More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[MarcD]

56 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Tatlow Vol. 3

 

Harking back to a discussion upthread about pig iron, I note that Tatlow states that the use of wagons specifically designed and designated for pig iron was confined to the Central Belt of Scotland, i.e. the North British and Caledonian Railways.

 

 

 

The G&SWR also had Pig iron wagons with very strange axle box springs.

Marc

[Asterix2012]

On 26/12/2022 at 14:55, MarcD said:

I have few photos of them. A few in Yorkshire as you would expect but two in Barmouth Junction. All 5planks with steel under frames.

Marc

@MarcD do you do the EWYUR wagon in 4mm?

 

I had a look at your website but seems only to have in 7mm.

[MarcD]

It's currently only available in 7mm as it is a wagon with a etched brass underframe. I am working on a printed underframe and if it works it will make a lot of my wagons that are currently only available 7mm in all other scales.

So watch this space.

Marc

[John-Miles]

Sandy, AKA Penlan alluded to an N&B van peeking out from behind a loco. I have been through the N&B images I possess and have come up with the following - IMHO it could be a brake van as well as a van. Also another 3 planker is included. The second photo is once again Cadoxton yard (now a Lidl), no idea about the location of the first. Quite a few South Wales railways bought second hand GWR saddle tanks and of course the GWR got them all back in 1922.

 

 

[MarcD]

I would say it looks like a brake van but which company is a big question as there isn't enough visible to make a call.

Marc

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, MarcD said:

I would say it looks like a brake van but which company is a big question as there isn't enough visible to make a call.

 

If on the B&M, hard to see what it would be other than B&M?

[Penlan]

John Miles, I did mention the lettering style, Times New Roman, which was visible on the van, I doubt it's faded on the 1:1 scale photo 🃏
This is a van I started some 45+ years ago, based on the photo, note cross bracing in the panels, never got round to finishing it, the other side is bare...... 
I see I have a paint date of 1/80 on the solebar - date I lettered it.
Things like the panel on the bottom RH side panel were evident in the photo.
Before anybody asks if I still have the sketches etc., there have been a number of domestic upheavals since that time, much paperwork has been lost.
The basic model van body is one of the Ian Kirk's Mink's.
The colour on the model is probably a darker chocolate than seen here.
.
 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Penlan

[Miss Prism]

John - is there any identity information on those two saddle tanks? The first one looks like a Buffalo, but its tank is non-Buffalo. The second looks like a 2721 class.

 

[corneliuslundie]

The N&B acquired four locomotives second-hand from the GWR, all 0-6-0ST:

N&B No 14 was GWR wn 756 of 1878, GWR number 1563

N&B No 15 was GWR wn 784 of 1879, GWR number 1591

N&B No 16 was GWR wn 1255 of 1891, GWR number 1715

N&B No 13 later 3 was wn 1209 of 1890, GWR number 1882.

That makes the first two "Buffalo" class and the second two 1854 class.

The B&M also had two locos from the GWR:

B&M No 32 was GWR wn 1078 of 1886, GWR number 1685

B&M No 33 was GWR wn 1086 of 1887, GWR number 1693

so both 1661 class

(RCTS volumes 5 and 10

Not sure which company's locos the photos show so have given both options

Jonathan

[Mikkel]

13 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Not sure which company's locos the photos show so have given both options

 

The first photo is N&B No. 14 (the photo is inverted), which as Jonathan says was GWR Buffalo tank No. 1563. It was sold to the NB&R in 1911 and returned to the GWR upon grouping.

 

The second photo is N&B No. 3, which must then be ex-GWR 1854 ST No. 1882. 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Mikkel
Inverted not mirrored, a Danishm :-)

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

The first photo is N&B No. 14 (the photo is mirrored), which as Jonathan says was GWR Buffalo tank No. 1563. It was sold to the NB&R in 1911 and returned to the GWR upon grouping.

