More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Nick Lawson]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

What do they do for bolection mouldings?

 

Ah, I have now found the instruction download which is common but not linked to all relevant kits: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/mrd493.pdf

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

 

Ah, I have now found the instruction download which is common but not linked to all relevant kits: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/mrd493.pdf

 

 

Thanks, I read there that the bolection moldings are separate etched parts to be added to the sides. 

[MR Chuffer]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

separate etched parts

In my particular version, if I understand you correctly, the bolections are finely already etched onto the sides and for my other Wizard kits too.

[Compound2632]

On 28/07/2022 at 10:06, Nearholmer said:

Did the MR flog-off any of these to lesser railways? They look like ideal light Railway fodder to me.

 

More from the minutes! The Midland did a steady trade in selling off duplicate stock in the decade before the Great War, mostly to John F. Wake of Darlington, initially in partnership with the well-known wagon firm of R.Y. Pickering & Co., Glasgow, and later with Edward E. Cornforth of Stoke-on-Trent. I think it was through these dealers that Col. Stephens onbained most of the ex-Midland stock he had on his various light railways. Wake and Pickering, and then Wake and Cornforth, had a rolling contract to buy surplus 8-ton high-side wagons - D299 - at the rate of 400 per annum; sometimes the contract had to be renewed ahead of time as they'd bought their allocation. I haven't done an exact count but upwards of 4,000 wagons were disposed of this way up to c. 1916. Since I can see no other way of accounting for them, I presume the D299 wagons recorded as being in SECR livery with C-prefixed numbers during the Great War were on hire from one or other of these dealers.

 

There were also direct sales to various firms for internal use, including 34 old covered goods wagons to Baldwins of Landore - the firm was also obtaining covered goods wagons from Gloucester RC&W Co. around this time. Batches of low side wagons were sold to the Uruguay Midland and Uruguay Northern Railways.

 

As to carriages, old bogie carriages of early 1880s vintage seem to have been more popular than 6-wheelers. There was a series of direct sales to the M&SWJR (a Midland protégé anyway) that are well documented; the Col.'s Shropshire & Montgomeryshire had some, bought in April 1911 from R. White & Sons of Widnes. C&W minute 5111 of 16 March 1911 reads:

 

Sale of Old Carriages

               Submitted application from Messrs R. White & Sons of Widnes, to purchase four old passenger carriages and two old passenger guards’ vans.

               Resolved

                              That the following vehicles in the duplicate stock be sold to them at the prices named, delivered at Derby:

               Two bogie third class carriages at £125 each

               Two bogie composite carriages at £140 each

               Two passenger guards’ vans at £68-10-0 ea.

 

Which is an exact match for the S&M stock.

 

Prior to that, minute 5028 of 16 June 1910 records the sale of some 6-wheelers, along with one bogie carriage; I expect @Regularity will be familiar with these:

 

Sale of Old Carriages.

               Submitted application from the Stratford-upon-Avon and Midland Junction Railway to purchase four old carriages, viz:- one composite, two third class, and one bogie third brake.

               Resolved that the same be sold to that Company for the sum of Five Hundred Pounds, delivered at Derby.

 

In several transactions in 1906/7, Wake bought seven old firsts - undoubtedly 29 ft 4-compartment firsts of 1875/6 - for £110 each and three unspecified 6-wheelers for £300 the lot. In 1910 he bought a couple more firsts, now down to £100. Firsts sound unlikely vehicles for workmen's trains, one wonders who his customer was?

 

It was not until after the war that Wake bought more carriages, per minute 6029 of 18 Dec 1919:

 

Sale of Old Carriages

               Resolved that the following old passenger vehicles, which are unfit for further traffic, be sold to Mr J.F. Wake, of Darlington, at the undermentioned prices:-

               8 Third Class Carriages at £200 each

               3 Composite Carriages at £220 each

               3 Passenger Guards’ Brake Vans at £160 each

Free on rail at Derby, plus £25 per vehicle for altering short buffers to long buffers on certain vehicles.

 

I've found no other mention of the carriages that went to the Brecon & Merthyr; do these match those? One of the B&M thirds has survived and is currently undergoing restoration - not, I hope, to Great Western livery!

 

Wartime inflation had double the prices. Many of the 31 ft 5-compartment thirds had been built as part of short-buffered close-coupled sets in 1883/4, so these will have been the ones requiring alteration. No 31 ft composites or 25 ft brakes were built for these sets, which included 31 ft third brakes and bespoke 30 ft 4-compartment firsts.

 

There were several direct sales to other firms during and after the war, including Kynoch Ltd., Tredegar Iron & Coal Co., Staveley Iron & Coal Co., and Powell Duffryn Coal Co.; these were presumably all for internal workmen's trains.

