More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Worsdell forever]

On 13/01/2024 at 16:48, Compound2632 said:

Not a wagon in sight but this intriguing photo was posted in the Facebook group "Everything North Eastern Railway" by Mick Nicholson:

 

 

[Embedded link]

 

Poppleton Junction, York; date not given. Note the right-hand arm of the three doll signal on the left.

 

Caption for this photo where it appears in 'Signalling Centres North East : No1 York' NERA 2020.

 

[billbedford]

Painted incorrectly? well, that would depend on what colour the reverse of these signals were painted. On the three doll signals to the left of the bridge in the foreground, two of the three arms have black stripes on an indeterminate background. 

[apl31]

Regarding NER signals this is part of a photo of an accident in Co Durham dated 1892.

The Signal on right appears to have a notch and a "+" on the back. The one on left appears to have round on front. Although neither is clear.

Edited January 15 by apl31

[Compound2632]

These NER signals have just been to distract attention from my failure to do any modelling since before Christmas! Today I did get stuck in but I won't post progress here as it's a passenger carriage I am attempting to build...

[Chas Levin]

Unexpected wagon in the bagging area...

 

While studying LNER Sentinel railcar photos in (my dog-eared secondhand copy of) Yeadon yesterday, I noticed the LMS vehicles in this photo (reproduced here for study purposes only) of 2257 Defiance, passing Newsham whilst working the Blyth shuttle in June 1938:

 

 

Here's a close-up to save zooming in:

 

 

Sadly the running numbers are illegible (they are in the book too, it's not just my poor photography skills) and I shan't chance my arm amongst such knowledgeable company on identifying the diagram number...

Edited January 18 by Chas Levin

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Unexpected wagon in the bagging area...

 

I'm pretty sure that what we have here is one of the 1,000 D299 wagons of lot 919, built in 1917 because of a pressing need for additional wagons and because material for the by-then-standard D663A wagons in short supply - specifically, wheelsets suitable for 10 ton wagons, whereas sets for 8 ton wagons were in stock from broken-up wagons. This wagon has the distinctive vertical straps mid-way between the side-knee washer plates and the corner plates, but the planks are of uniform width, whereas on a D663A wagon, the top and bottom plank are a bit wider.

 

So, something of a rarity - good spot. I must say this beats twitching*.

 

*Before anybody says anything, I mean twitching in the extreme bird-watching sense.

Edited January 18 by Compound2632

[sir douglas]

stacked high behind Rhymney No121 (ex railmotor No1)

[corneliuslundie]

Is that Midland or Rhymney though?

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Is that Midland or Rhymney though?

 

It is indubitably a D299. The covered goods wagon on the left is Midland too. 

 

@sir douglas, is when and where known?

[sir douglas]

No idea but its still in Rhymney territory, 121 was rebuilt like this in 1911 but it is before renumbering to GWR 662, so 1911 to 1923.

 

I only know this much after finding about it this morning

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/rhymney.htm

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Great_Britain&wheel=0-4-0&railroad=rhymney#20034

[Compound2632]

Great Western loco coal wagons are in the news a bit, with Rapido announcing an N19; this appeared on a Facebook Group "19th Century Railway Enthusiasts" notwithstanding the c. 1906 date:

 

 

According to my notes from Atkins et al., GWR Goods Wagons, No. 53347 is diagram N4 of Lot 330 and No. 53490 is an N3 of Lot 368, both 20 ton wagons built c. 1900/1, but already repainted with the large G W lettering - though not the full 25" as seen on the wagon on the extreme left but scaled to fit the available space above the drop doors. What does the inscription say? I get:

 

To --- -- -----------

--------- Colliery

GCRy via Banbury

 

The wagon next to the right of No. 53490 is from the same lot, [5]349[?] but still in its original livery - small G.W.R just visible at the RH end - which does raise the question of what colour each of these wagons is. 

 

I think the wagon on the extreme right must be another N4; it has the same style of top beading as No. 53347. The inscription To Carry 20 Tons is above the LH door on both this and its neighbour.

 

The wagon on the extreme left looks taller; its number 539[??] implies that it is an N2 of Lot 462, also a 20 ton type, since it's clearly not a bogie wagon. Not having the book in my hands, I can't check on these subtleties of appearance.

Edited February 10 by Compound2632

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The wagon next to the right of No. 53490 is from the same lot, [5]349[?] but still in its original livery - small G.W.R just visible at the RH end - which does raise the question of what colour each of these wagons is. 

Nooooooooo GWR wagon colours were mentioned!  Run! hide! Tin hats must be worn, - don't come out until you hear the all clear siren.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Annie said:

Nooooooooo GWR wagon colours were mentioned!  Run! hide! Tin hats must be worn, - don't come out until you hear the all clear siren.