 

 

I don't suppose that helps with the van at all? It evidently has double doors but looking at the position of the visible wheel, the doorway is offset to the right of the centre-line. Suppose a 16 ft van with a 5 ft doorway, 10 ft wheelbase and 3 ft springs. If the doorway was central, its RH edge would be about 1 ft inboard of the inner spring shoe but it looks to be directly above. 

[Compound2632]

According to the Railway Returns for 1920, at the end of that year the Neath & Brecon possessed 85 open merchandise wagons of 8 to 12 tons capacity, 11 covered goods wagons ditto, 8 cattle trucks, 10 timber trucks, 6 goods brake vans, and 13 service vehicles (ballast wagons &c.). At 133 vehicles, that's a substantial increase on the 38 wagons of all kinds reported for 31 December 1902, and 48 ten years later. 

 

I can't give the statistics for the Brecon & Merthyr, since I've only got copies of the pages of the Returns on which the Midland appears!

[Miss Prism]

Thanks. The two pics are further proof that saddle tanks of a particular class could be wearing tanks of different widths and shapes. (i.e. not wot is said on the official drawings).

 

[corneliuslundie]

As I said earlier, the highest number for an N&B goods vehicle I have identified at the Grouping is 185, but there are a lot of gaps in the last, as it only covers wagons withdrawn between 1922 and about 1927 and the list has only 75 vehicles including some GBVs. Of those in the list the following are vans:

12-15, 18, 53-58. That is 11 though I suspect that 16 and 17 may also have been vans originally.

My list also has just 4 timber and 6 cattle wagons, but again missing numbers in the sequences suggest that some had gone by then.

The WRRC may have transcriptions by Harold Morgan from the GWR registers which will be much more complete.

Jonathan

[Northroader]

If it’s any help, here’s a longhand copy of the register of N&B wagons handed over to the GWR at grouping:

[John-Miles]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

According to the Railway Returns for 1920, at the end of that year the Neath & Brecon possessed 85 open merchandise wagons of 8 to 12 tons capacity, 11 covered goods wagons ditto, 8 cattle trucks, 10 timber trucks, 6 goods brake vans, and 13 service vehicles (ballast wagons &c.). At 133 vehicles, that's a substantial increase on the 38 wagons of all kinds reported for 31 December 1902, and 48 ten years later. 

 

I can't give the statistics for the Brecon & Merthyr, since I've only got copies of the pages of the Returns on which the Midland appears!

The N&B's main traffic was from the Dulais (pronouced dill - ice) valley (Neath to Onllywyn) but it also serviced the collieries on the line from Colbren to Ynysygeinon because delays on the Swansea Vale were holding up production at these collieries. The Dulais valley traffic in particular, expanded in the late Victorian and Edwardian period, hence the N&B started buying new locos and the railway started to make money - at last!! As is well know, The Midland operated most of the traffic between Ynysygeinon and Brecon and the revenue from this had been what enabled the N&B to keep its head about water financially.

[corneliuslundie]

That’s great as it is the same information as I was referring to which Harold Morgan may have extracted. It is very useful as the South Wales registers mentioned below do not usually give the GWR number allocated/applied. However, there were other registers which have extra information and sometimes don’t quite agree with the “official” Swindon version, especially over dates. The really useful ones are the South Wales registers. And what the Swindon lists do not note is wagons which had further used after being condemned as “worn out”. In the case of the N&B this was

No 25 Made Llanelly Docks 201522, broken up 8 Dec 1925

No 29 Made Cardiff Docks 201079, broken up 23 July 1927

No 43 Made Cardiff Docks 200765, broken up 1 July 1927

No 45 Made Cardiff Docks 200781, condemnation date after 1927

No 106 Made Cardiff Docks 200793, broken up 20 March 1926

No 126 Made Cardiff Docks 200986, broken up 14 May 1927

No 135 Made Cardiff Docks 200792, broken up 18 Sept 1926

No 138 Made Cardiff Docks 200987, broken up 30 July 1927

No 154 Made Cardiff Docks 201028, broken up 25 December 1926

No 165 Made Docks 200725, broken up 20 March 1926

No 171 Made Cardiff Docks 200985, broken up 18 Sept 1926

No 173 Made Cardiff Docks 200984, broken up 17 October 1925

More useless information to muddle everyone’s modelling, especially as Docks wagons will very rarely be modelled as docks are just too big to make viable layouts (Burry Port perhaps).

