More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

With the tender build I forgot to say that a hole was drilled into the brass base plate so wires could go through for a decoder, speaker, stay-alive if there was not enough room in the boiler/smokebox. Also the tender top is still lose should I need to fit said decoder etc.

 

All a bit too sophisticated for me - I make my own chuffing noises, in the privacy of the garage!

But I'm always reluctant to build a trapped volume so a hole somewhere is, I think, a good idea.

 

I think on this one I will want to build the running chassis first, in case the hornguides in the outside frame castings need easing.

[Rowsley17D]

I've gone for Markits' wheels and keyed outside cranked axles and the outside hornguides do need easing.

[Compound2632]

On 22/02/2022 at 12:51, Compound2632 said:

 

Let us suppose that the photo was taken to record the new kilns - so, 1901. That puts it before the mass-production of D362 (more or less, lot 503 for 1,734 wagons is dated January 1901 - how long after the lot date wagons started to emerge and how long it took to complete a lot is an interesting question) and D357 (lot 562 of 1903).

 

I have contacted the owner of the site asking if he has a print or higher-resolution scan or can point me to the source of the image.

 

I've had a reply, with a jpeg scan of the site author's source for the Sundon cement works photo. It's from a book illustration; the photograph had been half-tone screened for printing, so although the image size is much greater than the web version, the resolution is not much better. Nevertheless, the D357 van on the left is 51733 or perhaps 39 and does certainly have the earlier arrangement of brake shaft support. I'm no more confident of the D362's number but 114328 is possible - but that 4 could be a 6 or an 8 and the 3 could be a 2. What is clear is that we're looking at the non-brake side; likewise for the D357 to its right.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Compound2632

[John-Miles]

Many years ago I built a K;s Kirtley 0-6-0 in EM. At the time I had a straight test track and it ran perfectly on that but everytime it had to negotiate a bend the wheels shorted on the outside frames. There wasn't enough room for insulating tape and at the time I didn't know about painting the frames with glue so I put it in a drawer. It's still there. You should be ok in 00.

[Penlan]

2 hours ago, John-Miles said:

....... so I put it in a drawer. It's still there. You should be ok in 00.

If I recall John, that drawer is very crowded, and it's a very BIG drawer too.. 

[Compound2632]

Some wagons, for a change:

 

I've been writing up low side wagons for the Midland Railway Society Journal and was about to take a group photo to illustrate available models, when I realised a problem with the brake gear on the early versions, with two plank ends to Drg. 10, built c. 1874-1877, and with three plank ends to Drg. 213, built 1877-1887:

 

 

These wagons had underframes with the buffing springs mounted amidships, between the middle bearers, with a central transom between the springs (unlike later wagons, from the first D299s onwards, that had continuous drawbar with buffing springs behind the headstocks). Consequently, the brake shaft was supported not by V-hangers mounted on the front and back of the solebar but by a V-hanger on the front of the solebar and a strut mounted on the transom, behind the tumbler (as discussed a few posts back in relation to covered goods wagons).

 

So I've carefully cut away the rear V-hanger and stuck in a bit of bent brass strip to represent the vertical strut:

 

 

The Drg. 10 wagon, with its wooden brake blocks, should have a long brake lever, so this was made up from a 51L etch. The Drg 213 wagon (the one upside-down in the photo) has the cast-iron brake blocks and short lever that came in with lot 66 in 1881, as far as I can work out. The wagons to lots 6, 23, and 54 had wooden brake blocks and long brake lever like the earlier Drg. 10 wagons.

 

For speed, all these added parts have been chemically blackened rather than painted.

 

[Compound2632]

I meant to say, imaginary brake shafts still. They ought to have gone in when the models were built; too fragile now.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I meant to say, imaginary brake shafts still. They ought to have gone in when the models were built; too fragile now.

Yet another chance to use what we had and then lost...  please accept a "groan" which is made with support and appreciation for what you achieve.

 

best wishes, Graham

[Compound2632]

On 20/02/2022 at 00:16, Compound2632 said:

And just to show it's not all D299s on the London Extension contracts, here's a string of short timber trucks, D388. The number can be read on the nearest one, 17979. The "type" photo, Midland Wagons Plate 167, shows No. 18080 of lot 107. But I don't think that should be taken as indicating block numbering of the lot. Rather, both these wagons are renewals of wagons built around 1870, when the company's wagon stock reached that quantity. The Gloucester RC&W Co.-built wagon, Plate 168, numbered 12206, would have been the first wagon to carry that number, which would put its build date at 1866. In the range 17945-18198, I know 19 wagon numbers, all but one of which are timber trucks or rail wagons of one sort or another - but many are of 20th-century construction. This suggests to me that as for cattle wagons, there were some blocks of "hereditary" timber truck numbers - back in 1870, a batch of timber trucks was built or bought and numbered in a block, then over time these wagons were renewed by wagons of the same type (by and large). Again as with cattle wagons, the quantity of timber trucks the Midland had did not vary significantly after the early 1880s. For timber trucks, other blocks are around 12125-12298 and 26982-27458.

