More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[WFPettigrew]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

To hire a saloon, one had to pay the fares for the number of passengers travelling but with a minimum of four first class fares.

 

Thanks Stephen.  And was the hire of the saloon a further expense over and above the passenger fares?

 

All the best

 

Neil

 

PS the Furness Railway had 3rd class saloons as well as first class for hire - hence my "first/third" comment earlier, but they might have been unusual in this provision?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

Thanks Stephen.  And was the hire of the saloon a further expense over and above the passenger fares?

 

All the best

 

Neil

 

PS the Furness Railway had 3rd class saloons as well as first class for hire - hence my "first/third" comment earlier, but they might have been unusual in this provision?

 

No, as far as I'm aware, that minimum of four first class fares got you your saloon - ordered in advance of course. The Midland also had third class party or picnic saloons, for which the minimum fare was three third class fares. From the July, August, and September 1903 Time Tables (Ian Allan reprint, 1969, I think), p. xvii:

 

SALOON, FAMILY, AND INVALID CARRIAGES

 

Carriages as above (with Lavatory and other conveniences) can usually be provided on prior application, the minimum charges being four full first class and four full third class ordinary or tourist tickets, or fares equivalent thereto. Each passenger travelling must hold a ticket corresponding with the class of carriage used, and if the party in any case exceeds the number named above, an additional fare must be paid for each additional passenger.

 

As far as I'm aware, there was no difference in that four fare threshold whether one had a bogie saloon or a six-wheeler. But what isn't entirely clear to me is what class of ticket one's servants had to have, given that family and invalid carriages included a servant's compartment fitted out to third-class standard.

[Compound2632]

Of course, one could hire a special:

 

SPECIAL TRAINS may be hired at the principal stations at a few hours' notice. The charge is 5s per mile for a single, and 7s 6d for a double journey, in addition to the first or third class fares, which must be paid for each passenger. Minimum charge, £3 (exclusive of fares).

 

Op. cit. - oddly, under GENERAL REGULATIONS.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

The Cambrian had four First Class and one Third Class Saloon, plus the ex Duke of Sutherland's Saloon which was bought  from him and presumably became First Class. There were also a private Saloon which operated on the line, belonging to Earl Vane. (chairman for about 25 years). The GWR had a lot of Saloons. The Diagrams were prefixed G and there were at least 20 Diagrams.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

The GWR had a lot of Saloons. The Diagrams were prefixed G and there were at least 20 Diagrams.

 

Three here:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-arrival-of-train-load-of-visitors-at-henley-station-1899-online

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But what isn't entirely clear to me is what class of ticket one's servants had to have, given that family and invalid carriages included a servant's compartment fitted out to third-class standard.

Maybe that's the answer?  Servants in the third class compartment had to have third class tickets.  And if they ventured into the first, to serve in whatever shape or form, then it would be clear what their role was given that they would be wearing markedly different dress than the upper classes travelling first?  Or, dare I suggest, the (working class) railway servant who might be inspecting tickets would be expected to take the word of the wealthy patrons, such were the deferences in those days?

[Compound2632]

Clayton's bogie family carriages of 1879:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-P1/45, DY3082.] 

 

Note the big saloon windows breaking into the line of the eves panels, in a similar manner to those of the Great Western saloons seen in the Henley film - a common history, perhaps, Clayton having come from the Great Western?

 

The interior was high Victorian gentlemen's club:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-P1/75, DY3081.] 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I wonder if some of the higher class traffic before the First World War would be the horses of families going on holiday in a Saloon, with the brougham or whatever on a flat wagon behind the horsebox. Though I have never seen a photo of such a train.

But that Saloon traffic disappeared after the First World War.

But that would not be goods traffic.

Jonathan

IIRC there is a famous accident report after a collision on the Highland Main line on the run up to the Glorious 12th.from what I can re e ber there were over 40 vehicles in the train of which only 2 were Highland stock.  The others were a very varied colliection of vehicles including family saloons and horse boxes. 

 

Just as aside the Cavendish's also owned Bolton Abbey and used to travel there for the grouse shooting

Jamie

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

IIRC there is a famous accident report after a collision on the Highland Main line on the run up to the Glorious 12th.from what I can re e ber there were over 40 vehicles in the train of which only 2 were Highland stock.  The others were a very varied colliection of vehicles including family saloons and horse boxes. 

 

Not an accident, I think, but reported by E.L. Ahrons as the composition of the Tourist Express on leaving Perth. I'll look it up.

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

PS the Furness Railway had 3rd class saloons as well as first class for hire - hence my "first/third" comment earlier, but they might have been unusual in this provision?

 

I believe the number of third-class saloons correlated to the number of popular football clubs there were in the company's territory. 

[wagonman]

On 08/09/2023 at 15:44, Andy Hayter said:

 

As already pointed out, chicken farming was on a miniscule scale compared with today.  Rabbits might be more likely at this time but even here it would need a lot of cages - that could easily be conveyed in passenger traffic - to fill even one wagon.  Geese for Xmas (a la Sankt Martin for Germany) might just have demanded a few wagons, but (like the Polish geese) I have seen accounts of ducks and geese being herded long distances over the course of a week or more.  (Norfolk to London is one example I remember.)

