More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[TurboSnail]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Way back in the first lockdown I had a couple of @TurboSnail's 3D printed Brighton Open As; he was also showing a South Eastern goods break van, of the type that was assigned D1553 by the Southern, for which I had quite a hankering. These and others are now available from @BlueLightning's Oak Hill Works so I thought I'd order the break, as an experiment.

 

No wheels, though the solebars are cyano'd in place. I drilled out the axleboxes as deep as I dared at 2 mm diameter and then with a 3 mm diameter rebate, so that MJT waisted bearings were sunk will in, but I still had axleguard splay. The bearings were too deep in to be winkled out again, so it's going to be MJT inside bearing units...

 

I'm happy with this so far, apart from the bearing issue being a bit awkward - though not having the wheels trapped in place may well be an advantage when it comes to rebuilding the lower footboards. I'm still, though, of the view that 3D printing is at its best as part of a multimedia kit, with etched brass for components that need to be thinner and/or less brittle. But I can understand why a cottage manufacturer will prefer a single medium. 

 

Well that seems to have sparked some debate!

 

This model was one of my earliest designs, more for myself than for commercial purposes so it was a tad rough around the edges. Unfortunately a major PC crash last year means I am now unable to edit it, though I managed to recover the print files. The reason I made the solebars and w-irons separate from the body was so there was some adjustment for people using different kinds of axles, so maybe I overthought that a bit.

 

Looking forward to seeing how you get on with it!

[Andy Vincent]

5 hours ago, drduncan said:

The Anycubic M3 max (approx £900) gives a build plate big enough to print 70 footers in one piece

One of the challenges with current large format printers is that the resolution drops as the size grows. The Max is 46 microns which is pretty typical for large printers. In contrast, the aforementioned Saturn is 28 microns. Now resolution isnt everything - and laser printers are different again - but smaller printers are setting expectations around quality that might be difficult to match on coaches. That said, coaches often have less surface detail . . . .

[billbedford]

27 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

That said, coaches often have less surface detail . . . .

 

.... yes, but they have a subtle vertical curve on the turn-under. 

[drduncan]

47 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Yes please. 😆

They are a way down my own to-do list. 

Yes but you’re 2mm so build volume is a fraction of the problem faced by us 4mm types… I mean, I could print 2mm Dreadnoughts on my printer (probably) …. But I’m not going to design them while I have so much Broad Gauge to sort out!

[Andy Vincent]

9 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

.... yes, but they have a subtle vertical curve on the turn-under. 

That is also a function of the layer height if you print flat on the bed. The practical minimum layer height is around 30 microns based on the distance UV light travels through resin. There are a couple of resins that manage to reduce this distance so you could maybe go to 20 or 25 micron layer height - but I agree with your point that XY resolution plays a very big part in how even the curve looks

[Schooner]

5 hours ago, 41516 said:

But that's the bit I like!

Hahaha then more power to your elbow!

 

Me too, mostly...but I'm afraid cleaning these guys up

has bested me, for now at least. You'd be amazed what jobs I've got done when the other option is '...or tackle another strake'!

[Andy Vincent]

43 minutes ago, Schooner said:

but I'm afraid cleaning these guys up

What prototype is that? Presumably the upper bit is a divider, maybe?

[Schooner]

1st and 3rd from the top

https://www.5and9models.co.uk/wagons.html

 

They'll make up as nicely as the rest of the (expanding) range from @5&9Models I'm sure, but do benefit from a little patient TLC beforehand.

[Compound2632]

Another Wednesday trip to The National Archives; another disrupted journey home owing to a bus striking a bridge between Vauxhall and Waterloo. Having arrived at Richmond in comfortable time for the 16:36, it was just a question of hanging around until the 17:06 turned up at 17:20. 

 

I've been looking at minute books of the Committee of Management, which ran things from soon after the 1844 amalgamation to the Fall of Hudson in 1849, and the Traffic Committee, which was one of the committees established by John Ellis as he sought to bring the company out of that mess. 