 

I've spent a jolly morning at The National Archives, filling in the gaps in my transcription of the Returns of Working Stock from the Midland's half-yearly Reports and Accounts. (Unlike TNA, the Midland Railway Study Centre does not have a complete set; there are gaps throughout the 1860-1890 period.) This is a mine of information for the articles I'm writing for the Midland Railway Society Journal. But just looking again at timber truck numbering, there was an increase in stock in the second half of 1870 from 910 to 1,175. Over that period, the total wagon stock went from 17,869 to 18,629 - an increase of 760 vehicles. So those 265 timber trucks that were additions to stock would carry numbers in that range. This ties in with my observed range of numbers 17945-18198 - a range of 253. 

 

Looking at the first half of 1874, timber trucks increased from 1,556 to 1,711 while total wagon stock increased from 26,654 to 27,471 - 155 additional timber trucks out of 817 additional wagons, but agreeing with my observed 26982-27458 number range - a range of 476 so clearly not a continuous block. 

 

The breakdown of wagons by type starts in the first half of 1868, at the start of which period the total wagon stock was 14,725, so there's not enough information to pin down my 12125-12298 range except to note that the wagon stock stood at 12,247 at 30 June 1866.

[Compound2632]

I've been sent some links to some LMS-period photos - 16 April 1926 - from SSPL via Getty Images, so probably LMS officials - thanks to my correspondent who prefers to remain anonymous. The location within Liverpool Docks isn't identified but judging by the number of wagon turntables I'm guessing ex-LNWR - though an ex-L&Y Pug puts in an appearance. [All embedded links; the SSPL reference number is in the bottom LH corner of each image.]

 

 

Midland D299 on the right, number not quite legible but seems to begin with a 5. 10A axleboxes and no vertical end washer plate, so mid-to-late 1890s build. Behind it, a Scottish mineral wagon - perhaps the Caledonian one that appears later - curious to see such a thing so far south. Apart from the LB&SC round-ended wagon, the rest have me stumped.

 

 

It's the antique appearance of the wagon turntables and infilling sets that really make me think this is an ex-LNWR location - one has the feeling it was already nearly a century old when the photo was taken. I think that's an ex-LNWR D90 18 ft 10 ton coal wagon on the right; an elderly Caledonian wagon towards the back (with LMS chalked up on the top plank) and behind it a Midland cattle wagon, D296, of the type built up to 1905. Is that a GWR O2 on the left, or was there a later diagram with similarly high sides? I think the shallow 2-plank steel-framed wagon seen end on may be the Caledonian pig iron wagon seen in the next photo. Looming in the background on the right, a tank wagon, and in front of it a steel-framed open - no idea, though with the number 1132 on the filler of the tanker, I presume its a PO. Behind the Pug is a freshly-painted wagon; if that's an R it must be a Southern wagon.

 

 This seems to be taken from the opposite direction, after a bit of shunting. The D90 and CR pig iron wagon are still there. I think that is the same D299 as seen in the first photo - note the replacement end plank - now revealed as 8158? (bother). Looking back at the first photo, the last digit might be a 0 or a 3. No idea about the wagon in the gloom behind the pig iron wagon but the one to the left is probably an ex-MR D663A with steel end stanchions - the top and bottom planks are wider than the others, which is a tell-tale. My correspondent points out that this photo has previously been discussed on RMWeb:

 

A PO wagon on a coal tipper - I can't quite make out the script writing on its end though the top line ends Colly Co Ltd. Also just not legible is the plate above the large one proclaiming Capstan No. 3 - is that LNWR or L&YR?

 

Finally, re. a discussion (on the S&DJR goods traffic thread I think) about the size of imported timber, here's some being unloaded at Salford docks having been imported from Canada, March 1940. [Embedded link from a Manchester Ship Canal album on Flickr - easy to lose yourself there.]

 

 

From the right: ex-Midland D302 or D663A No. 64275 in 1936 livery; ex-LNWR D84; D302 or D663A in pre-1936 livery; and three timber trucks that are part of the Ship Canal's wagon fleet. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Compound2632
Clarify that the location is Liverpool.