 

 

Rabbits were much more likely to be deadstock than live. The was a steady traffic in (dead) rabbits from the warrens of Breckland to London via the GER.

 

Turkeys and geese, on the other hand, walked to market – often up to 100 miles. This tradition dated back to at least the C17 and lasted into the 1930s.

 

 

 

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

IIRC there is a famous accident report after a collision on the Highland Main line on the run up to the Glorious 12th.from what I can re e ber there were over 40 vehicles in the train of which only 2 were Highland stock.  The others were a very varied colliection of vehicles including family saloons and horse boxes. 

 

Just as aside the Cavendish's also owned Bolton Abbey and used to travel there for the grouse shooting

Jamie

 

Perhaps the accident you are thinking of was the high speed derailment at Wigan in August 1873. The train fits the description and consisted of 25 LNW and Caledonian coaches and family saloons hauled by two locomotives. 

[Mikkel]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course, one could hire a special:

 

SPECIAL TRAINS may be hired at the principal stations at a few hours' notice. The charge is 5s per mile for a single, and 7s 6d for a double journey, in addition to the first or third class fares, which must be paid for each passenger. Minimum charge, £3 (exclusive of fares).

 

Op. cit. - oddly, under GENERAL REGULATIONS.

 

"At a few hours' notice." That's impressive. So I request a special train 3 hours before, and what happens then? How is this arranged and operated at such short notice?

 

[WFPettigrew]

8 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

I believe the number of third-class saloons correlated to the number of popular football clubs there were in the company's territory. 

 

Possibly, on bigger lines. Maybe the Furness is the exception to the rule, with only lowly Barrow AFC from 1901 in is patch - however the company was at the forefront of developing mass tourism into the Lake District, so arguably had other uses for saloons...?

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

"At a few hours' notice." That's impressive. So I request a special train 3 hours before, and what happens then? How is this arranged and operated at such short notice?

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-2014-0083, DY6321.]

 

No. 1665 - one of the batch of ten engines fitted with Joy valve gear -* with a 29 ft 4-wheel first of 1875 and a D529 25 ft 4-wheel passenger brake van - from one of the later batches with 8 ft radius arc roof rather than the 10 ft radius of the first.

 

All one needs for a special train. At the principal stations, there would be one or maybe two passenger engines working as station pilot and ready to take over a scheduled train in the event of an engine failure. There would also be some spare passenger carriages nocking around, for strengthening purposes. There might even be a family saloon or similar on hand, if one was lucky.

 

I've repeated before the story I had out of the Bulletin on the Alpine Garden Society about Reginald Farrer, pioneer of rock gardening, returning home to Ingleton from a plant-hunting expedition in the Far East. He got as far as Skipton but had missed the last train on to Ingleton. He ordered a special, which was ready in well under three hours. It no doubt helped that his uncle was a director of the Midland. 

 

*No it's not. it's the penultimate of the thirty engines of the 1562 Class. The Joy gear engines were the 1667 Class, Nos. 1667-1676, the only engines built during Johnson's tenure as Locomotive Superintendent to be withdrawn before his retirement, being replaced by ten engines of the 150 Class.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Compound2632
Loco class identity corrected

[BMS]

Sticking my neck out a long way, relying on eyesight and memory:

It is MWC and I believe its a Cambrian Rlwy Van.

Unfortunately and undefendably I can't find my kit in the stash.

Will come back if I do.

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-2014-0083, DY6321.]

 

No. 1665 - one of the batch of ten engines fitted with Joy valve gear - with a 29 ft 4-wheel first of 1875 and a D529 25 ft 4-wheel passenger brake van - from one of the later batches with 8 ft radius arc roof rather than the 10 ft radius of the first.

 

All one needs for a special train. At the principal stations, there would be one or maybe two passenger engines working as station pilot and ready to take over a scheduled train in the event of an engine failure. There would also be some spare passenger carriages nocking around, for strengthening purposes. There might even be a family saloon or similar on hand, if one was lucky.

 

I've repeated before the story I had out of the Bulletin on the Alpine Garden Society about Reginald Farrer, pioneer of rock gardening, returning home to Ingleton from a plant-hunting expedition in the Far East. He got as far as Skipton but had missed the last train on to Ingleton. He ordered a special, which was ready in well under three hours. I t no doubt helped that his uncle was a director of the Midland. 

The Farrers actually lived at Ingleborough Hall in Clapham.  We rented a house in the village for a few months in 1958/59 and by the The Farrers, as he was known had moved into the Estate Agents house next door to where we were,due to death duties on the estate.  We played with the Farrers kids and played in the remains of Reginald's garden, now occupied by a bungalow.  

 

Jamie

Edited September 10, 2023 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, BMS said:

Sticking my neck out a long way, relying on eyesight and memory:

It is MWC and I believe its a Cambrian Rlwy Van.

Unfortunately and undefendably I can't find my kit in the stash.

Will come back if I do.

