More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Buhar]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If I am going to make this a standard feature of my models, I'll want to find an easier way of making the bracket - perhaps some suitable plastic section.

That touches on a significant issue with wagon modelling in particular (because you need a lot of them). Detail needs to be consistent across your fleet and with safety loops, horse hooks, brake cross rodding, bottom door release catches, chains, stops and so on, it soon mounts up to significant time.

 

Alan

[Annie]

 

Tickets please 😁

 

I bet if you modelled that at a model railway exhibition there would be all manner of know-it-alls who would tell you that you'd got it wrong.

[Annie]

6 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Part of the Special Train notice for a Kerry Sheep Fair attached. Not sure of the year as it was sent to me by a friend, but obviously September.

This is the Welsh Kerry of course, not the Irish one.

Jonathan

Kerry sheep sales timetable_20180808_0001.pdf 857.92 kB · 9 downloads

An interesting note for one of the trains for a 3rd class coach to be provided for the accommodation of the men in charge of the stock.

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

 

Tickets please 😁

 

I bet if you modelled that at a model railway exhibition there would be all manner of know-it-alls who would tell you that you'd got it wrong.

 

At Broome (LNW) they would assemble portable hurdle fences in the goods yard, herd hundreds of sheep by road from the surrounding area into them and then onto the trains.

 

Plenty of room here. 

 

Wikipedia commons.

 

I thought this Great War era view of requisitioned horses about to be loaded would also be of interest also.

 

Shropshire Star.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, MrWolf said:

I thought this Great War era view of requisitioned horses about to be loaded would also be of interest also.

 

Apart from all the other features of interest, note the LNWR D88 van with its bottom flap door hanging open but main cupboard doors shut.

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

An interesting note for one of the trains for a 3rd class coach to be provided for the accommodation of the men in charge of the stock.

That was quite regular.  There was an accident in the peak district where a cattle dealers saloon was damaged at the rear of a cattle train.an old 6 wheeler coach. I have one on the rear of my empty cattle train that's heading to Heysham through Lancaster. 

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

There were no passenger services on the Kerry branch by this time, I suspect, anyway. So any transport for the cattle dealers would have had to be by a goods train.

Jonathan

[MrWolf]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Apart from all the other features of interest, note the LNWR D88 van with its bottom flap door hanging open but main cupboard doors shut.

 

Thanks, I spotted that too and was rather hoping that you would know what it was 

[MrWolf]

41 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

That was quite regular.  There was an accident in the peak district where a cattle dealers saloon was damaged at the rear of a cattle train.an old 6 wheeler coach. I have one on the rear of my empty cattle train that's heading to Heysham through Lancaster. 

 

Jamie

 

In the early days, the drovers rode in the open hurdle sided wagons with the sheep. Unsurprisingly there were a number of fatalities.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

In the early days, the drovers rode in the open hurdle sided wagons with the sheep. Unsurprisingly there were a number of fatalities.

 

   

 

It could get lively.

 

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Tickets please 😁

 

I bet if you modelled that at a model railway exhibition there would be all manner of know-it-alls who would tell you that you'd got it wrong.

 

..but did the sheep know not to cross the yellow line?

[Compound2632]

15 hours ago, Buhar said:

That touches on a significant issue with wagon modelling in particular (because you need a lot of them). Detail needs to be consistent across your fleet and with safety loops, horse hooks, brake cross rodding, bottom door release catches, chains, stops and so on, it soon mounts up to significant time.

 

Ideally, some enterprising manufacturer of lost wax brass or 3D printed components would be selling them by the dozen.

[sharris]

On 08/09/2023 at 09:17, Worsdell forever said:

 

Also rabbits…

Wouldn’t they have gone by hopper?

 

sorry! I’ll get my coat.

[Asterix2012]

23 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Given the detail of listing of animals, I wonder whether Others would include ponies, mules and donkeys and possibly other draught animals.  If you add in the farm moves where the whole farm would be transported - animals and all and not necessarily split by species - I think you might begin to understand where the number comes from.