[sir douglas]

i'm not sure but i recall seeing some of these photos before, particularly the one with the chap working a capstan. IIRC they were in a set of photos of the NLR's Poplar docks on some online archive website

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

i'm not sure but i recall seeing some of these photos before, particularly the one with the chap working a capstan. IIRC they were in a set of photos of the NLR's Poplar docks on some online archive website

 

Well SSPL and Getty think Liverpool! Plus the L&Y Pug... 

 

There's plenty of pictures of capstan shunting around. Here's an ex-Midland D362 or D363:

 

 

[No product endorsement intended - rather the opposite. Whilst cigarette card collecting is a valid hobby, smoking is deprecated as a way to get them.]

[Compound2632]

My photo-spotting correspondent has turned up this. (Alamy, so won't embed.) I interpret this 1935 photo as a D299 sold out of service to the Peterborough Wagon Co. Ltd. and hired by them to T.E. Jones & Co, Coal Exchange, London E.C. 3. It's infringing the MoT rules since it's still only got brakes on one side and I can't imagine the Peterborough Wagon Co's fleet was big enough to qualify for the 1939 deadline for both side brakes that the grouping companies had! There were some sales of D299 and D305 wagons to various minor railways in decade before the Great War, and also to the Ministry of Munitions for internal use in weapons factories, along with a sale or possibly hire to the SE&CR, I've not previously been aware of wagons being disposed this way in the inter-war period. The sales to the minor railways were through wagon firms acting as brokers or agents, as far as I can work out.

 

The only information in C. Sambrook, British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2018 (Lightmoor Press, 2019) on the Peterborough Wagon Co. is its winding-up in 1951. Peterbourough, at the junction of the LNWR and Midland with the Great Eastern, was quite a centre of the wagon trade, with Thos. Moy and Thos. Coote, later Coote & Warren, having their works there.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

From the right: ex-Midland D302 or D663A No. 64275 in 1936 livery; ex-LNWR D84; D302 or D663A in pre-1936 livery; and three timber trucks that are part of the Ship Canal's wagon fleet. 

 

Rubbish. The man doesn't know what he's talking about. Square-ended headstocks, oil axleboxes - it's an LMS standard open. My correspondent says D1895, an early one, on account of the shape of the knee washer plate, and probably 10 ft wheelbase. (Not entirely sure I'm with him on that point - D1666?)

 

The Liverpool Docks photos have been the subject of a previous discussion:

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

That cupboard door wagon looks like a Caly d.46. There's a drawing of it in Mike Williams' book. 

[65179]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Rubbish. The man doesn't know what he's talking about. Square-ended headstocks, oil axleboxes - it's an LMS standard open. My correspondent says D1895, an early one, on account of the shape of the knee washer plate, and probably 10 ft wheelbase. (Not entirely sure I'm with him on that point - D1666?)

 

From what I can see in ...LMS Wagons Vol.1 it has to be a D1666 because of the lack of the barrow plank (and that it does look like it's 9ft wb).  Even early D1895s appear to have this feature.

Simon

[Adam]

8 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

From what I can see in ...LMS Wagons Vol.1 it has to be a D1666 because of the lack of the barrow plank (and that it does look like it's 9ft wb).  Even early D1895s appear to have this feature.

Simon

 

I'd agree with that. Statistically that's far more likely, because there were a mere 1,200 1895s (Essery has caused a bit of confusion on the 'later' 1895s - in fact 1896 - which were really quite different in constructional details - and the two lots differed from one another - there were 1,800 of those). There were 55,000 dia. 1666 built from 1923 onwards and that's certainly what you're looking at. They're truly ubiquitous and there's no good excuse for not having a couple at least on any layout set after about 1930. 

 

Adam

 

NB - in case you're wondering about the differences: the dia. 1896 had angle iron external knees instead of the forged outside knees of the dia. 1666 and dia. 1895. The lot 1118 wagons reverted to having curb rails which did not appear on the earlier lot 809 of D.1896 but the ironwork was the same for both lots and quite different to the D.1895 wagons. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Adam

[Compound2632]

Forged inside knees, I think you mean. Proper 19th century wagons have their knees modestly out of sight (except for the very young - one and two-plankers and the like). It's only really once one gets into the roaring twenties that high-sided wagons start to flaunt their knees. It's a trend that started on the Great Western - yet another example of how that seemingly sedate and conservative company threw off the shackles of Victorian prudery. Taper boilers and top-feed, my dears, quite shocking! At least the Great Western didn't commit the ultimate indecency of outside valve gear.