 

Right manufacturer but I'm afraid it was positively identified on Thursday as a kit for a G&SWR 6-ton van:

On 07/09/2023 at 11:18, Nick Holliday said:

I can confirm this identification.  Found it in my round-tuit cache.  Note the price!  All the MWC kits I bought came with etched axleguards, and many had the springs cast with the solebars.  The casting in the original picture doesn't look quite as crisp as mine, and I wondered if it might have come from Kingswood Models of Milton Keynes, who seem to have been in position to reintroduce some of the MWC range, but disappeared after a short existence.

 

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

The Farrers actually lived at Ingleborough Hall in Clapham.  We rented a house in the village for a few months in 1958/59 and by the The Farrers, as he was known had moved into the Estate Agents house next door to where we were,due to death duties on the estate.  We played with the Farrers kids and played in the remains of Reginald's garden, now occupied by a bungalow.  

 

I was convinced Reginald Farrer's rock garden was at Ingleton, but I stand corrected:

https://historicengland.org.uk/research/results/reports/7-2016.

 

So his special must have run to Clapham, rather than Ingleton, which probably simplified matters, since by the time he got to Skipton the branch was probably switched out for the night, whereas I presume the main line boxes were manned 24 hours?

[jamie92208]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was convinced Reginald Farrer's rock garden was at Ingleton, but I stand corrected:

https://historicengland.org.uk/research/results/reports/7-2016.

 

So his special must have run to Clapham, rather than Ingleton, which probably simplified matters, since by the time he got to Skipton the branch was probably switched out for the night, whereas I presume the main line boxes were manned 24 hours?

Thanks for that Stephen,I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the Historic England report and how it gels with My memories of 65 years ago.  It's obvious that area where I remember playing was round the site of the pond in the Craven Nursery where I remember seeing bamboo and other exotic plants.  By then the Hall was used by the West Riding County Council as a sort of sanitorium for children from the most deprived parts of the Industrial West Riding, particularly those with chest problems.  We were never allowed there and had no contact with the 'patients'.  Clapham would certainly have been manned 24/7 as there was quite a bit of night traffic.  It may well have been the next block from Settle Junction at night with Giggleswick and Eldroth switched out. 

 

Apologies for the digression from D299 's.  However many D299' s would have passed through Clapham to Ingleton for coal, lime, limestone and granite traffic.  All of which provided the Farrers with income. They were the owners of the Ingleton quarry areas. 

 

Jamie

' 

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

many D299' s would have passed through Clapham to Ingleton for coal, lime, limestone and granite traffic

 

And also onwards to Wennington Junction and the joint line to Carnforth and so to the Furness area, given the preference in those parts for housecoal sourced from the Yorkshire rather than Lancashire coalfields, as well as other goods from MR territory. 

 

As evidenced in this view of the sidings at Lindal where a rake of D299s along with Monckton and Old Silkstone wagons are heading towards Barrow. 

 

 

This is an extreme crop of a much larger photo of Lindal ore sidings circa 1910, which I am sharing here for research purposes.  (This photo has been discussed here previously.)  Copyright ownership is unclear. 

 

Neil 

 

 

[jamie92208]

4 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

And also onwards to Wennington Junction and the joint line to Carnforth and so to the Furness area, given the preference in those parts for housecoal sourced from the Yorkshire rather than Lancashire coalfields, as well as other goods from MR territory. 

 

As evidenced in this view of the sidings at Lindal where a rake of D299s along with Monckton and Old Silkstone wagons are heading towards Barrow. 

 

 

This is an extreme crop of a much larger photo of Lindal ore sidings circa 1910, which I am sharing here for research purposes.  (This photo has been discussed here previously.)  Copyright ownership is unclear. 

 

Neil 

 

 

There would indeed be plenty of  D299 's on both routes. Clapham had some long exchange sidings for traffic from Ingleton to head west as  well as the coal traffic that you mentioned. In my emails re  Beadman wagons there is mention of Ulverston Coop. However I don' t have any further details. 

 

Jamie

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by jamie92208

[MarcD]

Does anyone know what the PO wagons are?  Don't think I have them on my list of Po wagons on my list of PO wagons on the Furness.

Marc

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Does anyone know what the PO wagons are?  Don't think I have them on my list of Po wagons on my list of PO wagons on the Furness.

 

I can see Monckton and Old Silkstone, both in the Barnsley / Normanton area. In the Skipton Minerals Inwards Ledger I've been looking at, most coal came from collieries in this area, especially those connected to the North Midland line, so it's not surprising to find them further west along the same route.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Compound2632

[figworthy]

12 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

"At a few hours' notice." That's impressive. So I request a special train 3 hours before, and what happens then? How is this arranged and operated at such short notice?

 

 

In Dow's history of the Great Central, volume three, chapter 1 has a story from 1905 of a gentleman arriving at Marylebone just after the last train to Aylesbury departed.  He produced the return part of his first class ticket and 5 Sovereigns.  The station staff arrange a first class brake and engine so quickly that, classed as an express, at Chorley Wood it over took the all (?) stations service that he missed, so he arrived back in Aylesbury earlier than expected.

 

Adrian