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

While we're on the subject, and demonstrating @John_Miles's remark about the company's increased prosperity from the 1890s onwards, I've made a table of Neath & Brecon rolling stock from the Railway Returns. I've done every other year from 1872 to 1912 apart from some gaps, notably the later 1880s; prior to 1872 the N&B stock is listed as "all hired"; from 1913 onwards the reporting format changed, plus there was no detailed reporting during the period of REC control:

 

 

 

The 1913 return gives 15 tank engines; 27 carriages seating 1,340; 6 other coaching vehicles; 41 open wagons of 8 tons and above; 14 covered wagons ditto; 4 cattle trucks; 16 others; 12 service vehicles; and 5 goods and parcels road vehicles. However, the reporting requirements had changed to include the reporting of duplicate as well as capital stock, so the apparent increase in the number of carriages and wagons may not imply the acquisition of new stock.

 

I dare say members of the WRRC have gone over this ground for all the Welsh companies much more thoroughly than I have here. 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

Is the a book on the subject. This discussion is starting things moving in my head.

Marc

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Is the a book on the subject. This discussion is starting things moving in my head.

 

A quick search turns up Gwyn Briwnant Jones, Denis Dunstone, Tudor Watkin, The Neath and Brecon Railway: A History (Gwasg Gomer, 2005): "A fully illustrated volume tracing the history of the Neath and Brecon Railway from construction to demise, 1861-1964, together with information about stations and engines, disasters and colourful personalities connected with the railway. "

https://www.gwales.com/bibliographic/?isbn=9781843234524&tsid=2.

 

Reasonably priced at AbeBooks (unlike Amazon):

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781843234524/Neath-Brecon-Railway-History-Gwyn-1843234521/plp

Edited December 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

I saw the book on Amazon and it got mixed reviews. Does anyone recommend it?

Marc

[Compound2632]

Well, Tudor Watkins is a co-author with @John_Miles on the excellent Swansea Vale book. 

 

If it's the only book on the subject, it's Hobson's choice!

[corneliuslundie]

I have it in front of me. The only index reference to wagons is to a page with the two photos we saw earlier in this thread. Nothing in the text at all.

A whole chapter on locos of course.

As a general history it is pretty good but for those interested in the minutiae of rolling stock not a lot of good, though there are seven index entries for carriages.

It appears that the first rolling stock was bought or hired from the Metropolitan Railway Carriage Co including 20 open goods trucks. Some information is given of the second-hand carriages bought (and a photo of the one which ended up on the Bishops Castle Railway which I need to build some time for the club layout). But other references are pretty general or about the saloon used by Mme Patti.

Jonathan

[MarcD]

Would they be the ex Hull and Barnsley or LSWR coaches?

Marc

[Northroader]

The source you quote is interesting, Jonathan. In the late sixties I joined the Cardiff divisional office on the loco maintenance side, and Eric Mountford was on the outdoor machinery side of things. He was a Swindonite who had moved down to Caerphilly works, and after that was closed he come into the divisional office. Very deeply into South Wales railway history, producing several books. I enjoyed his hospitality, and made him a static model of a TVR railcar. In his house there was an amazing collection of documentation he’d saved from Caerphilly, which would have gone into the bonfire otherwise. One book was the register which I did a longhand copy of, pre photocopier days, and I fancy Harold Morgan must have had access to it as well. After his untimely death from a heart attack, Frankie his wife had a swarm of collectors descend, and his collection went off all over the place.

one thing that tickles me is that the GWR didn’t think much of its newly acquired fleet, if you look at the cond. dates.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Northroader