 

On numerous occasions in 1850-1852, the General Manager, Joseph Sanders, complained to the Committee of the traffic being lost owing to shortage of wagons; the Committee was, however, very grudging in recommending to the Board the purchase of additional stock. Various half-measures were introduced, such as allowing coke wagons to be used for goods traffic when returning north, rather than empty. Eventually, the District Managers were asked to put their heads together and come up with some suggestions. I thought the outcome was very interesting, and might be especially so to a career railwayman such as @The Stationmaster; it seems to me (as a non-railwayman) to be the origin of the system that was in use up to the adoption of TOPS:

 

MR Traffic Committee minute 2731 of 8 February 1853

 

Wagons

                              Read the following Report from the District Managers to the Traffic Committee

Gentlemen

                              We have considered the Wagon question you referred to us and have to submit the following recommendations for your consideration

1. That a daily return be sent to each district Manager from his Stations shewing the quantity of Wagons In, Out, and Standing there distinguishing Loaded from Empty so that each Manager may be regularly informed of what Wagons are in his district and where they are.
2. That the district Managers send to the General manager a daily slip shewing above information for each station so that he may see if a deficiency in one district can be supplied out of any other or whether the want is a general one.
3. That the Accountant have returns of the wagon nos. in and out of each station and that he keep a demurrage account for them charging the stations with any detained more than one clear day and that he send his account of same to district Managers same as Foreign for enquiry, and debit to parties in fault, where necessary.
4. That the Company decline to furnish Wagons for any Traffic except Coals which does not yield a minimum rate of 2/- per Ton, or if for any reason this is not considered desirable at present to enforce, that some instruction should be given to the district Managers on this Head, as a large number of Wagons are now employed on short and low class traffic.
5. We have had other regulations under consideration but the above are all we recommend for adoption in the first instance, and should we in practice find that more is needed, we will report to the General Manager for his notice and consideration.

Signed Thos Walklake – William Cobby – Joseph Hackett – Jno. Ashworth – Jno. B. Wilkinson.

              

               The General Manager requested that Clause 4 might not be in operation until each District Manager had enabled him to lay before the Committee a list of exceptions thereto.

               Ordered that with the exception of Clause 4 the report be adopted. 

[corneliuslundie]

Interesting. How would clause 4 fit with the common carrier status?

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

How would clause 4 fit with the common carrier status?

 

That's possibly why the General Manager wanted it kicked into the long grass.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I thought I'd better post a couple of snaps of progress on the break van footboards while they're going reasonably well and before it all goes pear-shaped:

 

 

A first attempt at bending up individual Z-shaped brackets from 0.45 mm brass wire, gluing them to the footboard, then offering the assembly up to be glued to the underside of the solebar, was unsuccessful - it was not possible the get the brackets sufficiently well-aligned with one another. 

 

So I filed slots in the underside of the solebars, using a 0.6 mm drill bit as the tool. (This generated some swarf in the form of small fibres, which I really didn't like the look of and took pains to remove from the work surface using a dampened piece of kitchen towel, rather than blowing.) Lengths of wire were glued in the slots, across the full width of the van. Once the glue had set, these were bent down and a bit inwards, to form a figure 7 shape. With the two brackets that are in front of the axleguards, I couldn't get the flat-nosed pliers in close enough to bend back far enough, so I did have to snip the wire amidships and draw it out far enough to complete the bend - as can be seen in the photo. 

 

I then made the final bend in each bracket, looking along the side to get all four in a line, which worked, though there is a noticable slope:

 

 

The footboard is 0.020" x 0.100" (0.5 mm x 2.5 mm) Evergreen strip, with a backboard of 0.010" x 0.040" (0.25 mm x 01.0 mm) strip. Notches are cut in the backboard to accommodate the brackets and there is a cut-out to clear the axlebox.

