More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I had assumed it was a D1 but looking more closely at the brake lever, I think it's a D103. But both had 9" sides.

 

I agree, but then we have a mystery:

 

 

11" tall, non-standard slates. 

[Mol_PMB]

Given that almost any open merchandise wagon could be used for slate traffic, I suspect that (after common-user arrangements were implemented) the slates were predominantly loaded into the empties that arrived in North Wales carrying inbound goods. Apart from slate and granite, there probably weren't many other exports from North Wales in significant quantities. 

I'll see if I can find any more relevant photos in my books. I recall seeing a BR shock high lettered 'empty to Blaenau Ffestiniog' which suggests that dedicated wagons were provided in later years.

[41516]

20 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I recall seeing a BR shock high lettered 'empty to Blaenau Ffestiniog' which suggests that dedicated wagons were provided in later years.

 

There's a photo I've linked before elsewhere on the forum of a Jinty at Port Dinorwic with shock opens (probably from Penmorfa.com, will have a look...)

 

 

Edit. There we go

Edited February 19 by 41516

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

"I model the 1950's your stuff is nice but to old"

As someone who models the 1950s, I have to say your site is very good (and I must get round to putting an order in) for showing which wagons did last into BR ownership. A lot of purveyors of pre-grouping kits don't, which is fine for local stuff as I can look them up, but I don't have the books for every company in the country to check - and as has been discussed many times in this thread, a good variety is essential...

[MarcD]

these could be loaded with slate. they look like they have been converted from dead buffered stock.

 

As a side the furness slate wagons weren't common user as they were the only wagons that could access the wharf at the bottom of the burlington incline. they lasted until the late 1950's. after they were sold out of service they lasted until 1981.

 

Marc

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, MarcD said:

these could be loaded with slate. they look like they have been converted from dead buffered stock.

A similar wagon is in this photo at Minffordd slate wharf:

 

 

Unfortunately the FR Heritage iBase is down for maintenance at the moment. But on Wikipedia I stumbled across this rather nice old image of the school at Blaenau Ffestiniog:

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, MarcD said:

these could be loaded with slate. they look like they have been converted from dead buffered stock.

 

Also wooden brake blocks.

 

pretty straightforward to modify from the kit for the dropside wagon, I'm thinking.

[WFPettigrew]

42 minutes ago, MarcD said:

As a side the furness slate wagons weren't common user as they were the only wagons that could access the wharf at the bottom of the burlington incline. they lasted until the late 1950's. after they were sold out of service they lasted until 1981.

 

Was this a height restriction Marc?  If so, where was it?  Nothing on the OS map to indicate a problem as there weren't any low bridges on the slate wharf branch?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[MarcD]

Width I think.

Marc

[airnimal]

The 4 wagons at Blaenau Ffestiniog were caught by the camera when the new school was built in 1876 if my memory is correct.  I have built one in S7 with the others on the list of projects still to do. 

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

Width I think.

 

Thanks.  Would be keen to see a source for this, as it would help inform the section about lowside opens in the planned book on FR wagons (not by me, but I am helping to draw information together). 

 

 

[MarcD]

I went to a IMechE lecture about 25 years ago. It had a film of the incline in operation and the Ex-FR wagon at the bottom.

Marc

[WFPettigrew]

1 minute ago, MarcD said:

I went to a IMechE lecture about 25 years ago. It had a film of the incline in operation and the Ex-FR wagon at the bottom.

Many thanks Marc. 

[MarcD]

Thought this might be of interest. These are taken from LNWR wagons vol1 pg74/75. Dia 7 slate truck wagon with falling doors.

 

Marc

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Thought this might be of interest. These are taken from LNWR wagons vol1 pg74/75. Dia 7 slate truck wagon with falling doors.

 

Yes indeed; no-one with a thorough-going interest in wagons should be without the three volumes of LNWR Wagons. 

