this.

 

What I haven't seen before this photo is the fitting of vacuum brake, which I presume was done in LMS days - Midland vacuum-braked wagons always had clasp brakes. This has entailed a number of modifications apart from the vacuum cylinder and pipework. The brake lever on the far side has been changed to the Morton cam - not how the lever sits higher - the push-rods on that side re-arranged and a cross-shaft fitted (mostly not visible). There is now a single V-hanger on each side, behind the solebar, rather than the pair required to support the stub shaft of the independent brake. The screw coupling is the final note of new-found dignity!

 

Ko-Ko?

Here's another one 26705 for your list, if you haven't already seen it. 

 

Assuming (!) the lighter paint on the solebar was behind a removed oblong numberplate, this may be pre-1913, with strengthening ironwork on the ends ( 7281 doesn't have this), vac brake gear removed, and double vee hangers on each side, so perhaps the  "Independent Brake for Covered Goods Wagon" mentioned above. So built between 1909 and 1913?

 

What livery would these be in by that date, apart from dirty. LMS/BR Bauxite or grey? They look to have been repainted since the war.

 

Please beg to differ.

 

Pete

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, swampy said:

Here's another one 26705 for your list, if you haven't already seen it. 

 

Excellent, thank you!

 

8 minutes ago, swampy said:

Assuming (!) the lighter paint on the solebar was behind a removed oblong numberplate, this may be pre-1913, with strengthening ironwork on the ends ( 7281 doesn't have this), vac brake gear removed, and double vee hangers on each side, so perhaps the  "Independent Brake for Covered Goods Wagon" mentioned above. So built between 1909 and 1913?

 

I strongly suspect that this wagon was only ever fitted with the vacuum through pipe and the arrangement of independent both-side brake is either original or else a second set of brake gear was added at some point before 1939 - the date at which the LMS had finally to meet the BoT's 1911 requirement for a brake operable from either side! The diagram D363 lists nominal tare weights for vans without pipes, 5-17-2; with vacuum through pipe, 5-19-0, and with vacuum and Westinghouse through pipe, 6-0-0. (Ditto D362 but around 4-5 cwt lighter in each case.) There's no information on quantities. The only thing I have on that is from the Dec 1905 Valuation of Stock [MRSC Item 77-11822] which gives the following figures:

• AVB complete: 858
• AVB through pipe: 972
• Westinghouse through pipe: 42

out of a total wagon stock of nearly 128,000. (Presumably the 42 wagons with Westinghouse through pipe also had AVB through pipe.) I think the numbers were probably a bit higher by 1922, but not by much.

 

The strengthening ironwork on the ends is a late modification, also seen on several other vans, including ones that have survived to this day, through being sold as internal users at dockyards etc. I think this may well be such, in colliery use, since the numberplate has been removed - or it may just have been snaffled. Likewise the five-fingered plates at the base of the \I/ framing. The supports for the door runner may well be original; they're shown on Drg. 4427 [MRSC Item 88-D1803] for the vans of Lot 938 with differently-arranged framing - Midland Wagons Plates 194 and 195 - note the end strengthening plates in Plate 195, photo taken in 1964, and also Plate 196. These door runner supports are seen in all the LMS and BR period photos. 

 

The copy of Drg. 1642 marked up for Lot 824, mentioned above, is drawn with the short brake lever but the lever is endorsed in red, 3127, which the Register tells us is "Hand Lever for 12 Ton Coal Wagon" from 1909; the cupboard-door loco coal wagons of D204, built in 1909, seem to be the first 12 ton wagons given long levers. So I think the long lever seen here implies a van built no earlier than 1909 - It's annoying that the capacity isn't visible since the lots built 1909-10 were all 8 ton vans to D362. On the other hand, the long lever might be a later modification...

 

47 minutes ago, swampy said:

What livery would these be in by that date, apart from dirty. LMS/BR Bauxite or grey? They look to have been repainted since the war.

 

There is one photo in Midland Wagons showing D362 in LMS bauxite livery, with a paint date of 30 Jan 1939 [Plate 188] along with one of a D360 van [Plate 186]. Plate 192 shows D363 No. 31919 with BR lettering and a paint date of 2 Nov 1949 (I think) - is it LMS bauxite or BR grey? When was the grey livery adopted? I do wonder what proportion of these vans got LMS bauxite, introduced in 1936? The other BR period photos, like this one, give the impression of various degrees of unpaintedness! The one that @watfordtmc linked to "ought" to be bauxite, since it's fitted. Were piped vehicles supposed to get BR bauxite? Yours has screw couplings, I note.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, swampy said:

Here's another one 26705 for your list, if you haven't already seen it. 

 

I meant to mention that I already had 26709 as a covered goods wagon, from a record of wagons received at Uttoxeter in July 1914 - it was recorded as "Somers Town Van" - a regular, possibly daily, working. 

[swampy]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I meant to mention that I already had 26709 as a covered goods wagon, from a record of wagons received at Uttoxeter in July 1914 - it was recorded as "Somers Town Van" - a regular, possibly daily, working. 