 

If I was doing this again, I would try drilling holes in the solebar rather than filing grooves, to give an even firmer anchorage for the wire - as noted above, the solebars are over-deep, thanks to the remains of the upper footboards I removed, so there is sufficient material for this without the brackets ending up too high.

 

I'm thinking how to correct the slope...

 

And of course the plan is to snip out the wire between the solebars, to make way for the wheels!

[Schooner]

Bravo! 

 

Would it be possible to bend up one side before fitting? This would, I think, allow them to be marked/scored and bent accurately for the 'primary side' (although I appreciate your wagons are of a higher calibre than mine and don't have such a thing!), with no loss to the secondary side which would be bent up in situ as above.

 

Altogether the van is looking very up together. As ever, I envy your sharp corners. Not a hair's gap or overlap.

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Would it be possible to bend up one side before fitting?

 

Yes, that would have been a good idea, had I thought of it...

 

At least the first bend, giving the 7 - the second bend, for the Z, I think is better done in situ to get the uniform height. (Notwithstanding the slope I've ended up with.)

 

11 minutes ago, Schooner said:

the 'primary side'

 

There always is! Down to luck whether it's the first side done or the second, though.

 

12 minutes ago, Schooner said:

As ever, I envy your sharp corners. Not a hair's gap or overlap.

 

I can take no credit there, as the body is a one-piece print. Sharpness of corners is down to @TurboSnail's CAD and @BlueLightning's printing.

[corneliuslundie]

I had the same problem the other day with the step supports for a GWR Fruit Van - an old white metal kit I have just got around to completing. I just made a rather larger batch of Z shaped pieces of wire than I needed and chose the best matching pairs. I don't think the footboards are quite the same each side but at least they are reasonably level. A bit wasteful of wire but I got there. And there is so much plumbing under the vehicle anyway - Dean-Churchward Mk 3 vacuum fitted. Some of that had to be sacrificed to allow for the Spratt & Winkle couplings.

Jonathan

[richbrummitt]

I use a handrail bending jig to get hangers the same length. If the holes they are subsequently inserted into are drilled in line and parallel to a datum then the footboards should be parallel to the rails/ground when added. 

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

I use a handrail bending jig to get hangers the same length. If the holes they are subsequently inserted into are drilled in line and parallel to a datum then the footboards should be parallel to the rails/ground when added. 

 

A very sensible approach!

 

The second side has come out leveller:

 

 

I made the interesting discovery that Slaters Microstrip and Evergreen strip will bond to the 3D print using d-limonene. It may be that the bond is just to the grey primer paint... Will wait and see how firmly attached the upper footboards are; they're Evergreen 0.020" x 0.080" (0.5 mm x 2.0 mm) strip. 

 

Still thinking how to do the external brake linkage with its bevel gears!

 

I've also been tinkering with the Drg. 213 lowside wagon - trying to fix the rounded tops of the molded end pillars, by gutting them short and grafting in a bit of Evergreen section.

[Ian Smith]

Given that the two ends of the wire need to be facing in opposite directions, a jig could be made toward the end of a hinge - drill a hole the relevant distance from one edge of the hinge, insert piece of wire with a 90 degree bend in hole then close the hinge, finally form the other bend against the edge of the hinge.  Obviously if necessary tweak the bends to whatever angle is required.  In theory all of the Z shaped bits of wire will all be the same though.

Ian

[Compound2632]

Traffic Committee minute 2685 of 1 February 1853 records the General Manager, Joseph Sanders, reporting:

                            "That the Master of the Horse has assented to pay the sum of £235.3.9 being the cost of erecting a temporary station for the use of Her Majesty at Camp Hill on the return of the Royal party from Scotland in October last."