 

From the text, it would appear that these 150 wagons carried the narrow gauge wagons between the interchange wharf at Blaenau and the quay at Deganwy, saving one transhipment. The LNWR built its own narrow gauge wagons for this traffic; presumably this saved on the hire of FR wagons but did the FR then have to pay hire on them while running from the quarries to Blaenau?

 

So, yes, interesting, as wagons, but not interesting from the point of view of slate traffic to the midlands. 

 

Like the D3 wagons, these D7 wagons had square-ended headstocks, lacking the usual quadrant cut out, these square ends acting as stops for the drop sides; the brake lever has a joggle in it to pass underneath the headstock, as it still wants to assert its Earlestown credentials by sticking out beyond the headstock. This all needs to be taken into account if building these diagrams from the Ratio D62 ballast wagons, as, notwithstanding the GA drawing on pp. 94-95 of LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, which shows square-ended headstocks, all the photos of these ballast wagons show the quadrant cut-out and three wood and/or spring steel door stops bolted to the solebar.

 

D3:

 

 

D62

 

[Mol_PMB]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

From the text, it would appear that these 150 wagons carried the narrow gauge wagons between the interchange wharf at Blaenau and the quay at Deganwy, saving one transhipment. The LNWR built its own narrow gauge wagons for this traffic; presumably this saved on the hire of FR wagons but did the FR then have to pay hire on them while running from the quarries to Blaenau?

 

The LNWR wagons would normally have only travelled short distances over the FR, effectively shunt movements between the foot of the inclines at Duffws and the LNWR yard, about half a mile. Possibly also from Dinas (FR) and/or Tanygrisiau but no further. How this was charged when the shunt movements were made by the FR, I'm not sure. 

There is certainly correspondence in the FR archives about who was responsible for oiling the LNWR wagons, so there's probably some details of who paid how much to whom for the haulage of the wagons.

 

After the FR closed in 1946, the traffic continued, operated by the slate quarries with their own loco, and they paid to lease the FR line between Duffws and the LNWR yard.

 

Although the FR now has some LNWR and GWR slate wagons and has restored a few for use in the gravity train, these wagons would not normally have run down to Minffordd or Porthmadog, and the brakes are not really suitable for gravity train working (more a parking brake than a running brake).

[Mol_PMB]

Anyone fancying a day out in Caernarfon could have a look at the following documents in Gwynedd Archives for a clue as to how the FR/LNWR slate traffic was charged and who was responsible for what:

 

XD97/11732    1897    July 1    TARIFF: Slate rates 1 July 1897 shown by quarry, London & North Western & Great Western depots, Minffordd and Portmadoc.

XD97/11742    1920    Jan.    BUNDLE: Festiniog Railway. Rates for carriage of slates [shown by quarry] old and revised rates to the London & North Western Railway Depot, Festiniog Railway Company Dept, Portmadoc & Minffordd to 15 January 1920 and from 15 January 1920; Rates for common slates [to stations in the UK].. 

XD97/11941    1918-9        FILE: 723. Charges for use of the railway to the London & North Western Railway & Great Western Railway for Messrs Brookes’ traffic.

XD97/16654    1919    Oct.  7-22    LETTER: H.G. Griffiths Duffws Station to A.G. Crick re London & North Western Railway wagons with slate traffic.

XD97/16655    1919    Oct.  15    REPORT: H.G. Griffiths Duffws Station to A.G. Crick. Statement for traffic of slates in the Festiniog Railway wagons from Oakeleys to London & North Western Railway wharf for 3 months ending 31 August 1919.

XD97/22143    1917-19        FILE: 886. Traffic in London & North Western Railway wagons.

XD97/24353    1897    Aug. 5    LETTER: T. Henshaw London & North Western Railway Chester to J.S. Hughes re narrow gauge wagons, asking for better attention to our traffic … “am receiving strong complaints…”.

 

XD97/24341    1880    Dec. 17    LETTER: F. Houghton London & North Western Railway to C.E. Spooner re slates rates Blaenau & London & North Western Railway.