...I strongly suspect that this wagon was only ever fitted with the vacuum through pipe...

 

Thanks for "differing", I forgot about the through pipe option.

 

There are some more MR wagons in the Transport Archive" . Here is an extract from my rough notes on wagons contained therein, with terms to search for in order to find them...

 

MR van 26705 1959 through pipe removed, either side brake
mr cct 37381 1955
mr cct 37360 1952 2 photos
mr van M7281 vacbrake in 1950
mr open m62495 search "51241"
lms 40t brake M284725 under ref "CW10258"
mr open not D299? m 97766 in 1955. search 50655
MR 6wheel ballast brake DM646
MR van M26491 as tool van. search under "95027"
MR 5 plank 122000. grease box. D299 search for "2155"
LMS/MR brake, no ducket, M688 search 58148
MR 5 plank 88981. Grease box. D299. search for "1603"
MR fruit milk van M38473 in 1951

 

HTH

Pete

 

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, swampy said:

MR 5 plank 122000. grease box. D299 search for "2155"
MR 5 plank 88981. Grease box. D299. search for "1603"

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=70666

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=70660

 

Yes, Ellis 10A axleboxes, so 1890s (to c. 1902) build. There is of course the possibility, since we only see half the wagon, that No. 122000 could be the end-door version D351, but not 88981. Why? Because we're looking at the brake side of 122000 and the non-brake side of 88981, and on D351 the brake handle was at the end door end.

 

5 hours ago, swampy said:

mr open m62495 search "51241"
mr open not D299? m 97766 in 1955. search 50655

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=77594

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=76994

 

Both 10 ton wagons to D302 or D663A, 13,250 built 1913-1923. The numberplate on 62495 has just a central M - is this a replacement plate, or have the L and S been filed off? Was this a wagon built in 1923, i.e. straight to LMS stock?

 

5 hours ago, swampy said:

MR van M26491 as tool van. search under "95027"

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=179516

 

Pre-1913 style numberplate so probably an 8 ton van to D362. The bogie carriage, with the characteristic tapering of the brake end, is ex-L&Y but the 6-wheeler is beyond my knowledge - the caption says ex-LNER so as it's evidently not ex-GN and with such deep waist panels I think not ex-GE; definitely not ex-NE or ex-NB so I suppose by elimination ex-GC, or probably more properly ex-MS&L?

 

5 hours ago, swampy said:

MR 6wheel ballast brake DM646

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=179266

 

Compare Midland Wagons Plate 385, DM 291 - the same type, on a later style underframe D393 6-wheel brake with self-contained  buffers, Lot 815 of 1912 onwards. There's no record of these in the Midland Lot List but in the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Regisiter there is Drg. 5112 of March 1920 "Conversion of Overseas Brake Vans into 10 Ton Ballast Brakes" [MRSC Item 88-D1211, not seen by me]; there is however no explicit reference to brake vans built for overseas (i.e. for the WD). Alternatively, these could be LMS period conversions.

 

5 hours ago, swampy said:

mr cct 37381 1955
mr cct 37360 1952 2 photos

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=87906

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=86822

 

D833 ventilated van for carrying motor cars, 52 built in 1914, Drg. 4215, Lot 893. Midland Wagons lists 27 numbers not including these but also gives a full set of numbers from a 1928 renumbering, again not including these. Confusing!

 

I've not (yet) looked up the others but I was taken with this, at Toton in 1952:

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=86797

 

A 29 ft composite of 1875 converted into a mess van c. 1898-1902 and a D529 25 ft passenger brake van converted to ambulance van.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...but the 6-wheeler is beyond my knowledge - the caption says ex-LNER so as it's evidently not ex-GN and with such deep waist panels I think not ex-GE; definitely not ex-NE or ex-NB so I suppose by elimination ex-GC, or probably more properly ex-MS&L?

 

Definitely early GER. The long commode handles are a give away. 

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, billbedford said:

Definitely early GER. The long commode handles are a give away. 

 

Thanks - I'm out on a limb when it comes to LNER constituent stock. The very deep waist panelling had me stumped but I see it is a good match for the 1897 saloon in the Stately Trains fleet at Embsay: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=832, That saloon also displays the long commode handles, though the top corners of the windows are rounded rather than square on the departmental carriage.

[Annie]

The commode handles are a dead giveaway for it being a GER six wheeler just like this one.  Don't know who that LNER lot are who painted their initials on the side are though.  Must be some minor railway.

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Annie said:

Don't know who that LNER lot are who painted their initials on the side are though.  Must be some minor railway.

 

In my case, usually a typo for LNWR - the two keys being adjacent on the keyboard and my typing usually containing sufficient wrong notes to need careful checking before posting and often post-posting editing.

 

But seriously, the style of that lavatory third is a dead ringer for the departmental ex-brake third. The underframe has the same arrangement of swing links for the springs for the outer axles and J-hangers for the middle axle. The cuboid axleboxes seem distinctive too. The point of difference seems to be that the lav third has a wooden underframe (or at least headstocks) whereas the brake third has a steel underframe - from the features mentioned, an original GE one, not a more modern substitute.