 

At this date, it seems, the Master of the Horse, though he had declined from his ancient grandeur as a member of the Cabinet, was still responsible for the organisation of Royal journeys. In October 1852, this position was held by George Child Villiers, 5th Earl of Jersey. He had been Lord Chaimberlain in the Iron Duke's first ministry and then in Peel's first ministry and came back in as Master of the Horse in Peel's second ministry. (I'm not sure whether that was a promotion or demotion but he was evidently on very good terms with Peel, whose daughter married his heir and namesake.) He was out of course in Lord John Russell's long Whig ministry but came back with Lord Derby in March 1852 - the Who? Who? ministry, so named as the aged and increasingly deaf Iron Duke kept exclaiming as the list of cabinet nonentities was read out. Jersey must have been one of the oldest - an octogenarian by the time of the Royal visit to Scotland. Lord Derby's ministry failed the following December, being succeeded by Lord Aberdeen's coalition of Peelite Tories and Whigs. Aberdeen's appointee as Master of the Horse was Arthur Richard Wellesley, 2nd Duke of Wellington (the Iron Duke having died the previous September), who took up office on 21 January 1853, a week before his 46th birthday.

 

Can we deduce from this minute that the Earl of Jersey had not been at all on top of the job, perhaps due to his age, but the Duke of Wellington had inherited his father's efficiency and organisational abilities, his earliest action as Master of the Horse being to settle outstanding invoices?

 

High Victorian politics was so much more interesting than that of our own day!   

[wagonman]

5 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

I use a handrail bending jig 

 

As produced by our very own Mr Bedford if memory serves me right – it often doesn't these days!

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, wagonman said:

As produced by our very own Mr Bedford if memory serves me right – it often doesn't these days!

 

In that part of his range - the etched brass part - that used to be marketed by Eileen's.

 

But I am reminded that the Mousa Kirtley brake van kit came with a printed resin handrail jig bespoke for the handrails on that vehicle, that I had been drilling extra holes in as required. Not so useful for Z-shaped pieces, though.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Not so useful for Z-shaped pieces, though.

 

Yes and no Stephen.  Actually as the jig that Richard and I were thinking off is simply a thicker piece of brass with a load of holes etched in it, at one scale inch increments away from the edges, through which you bend the wire, with a groove and notch on the side for the second bend, it is really up to your "skill and judgement" (as they used to say on competitions on cereal packets) what angle you put in.   It is very easy not to produce a right angle (don't ask me how I know this..) and certainly it would be possible to use this jig to create the sort of Z you have on your break van.

 

Having a second jig made up of strips of say styrene stuck on a flat surface would be a way of ensuring you had a uniform angle in each Z.  But I would start with the Bill Bedford jig to get it there or there abouts. 

 

Bill did post recently that moves were afoot for a new supplier to stock the parts that previously were at Eileen's so fingers crosssed they will come available again.

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Bill did post recently that moves were afoot for a new supplier to stock the parts that previously were at Eileen's so fingers crosssed they will come available again.

 

That's good news that I had missed.

[richbrummitt]

I’ve see them for sale on Wizard models stand at shows. They might have been Bill’s.  The one I have is half the size (being a 2mm modeller) and from a different source. Occasionally I need a long handrail and I drill a piece of etch surround to suit a specific size. 
 

No need to judge the length though: I bend as per a handrail and then hold each bent end in pliers (including the bend) and twist until the ends are 180 degrees from each other. 

[Compound2632]

Thank you all for your sound and sensible advice on handrail and bracket bending. With a bit of tweaking, I've manage to improve the footboard on the first side:

 

 

The next bit of metal bending will be for the lampirons... (Putting off that brake rigging!)

 

There are some very sticky-out ones on the corners at the guard's door end. I presume these were so that the sidelamps would be visible to the enginemen looking back. an oddity is that the photo on the back of the dustjacket of Southern Wagons Vol. 3 of No. 8935, a Gloucester-built break of 1898, has these on both sides, the photo of No. 1880, built at Ashford in 1896, doesn't have the bracket on the side nearest in the photo above, only the metal strap to which it is attached.

 

I suppose I should do something about wheels at some point, too.