XD97/24342    1881        BUNDLE: London & North Western Railway. Rates for slates in 4 ton loads at owners risk Station to Station from Blaenau. [Also shows Cambrian rates in red].

XD97/24344    1883    May 24    BUNDLE: Mr. Finlay London & North Western Railway re London & North Western Railway slate rates; List of revised rates for common slates.
 

XD97/6585    1886        BUNDLE: J.S. Hughes. Draft statement shewing the annual loss to the Festiniog Railway and the Cambrian Railway by placing traffic on same footing to the companies at Portmadoc as it would be at Deganwy based on returns of 1885; Portmadoc Harbour and ballast bank charges; Notes re Deganwy as given to J.S. Hughes by Mr. Jonathan Davies from correspondence with London & North Western Railway Company.

XD97/6586    1886    Feb. 4    NOTES: J.S. Hughes. Notes. Charges at Deganwy Wharf by London & North Western Railway.
XD97/24348    1885-86        BUNDLE: Correspondence London & North Western Railway and the Festiniog Railway 17 June 1885 – 9 January 1886 re the wharf in construction at Deganwy and the shipment of slate.

XD97/8232    1900-13        REPORT: F.G. Crick. Tonnage of slates: total tonnage over the line, down the line, to the London & North Western Railway, to the Great Western Railway, to the Cambrian – shown annually.
XD97/11298    1881-2        REPORT: Slates sent to the London & North Western Co. Blaenau Station in 1881 and 1882.

XD97/11299    1881-5        REPORT: Quantity of slates from Blaenau Festiniog by the London & North Western Railway. Co. and the Great Western Railway for 4 years ending 1885.

XD97/11303    1881-91        REPORT: Blaenau Junction tonnages of slates 1881 to 1891.

XD97/11304    1881-93        REPORT: Tonnage of slate quarries to Minffordd, Portmadoc, London & North Western Railway and Great Western Railway for 1881, 1882, 1893.

XD97/11305    1881-1912    BUNDLE: Tonnage of slates sent by Cambrian, L.N.W. and G.W. Rlys: Oakeley, Maenofferen, Votty & Bowydd, Rhiwbach, J.W. Greaves 1881-1912.

XD97/11306    1882    March 31    REPORT: Slates sent from the quarries to the Blaenau Station of the London & North Western Railway for the quarter ending 31 March 1882.

XD97/11309    1882-6        REPORT: Slates to the London & North Western Railway & Great Western Railway years at Blaenau Festiniog for 4½ years ended 30 June 1886.

XD97/11331b    1902-13        BUNDLE: Slate traffic forwarded via Blaenau Festiniog and London & North Western Railway and Great Western Railway also via Minffordd and Cambrian Railways 1902-1913. 29 November 1913. [3 copies 1 - annotated].

XD97/11331c    1902-13        BUNDLE: Slate traffic forwarded via Blaenau Festiniog and London & North Western Railway and Great Western Railway also via Minffordd and Cambrian Railways 1902-1913. 18 February 1914.

XD97/11331d    1902-13        BUNDLE: Slate traffic forwarded via Blaenau Festiniog and London & North Western Railway and Great Western Railway also via Minffordd and Cambrian Railways 1902-1913. 2 April 1914.

XD97/11331e    1904-11        REPORT: Tonnage of slate traffic sent to the London & North Western Railway, Great Western Railway and Cambrian Railways Minffordd for the years 1904-1911. [Indicated by quarry].
 

XD97/8732    1917    Sept. 14    LETTER: A.G. Crick to London & North Western Railway Chester re the Festiniog Railway wagons waiting at Blaenau to be emptied.

XD97/8945    1919    April 23    LETTER: A.G. Crick to H.G. Griffiths Duffws re the wagons at London & North Western Railway sidings for Manod Co.