 

I liked @RapidoCorbs' reply to a question as to whether their N19s were very dark grey or faded black:

[Compound2632]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Great Western loco coal wagons

 

I've copied this post to the GWR rolling stock sub-forum, highlighting the loco coal via Banbury aspect:

[Compound2632]

I'm going to return to the question of high-capacity loco coal wagons but here's a brief on-topic diversion. I've been sent this scan of a photo taken at Whitemoor Yard, reproduced in a book published in 1960 (so terminus ante quem):

 

 

The equal-width planking means that it's not the 10 / 12-ton D663A but an 8-ton D299 - one of the wartime batch of 1,000, lot 919 of 1917. It's a shame that the T of the capacity marking is visible but not the preceding digit!

 

I think I can convince myself that it's got the D-shaped numberplate introduced on the Midland in 1913 and subsequently the RCH standard shape.

[Mol_PMB]

Probably not D299's, but here's a nice selection of pre-grouping wagon photos on Manchester Docks, thanks to Manchester Archives on Flickr:

 

 

CLC and former Midland vans?

A variety of pre-group opens but a brand-new LMS sheet:

 

What's the LMS word for 'Crocodile'? Also there's something odd about the track and is that wagon actually on the rails? Possibly a length of narrow-gauge track laid temporarily to put the Vulcan locos on? Quite a list on the ship!

L&Y and Midland wagons in the foreground. The L&Y seemed to like long-wheelbase opens and this one appears to have doors both ends which is unusual for a merchandise wagon.

Interesting rooves on these vans - are they insulated and with ice-boxes? Are those lumps of meat being slung by the crane?

Post-grouping but the wagons are older and look like some MR types?

A whole train of Trafford Park Estates wagons, not so often seen:

Shame about the quality of this one, note the dismantled Garratt in the foreground:

 

Mol

[Grahams]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I think I can convince myself that it's got the D-shaped numberplate introduced on the Midland in 1913 and subsequently the RCH standard shape.

I fell down that little trap not long ago when I said I would make some full-size replica plates for an LMS wagon. 

No problem, I thought. I have the Midland drawing of the D shaped plates. 

It turns out that the RCH shape (used by the LMS) is different in several details. The Midland width is 11.25 in vs 11 in and the top corner radii are 1 in vs 1.25 in. There are corresponding adjustments to the other dimensions. The Midland has square holes vs the rectangles of the RCH. 

Picture of one of my replica plates is attached. 

Also interesting is the variation in shapes made by the many foundries producing them after the grouping. 

As a result of the research I did, I really should write an article on what I found. Another article in the queue (sigh). 

[figworthy]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Probably not D299's, but here's a nice selection of pre-grouping wagon photos on Manchester Docks, thanks to Manchester Archives on Flickr:

 

 

Thanks.  A fascinating collection of pictures.

 

Adrian

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Probably not D299's, but here's a nice selection of pre-grouping wagon photos on Manchester Docks, thanks to Manchester Archives on Flickr:

 

A good lot there! I shall have to go through carefully but I've already picked out a couple of Midland refrigerator meat vans - the ones you noted, but I'm not sure straight off what the two inbetween are - the end bracing has a bit of a Great Western look.

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

L&Y and Midland wagons in the foreground. The L&Y seemed to like long-wheelbase opens and this one appears to have doors both ends which is unusual for a merchandise wagon.

 

The L&Y built a lot of these wagons with doors on both ends.

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, Grahams said:

It turns out that the RCH shape (used by the LMS) is different in several details. The Midland width is 11.25 in vs 11 in and the top corner radii are 1 in vs 1.25 in. There are corresponding adjustments to the other dimensions. The Midland has square holes vs the rectangles of the RCH. 

Picture of one of my replica plates is attached. 

 

I think both sets of dimensions are essentially the same, with the larger set representing as cast and the smaller ones finished plates. 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, billbedford said:

I think both sets of dimensions are essentially the same, with the larger set representing as cast and the smaller ones finished plates. 

 

And anyway, what I meant was that the RCH plates were the same in outline as the Midland plates, rather than in detail dimensions. I'm not even confident that the dimensions of the Midland D-plates were consistent, as I've seen some for high-capacity wagons that have a different look to them. 

[Grahams]

8 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

I think both sets of dimensions are essentially the same, with the larger set representing as cast and the smaller ones finished plates. 

The dimensions are on the drawings,  not from measurements. The plates are not machined at all, so what do you mean by finished? 

[Grahams]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

And anyway, what I meant was that the RCH plates were the same in outline as the Midland plates, rather than in detail dimensions. I'm not even confident that the dimensions of the Midland D-plates were consistent, as I've seen some for high-capacity wagons that have a different look to them. 

It's the outline I'm talking about. The outline is different. 

[Compound2632]

Graham's LMS numberplate:

 

 

Midland numberplate:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 11448.]

 

Obviously much more rounded top corners on the LMS plate - the tighter corners on the Midland plate give room for the word MIDLAND.