 

Oh dear I'd better get myself into a better frame of mind before going out to church. I must turn my mind to higher things:

 

 

[DY 6646: 115 Class 4-2-2 No. 127 posed in Chee Dale with new clerestory stock for London Manchester or Bradford expresses, c. 1899. Compressed download of scan of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64446.]

 

But yes, the LMS D1666 open is very much the successor to (and indeed replacement for) the MR D299 open. Even more ubiquitous, given wagon pooling and that it was a purely merchandise wagon, unlike D299, a high proportion of which were in mineral traffic.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Forged inside knees, I think you mean.

 

Further proof the silly fellow doesn't know what he's talking about. The Midland Railway Study Centre copy of Drg. 5612 for 12 ton opens to D1666 [MRSC Item 88-D2113] clearly shows outside knees bolted to the outside face of the solebar: 

 

 

I should stick to pre-grouping modesty and leave the grouping-era experts to flaunt their exposed body parts.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Compound2632

[Adam]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Further proof the silly fellow doesn't know what he's talking about. The Midland Railway Study Centre copy of Drg. 5612 for 12 ton opens to D1666 [MRSC Item 88-D2113] clearly shows outside knees bolted to the outside face of the solebar: 

 

 

I should stick to pre-grouping modesty and leave the grouping-era experts to flaunt their exposed body parts.

 

It's a foreign country (in some ways) after 1923! It gets more foreign still after the Second World War... And thank you for that excerpt from the drawing. The internal chamfer forming the barrow plank is not something I knew about. A bit late for the pair of 1666 I have on the go, but the *next one* will be right in consequence.

 

Adam

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Adam said:

And thank you for that excerpt from the drawing.

 

Follow the link for the full drawing.

[phil_sutters]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Forged inside knees, I think you mean. Proper 19th century wagons have their knees modestly out of sight (except for the very young - one and two-plankers and the like). It's only really once one gets into the roaring twenties that high-sided wagons start to flaunt their knees. It's a trend that started on the Great Western - yet another example of how that seemingly sedate and conservative company threw off the shackles of Victorian prudery. Taper boilers and top-feed, my dears, quite shocking! At least the Great Western didn't commit the ultimate indecency of outside valve gear.

 

Oh dear I'd better get myself into a better frame of mind before going out to church. I must turn my mind to higher things:

 

 

[DY 6646: 115 Class 4-2-2 No. 127 posed in Chee Dale with new clerestory stock for London Manchester or Bradford expresses, c. 1899. Compressed download of scan of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64446.]

 

But yes, the LMS D1666 open is very much the successor to (and indeed replacement for) the MR D299 open. Even more ubiquitous, given wagon pooling and that it was a purely merchandise wagon, unlike D299, a high proportion of which were in mineral traffic.

I thought that you might feel your Sunday observance should be rewarded with a better view of the creation of one of your other gods.

However you may need to repent for damning all outside valve gear.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

I thought that you might feel your Sunday observance should be rewarded with a better view of the creation of one of your other gods.

 

I'm slightly fogged as to why you reposted the image of No. 127 in Chee Dale - if you follow my link you get the ultra-high-res scan on which you can actually read the numbers of the first few carriages.

 

It's one of a series showing off the new clerestory carriages. The other trains featured are the new corridor sets of M&GSW Joint Stock (though with the slightly earlier dining carriages that remained in use) and M&NB Joint stock (including the through carriages for Aberdeen). I only have access to thumbnails of these; high-res scans can be obtained from the Kidderminster Railway Museum, which is the repository for the bulk of the Midland Railway Study Centre photographic collection:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC Item 64393.]

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC Item 64394.]

 

3 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

However you may need to repent for damning all outside valve gear.

 

Indeed; though i would say the culmination of the Derby LDO's work in the Deeley tradition was this:

 

 

 

 

[Scan from C.J. Allen, Steel Highway ( Longmans Green & Co., 1928); embedded link to Wikimedia Commons.]

 

Said to be absolutely superb locomotives, unsurpassed by later taper-boiler variants, except perhaps the 3-cylinder engines for the Tilbury section.

[Andy Hayter]

Stephen

What link is that - to the Midland train?  I cannot find one.

[phil_sutters]

5 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Stephen

What link is that - to the Midland train?  I cannot find one.

All I get from clicking on either of the two photos, is the same photo in the middle of a black page, which does not enlarge when the 'enlarge' button is clicked. I only posted the other version of the single as the original looked a bit pale.