XD97/9775a    1911    Sept.-Oct.     BUNDLE: J.P. Roberts to Mr. Crick, H.G. Griffiths, G.W. Pugh, London & North Western Railway, J.T. Jones re the damage to wagon No. 119.

XD97/12603    1904    Sept. 14    LETTER: H. Humphris Rhiwbach Slate Quarries to J.S. Hughes applying to the Commissioners as he cannot get a regular supply of coal or empty trams from the London & North Western Railway. 

XD97/16519    1910    Aug.-Oct.     BUNDLE: D. Owen Duffws Station, F.G. Crick, R. Williams, Rowland Jones, London & North Western Railway Chester 18 August – 5 October 1910 re Palmerston off the road at Blaenau Festiniog and the condition of the L.N.W.R. sidings.

XD97/16615    1919    April 24    BUNDLE: H.G. Griffiths Duffws Station and A.G. Crick re wagons at the London & North Western Railway sidings Nos. 45, 141.

XD97/21299    1912    April 17    LETTER: Robert Williams to F.G. Crick re the oiling of the London &     North Western Railway small slate wagons.

XD97/24435    1912    April 18-19    BUNDLE: London & North Western Railway Blaenau to F.G. Crick re the oiling of London & North Western Railway small slate wagons.

[Compound2632]

Back in the summer, I'd started a set of Mousa kits for early Clayton wagons; as usual with Mousa kits, painting came at an early stage but in this case I then started dithering about numbering. The numerology reported in recent posts has been a by-product of this dithering!

 

I have now given these three wagons identities. Here we have Drg. 402, Lot 29 highside wagon No. 31455, Drg. 10 lowside wagon No. 28489, and Drg. 401, diagram D353 covered goods wagon No. 7480:

 

 

The lowside wagon was the first of these three to be built. Drg. 10 was the first wagon drawing made, by draughtsman P. Ellis, in the new Litchurch Lane Carriage & Wagon Drawing Office. It was entered in the C&W Drawing Register on 7 January 1874 but this entry is annotated "Drawing made Oct 1873 x Tracing Sept 15 Shop"; it would seem that wagons to this design were being built as renewals from very soon after Clayton's appointment. They differed from later production to Drg. 213 of November 1875 in several respects, the most visible of which being that, following the practice of Kirtley's time, the end was made of two 3" thick planks, rather than three 2½" thick planks. The inside length was the same for both designs, 14' 6", so wagons to Drg. 10 were 15' 0" long over headstocks. The adoption of thinner end planks for Drg. 213 is the origin of the 14' 11" length of the vast majority of Midland wagons built up to the early years of the 20th century. 

 

Very large numbers of lowside wagons had been ordered as additions to stock in the closing years of Kirtley's time, 9,800 being ordered from various builders, chiefly Brown Marshall & Co. and Gloucester Wagon Co., between 1867 and the end of 1872; the last of these were not delivered until mid-1874. Nevertheless, yet more lowside wagons were wanted. After an initial batch of 500 ordered from S.J. Claye in November 1874, a further 1,000 were ordered on 2 February 1875 as part of an enormous spending spree on additional goods rolling stock that also included 100 goods brake vans from The Railway Carriage Co., Oldbury (these being the prototypes of the characteristic single-veranda Midland brake van) and 20 ballast brakes from the same firm, 500 highside wagons to Drg. 89 from the North of England Wagon Co. (No. 29350 is illustrated at Midland Wagons plate 90), 250 cattle wagons to Drgs. 100 and 101 from Gloucester (No. 27966 is illustrated at Midland Wagons plate 246), and a pair of 30-ton boiler trucks from the Patent Shaft co. Wednesbury (Nos. 29570 and 29571, Midland Wagons plate 337), at a total cost of £87,784 11s 8d exclusive of wheels, axles, bearing and buffing springs. Many thousands of these were ordered at the following meeting of the Carriage & Wagon Committee. The order with Oldbury included 10 goods brake vans as renewals and that with Gloucester, 25 large cattle wagons, also as renewals, the Etches Park works being fully occupied with repairs (Midland Wagons plate 250 illustrates one of these, cattle wagon No. 8350). The lowside wagons were ordered from Ashbury, Gloucester, and C. Janson & Sons, Darlington.