 

As already pointed out, chicken farming was on a miniscule scale compared with today.  Rabbits might be more likely at this time but even here it would need a lot of cages - that could easily be conveyed in passenger traffic - to fill even one wagon.  Geese for Xmas (a la Sankt Martin for Germany) might just have demanded a few wagons, but (like the Polish geese) I have seen accounts of ducks and geese being herded long distances over the course of a week or more.  (Norfolk to London is one example I remember.)

 

I was surprised that the number of horses was so small since this was the standard means of transport within local areas - but then given the omnipresence of horses, the need to transport one a long distance by rail would be limited to rare occasions.  

Horses suffer from stress when transported long distances, the LNER changed to a policy of sourcing them from local sales to minimise stress which led to illness.

 

Might partially explain why there was not a lot of long distance transport 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Asterix2012 said:

Horses suffer from stress when transported long distances, the LNER changed to a policy of sourcing them from local sales to minimise stress which led to illness.

 

Might partially explain why there was not a lot of long distance transport 

 

I would imagine that there were more horse journeys by horsebox, at passenger rates, than by cattle wagon, at goods rates. The Midland had around 400 horseboxes. I don't know what their utilisation was but lets suppose each one was used a minimum of twice a week on average, that's 40,000 horse journeys (conservatively assuming single occupancy) or at least three times the number of journeys by cattle wagon. 

[jamie92208]

The army certainly transported a lot of horses.  As far as I know genera cavalry and draught animals travelled in groups presumably in cattle wagons. Officers chargers had their own horse boxes.  There was the famous wagons used by the French army labelled 8 horses or 40 men. 

 

Jamie

[MrWolf]

I can't remember exactly what the wagons were, but military horses were also transported in high sides open wagons with rails around the top, similar to a coke wagon.

[corneliuslundie]

I wonder if some of the higher class traffic before the First World War would be the horses of families going on holiday in a Saloon, with the brougham or whatever on a flat wagon behind the horsebox. Though I have never seen a photo of such a train.

But that Saloon traffic disappeared after the First World War.

But that would not be goods traffic.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I wonder if some of the higher class traffic before the First World War would be the horses of families going on holiday in a Saloon, with the brougham or whatever on a flat wagon behind the horsebox. Though I have never seen a photo of such a train.

But that Saloon traffic disappeared after the First World War.

 

G. Waite & L. Knighton, Rowsley, a Rural Railway Centre (Midland Railway Society, 2003) p. 65 reproduces the counterfoil of a ticket for Horses, Carriages, Luggage &c. issued on 22 December 1883 from Rowsley to Cark via Carnforth, for the Duke of Devonshire going from Chatsworth to Holker Hall for Christmas: 4 Private Carriages at 50s each, 4 Covered Carriage Trucks at 10s each, 19 Horses at 33s each, and 3 Dogs at 2/6 each, total £43 14s 6d.

[WFPettigrew]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

G. Waite & L. Knighton, Rowsley, a Rural Railway Centre (Midland Railway Society, 2003) p. 65 reproduces the counterfoil of a ticket for Horses, Carriages, Luggage &c. issued on 22 December 1883 from Rowsley to Cark via Carnforth, for the Duke of Devonshire going from Chatsworth to Holker Hall for Christmas: 4 Private Carriages at 50s each, 4 Covered Carriage Trucks at 10s each, 19 Horses at 33s each, and 3 Dogs at 2/6 each, total £43 14s 6d.

 

I remember you posting about this previously, but that time you didn't give the cost.  For that little lot alone, you'd be set back £4,383.50 at today's prices (according to the Bank of England inflation calculator having rounded the starting price up to £44).  