 

The Gloucester cattle wagon photos carry dates of November and December 1875, giving some indication of the length of time taken for these orders to be fulfilled. (These must have been among the last completed; the Returns of Working Stock give the number of cattle wagons as 1,075 at 31 December 1874, 1,172 at 30 June 1875, and 1,325 at 31 December 1875. During 1875, the total wagon stock excluding brakes increased by 2,423 but only by 131 in the first six months of 1876.) Going back to October 1874, 20 traction wagons had been ordered from J.M. Bennett; one of these was numbered 27488 (Midland Wagons plate 23). Going forward, the next additions to stock after these February 1875 orders (apart from seven crane match wagons) were 100 ballast wagons, ordered from the Retford Wagon Co. in July 1875, one of which was No. 29670 (Midland Wagons plate 16). There is this a range of at most 2,181 numbers, 27489-29669, into which the 500 lowside wagons ordered from Claye in November 1874 and the 1,752 wagons ordered in February 1875 ought to fit - which they don't quite! One has to suppose that some of Claye's wagons were delivered before Bennett's, and/or that the Retford Co. delivered some of their ballast wagons before the earlier orders were complete. 

 

The pair of 30-ton boiler trucks were numbered quite near the end of this sequence, although the tender was for delivery within six weeks of receipt of order! My little list includes 10 cattle wagons with numbers in the range 27852-28052, including the one built by Gloucester noted above, with only a couple of other wagons in that range. Five of these numbers are of D298 calf vans built 1908-9, which from the lack of any mention in the minutes one can presume were built as renewals of old cattle wagons - quite possibly the second renewal since 1875, since cattle wagons seem to have been renewed after a shorter period than other wagons, about 17 years on average. Other wagons in this range in my list are either highside or lowside wagons (not necessarily dating back to 1875) and covered goods wagons of early 20th century vintage - many of which were built as renewals of open wagons. 

 

 

No. 28489 sits in the middle of this range of numbers; it is in my little list as a wagon transferred to ballast use according to a document of uncertain date, a list of ballast wagons to be broken up and replaced by others, addressed to Mr Ledbetter at Settle [MRSC 26452]. Other documents addressed to Mr. Ledbetter date from the decade or so before the Great War; from the caption to MRSC 23874, one learns that Mr Ledbetter was Permanent Way Inspector at Settle from September 1905, so No. 28489 cannot have been assigned to ballast work before then. It is possible - probable that that No. 28489 was not this wagon of 1875 but its replacement. The risk I run for 1902 is that that replacement was built in the late 1890s...

 

As to the model, I have built it sprung, rather than taking the option of gluing the bearing carriers in place. These three wagons are the first I've built with printed rather than etched bearing carriers. These are easier to set up for springing, as there is simply a groove in the top of the bearing carrier to engage with the spring wire, which is also easier to set up, being located in a hole at one end but just resting in a groove at the other. The deflection of the spring wire is rather greater than in previous Mousa wagons. This photo may help:

 

 

I haven't fitted the printed floor; my intention is to use a piece of sheet lead as the wagon will be modelled with a load (nature TBD). 

[corneliuslundie]

Just for the record, that Cambrian 2-plank up thread was at Aberdovey before 1871. So not sure about slate traffic, as Corris traffic went to Machynlleth. Unless it was from Machynlleth for export by sea.

Jonathan

Edited February 26 by corneliuslundie
add date

[jamie92208]

If I may Interrupt the thread and digress slightly to PO wagons.  @WFPettigrew may be interested. In this.  In 1902 Charles Roberts constructed a batch of 10 ton wagons for R Laycock,a Coal merchant at Skipton.  10 of this batch were numbered and lettered in pairs to serve flows to individual coal Merchants in various places north and west of Skipton. As well as some that went to various places on the Northern part of the S and C,, four of them were for Merchants in Barrow in Furness.