 

But of course there would also be the first class tickets for the Duke and quite possibly his (by then) two surviving sons and one daugther plus spouses and children and any other close family also making the journey, and the hire of the saloon coach for their personal use.  And the third class tickets for the staff who would be making the journey too, plus probably one or more carriages for their use so that they would arrive at the same time as the Duke's party.  

 

Going home for Christmas was not a cheap affair!

 

Thankfully by my era of interest, 1913-14 the 9th Duke, Victor Cavendish was forced to be a permanent resident at Chatsworth by the machinations of the 8th Duke to manage death duties, even though he, like the 7th Duke much preferred Holker Hall in Cumbria to the pile in the Peak District and would have preferred to stay put in the house he lived in when his uncle was Duke.  Victor's loss was his brother Richard's gain - he become the new Lord Cavendish at Holker.  The Devonshire estate was significantly smaller by this time.  The 7th Duke had invested heavily in Barrow-in-Furness and the slate quarry at Kirkby-in-Furness, without always expecting and certainly without always getting a return on that investment: he might have been loaded but he was also very generous for example keeping production going at the slate quarry during a national slump, just to ensure the men still got a wage - source Burlington Blue Grey R Stanley Geddes (James Milner Barrow). 

 

On succeeding the title, the 8th Duke had to do some significant rationalisation and selling off to bring the books back into line amid chuntering about overly generous forebears, and by Victor's time there was more tightening of the waistband.   So while I anticipate that the brothers might want to visit each other from time to time, and in my universe would travel through Cartmel to do so*, I am thinking one saloon, a 3rd, a horsebox or just possibly two and a carriage truck should more than do it!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

* if I ever get round to actually building the darned thing...

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

I remember you posting about this previously, but that time you didn't give the cost.  For that little lot alone, you'd be set back £4,383.50 at today's prices (according to the Bank of England inflation calculator having rounded the starting price up to £44).  

 

But of course there would also be the first class tickets for the Duke and quite possibly his (by then) two surviving sons and one daugther plus spouses and children and any other close family also making the journey, and the hire of the saloon coach for their personal use.  And the third class tickets for the staff who would be making the journey too, plus probably one or more carriages for their use so that they would arrive at the same time as the Duke's party.  

 

Going home for Christmas was not a cheap affair!

 

Yes, and you've reminded me of something: the charge of 50s per private carriage is for road vehicles travelling on carriage trucks (not for private railway carriages for the party) and the charge of 10s is for upgrading from an open to a covered carriage truck.

[WFPettigrew]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

the charge of 50s per private carriage is for road vehicles travelling on carriage trucks (not for private railway carriages for the party) and the charge of 10s is for upgrading from an open to a covered carriage truck.

 

Whereas the cost per horse includes boxes in which to carry them.... 

 

I wonder what the cost would have been to hire the special saloon(s) for the family and the 3rd(s) for the staff, as well as their tickets to ride?

 

 

[Buhar]

If you hired a saloon is it certain you also had to buy tickets for the travellers? Was it not an all inclusive hire price?

Alan

[WFPettigrew]

18 minutes ago, Buhar said:

If you hired a saloon is it certain you also had to buy tickets for the travellers?

 

No idea to be honest - but it strikes me that the railway company would want to know how many passengers it is carrying, for its returns, and that there would have to be some sort of excess over and above the basic first (or third) class fare, as these first/third tickets would be costed for travelling on an ordinary service.   But how this was all costed out, I don't know - which in part was why I was asking how much it cost... 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

If you hired a saloon is it certain you also had to buy tickets for the travellers? Was it not an all inclusive hire price?

 

40 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

No idea to be honest - but it strikes me that the railway company would want to know how many passengers it is carrying, for its returns, and that there would have to be some sort of excess over and above the basic first (or third) class fare, as these first/third tickets would be costed for travelling on an ordinary service.   But how this was all costed out, I don't know - which in part was why I was asking how much it cost... 

 

To hire a saloon, one had to pay the fares for the number of passengers travelling but with a minimum of four first class fares.