 

27 &28 empty to Glasshoughton Collieries to load Main, for L Ashcroft, Barrow in Furness.
29 & 30 empty to Glasshoughton Collieries to load Main for R Townson, Barrow in Furness
31 empty to Carlton Main Colliery Cudworth to load hards for G Carrodus, Kirkby Stephen
32 empty to Carlton Main Colliery, Cudworth to load Hards for R Braithwaite, Ormside.    
33  empty to Carlton Main Colliery, Cudworth to load hards for Ewin and Dargrave, Appleby.
                                
These wagons were built by Charles Roberts in 1902 and were standard 5 plank 10 ton wagons.

 

From memory Keith Turton wrote an article about Laycock's in the HMRS journal fairly recently.  He didn't have a photo of any of their wagons.  There will of course be basic livery details in the Roberts order booms at the NRM. 

 

Jamie

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

If I may Interrupt the thread and digress slightly to PO wagons.  @WFPettigrew may be interested. In this.  In 1902 Charles Roberts constructed a batch of 10 ton wagons for R Laycock,a Coal merchant at Skipton.  10 of this batch were numbered and lettered in pairs to serve flows to individual coal Merchants in various places north and west of Skipton. As well as some that went to various places on the Northern part of the S and C,, four of them were for Merchants in Barrow in Furness.

 

27 &28 empty to Glasshoughton Collieries to load Main, for L Ashcroft, Barrow in Furness.
29 & 30 empty to Glasshoughton Collieries to load Main for R Townson, Barrow in Furness
31 empty to Carlton Main Colliery Cudworth to load hards for G Carrodus, Kirkby Stephen
32 empty to Carlton Main Colliery, Cudworth to load Hards for R Braithwaite, Ormside.    
33  empty to Carlton Main Colliery, Cudworth to load hards for Ewin and Dargrave, Appleby.
                                
These wagons were built by Charles Roberts in 1902 and were standard 5 plank 10 ton wagons.

 

R. Laycock's Nos. 25-39 were Midland Reg. Nos. 38955-38969. Unfortunately not a section of the register I've looked at myself.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

cattle wagons seem to have been renewed after a shorter period than other wagons, about 17 years on average.

Any thoughts as to why that might be the case? The rot-accelerating properties of bovine ordure? Is this specific to the Midland, or did other railway companies also replace cattle wagons more often than other types?

 

Not expecting you to necessarily have all the answers to these questions, but your observation has piqued my curiosity.

 

Nick.

[jamie92208]

1 minute ago, magmouse said:

Any thoughts as to why that might be the case? The rot-accelerating properties of bovine ordure? Is this specific to the Midland, or did other railway companies also replace cattle wagons more often than other types?

 

Not expecting you to necessarily have all the answers to these questions, but your observation has piqued my curiosity.

 

Nick.

It might be because of the move to standard large wagons rather than three sizes.  If I remember correctly there were different rates for the three sizes but getting the right mix of wagons to the customer was tricky so they built all new ones to large size with a move able partition and then charged appropriately the customer appropriately. 

 

Jamie

[magmouse]

3 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

It might be because of the move to standard large wagons rather than three sizes.  If I remember correctly there were different rates for the three sizes but getting the right mix of wagons to the customer was tricky so they built all new ones to large size with a move able partition and then charged appropriately the customer appropriately. 

 

That's an interesting thought - we need one of Stephen's graphs of build rate over time, to see if there is a spike in build/replacement for a relatively short time, with a more typical steady state rate either side.

[jamie92208]

Re Laycock, I've found Keith Turton article in the HMRS journal, vol 23 no 10 9ages 37and 380.  It appears that he was linked with H Robinson and had quite a few wagons, mainly built btpy Roberts.  The livery was red oxide with white lettering and there is a sketch in the article. 

 

Jamie