 

One of the most remarkable vehicles sold was the "old bogie composite" sold to the Isle of Wight Central Railway in 1907 and used there as the passenger part of an ersatz steam railmotor:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

This was a truly historic carriage - one of the 54 ft 12-wheel bogie composites of 1876 - the first British 12-wheelers. If that carriage had survived, it would have taken pride of place in the National Collection.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Compound2632

[Nick C]

17 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I believe the major disincentive for many people modelling pre-group is the lack of coaching stock, which often had relatively complex liveries and are therefore too daunting for many.  Again you would need several rakes of different carriages, corridor and non-corridor, full brakes, etc. for a reasonable presentation. 

This is the thing for me - I'd like to build a small pre-grouping layout, but I don't have the skill, nor a steady enough hand, to paint the intricate lined liveries that were commonplace then - if I could buy some RTR coaches and locos that are at least reasonably accurate, I could at least get something going. Though as you say, wagons are much easier, so I've been thinking more seriously recently about a small 'inglenook' shunting layout. Problem is, I'm much more interested in coaching stock than wagons, if that's not too much of a blasphemy for this thread!

[Compound2632]

Just now, Nick C said:

Problem is, I'm much more interested in coaching stock than wagons, if that's not too much of a blasphemy for this thread!

 

Not at all, though I need to revive my "D508 appreciation" topic...

[Regularity]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Prior to that, minute 5028 of 16 June 1910 records the sale of some 6-wheelers, along with one bogie carriage; I expect @Regularity will be familiar with these:

 

Sale of Old Carriages.

               Submitted application from the Stratford-upon-Avon and Midland Junction Railway to purchase four old carriages, viz:- one composite, two third class, and one bogie third brake.

               Resolved that the same be sold to that Company for the sum of Five Hundred Pounds, delivered at Derby.

 

I wasn’t aware of the price, so thanks for that!

(They bought two more bogie coaches in 1912.)

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Regularity said:

(They bought two more bogie coaches in 1912.)

 

That'll be minuted in the final section I've yet to transcribe!

[Compound2632]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

It was not until after the war that Wake bought more carriages, per minute 6029 of 18 Dec 1919:

 

Sale of Old Carriages

               Resolved that the following old passenger vehicles, which are unfit for further traffic, be sold to Mr J.F. Wake, of Darlington, at the undermentioned prices:-

               8 Third Class Carriages at £200 each

               3 Composite Carriages at £220 each

               3 Passenger Guards’ Brake Vans at £160 each

Free on rail at Derby, plus £25 per vehicle for altering short buffers to long buffers on certain vehicles.

 

I've found no other mention of the carriages that went to the Brecon & Merthyr; do these match those? One of the B&M thirds has survived and is currently undergoing restoration - not, I hope, to Great Western livery!

 

Wartime inflation had double the prices. Many of the 31 ft 5-compartment thirds had been built as part of short-buffered close-coupled sets in 1883/4, so these will have been the ones requiring alteration. No 31 ft composites or 25 ft brakes were built for these sets, which included 31 ft third brakes and bespoke 30 ft 4-compartment firsts.

 

These are the Brecon & Merthyr carriages. According to R.E Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 1 p. 111, they were purchased from Wake by his partner E.E. Cornforth, acting on behalf of the B&M.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[corneliuslundie]

Became B&M Nos. 101-103 full brakes, 104-106 1st/2nd composites, 107-114 thirds, according to Mountford. All but one (107) withdrawn by 1928.

Mountford has the comment against the brake thirds "The body length quoted is as given in the GW register [24 ft 6 in.]. The Midland Railway diagram (No, D 529) quotes the length over mouldings as 25 ft 0 1/4 in."

He also notes composite No. 104  as downclassed to 1st/3rd composite and later downrated to third. Since the Midland had already abolished second class presumably the B&M uprated the composites initially. That can't have happened too often.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Became B&M Nos. 101-103 full brakes, 104-106 1st/2nd composites, 107-114 thirds, according to Mountford. All but one (107) withdrawn by 1928.

Mountford has the comment against the brake thirds "The body length quoted is as given in the GW register [24 ft 6 in.]. The Midland Railway diagram (No, D 529) quotes the length over mouldings as 25 ft 0 1/4 in."

He also notes composite No. 104  as downclassed to 1st/3rd composite and later downrated to third. Since the Midland had already abolished second class presumably the B&M uprated the composites initially. That can't have happened too often.

Jonathan

 

That's the numbering given by Lacy & Dow. The 4-wheel brakes (not brake thirds) were officially 25' 0" over end panels, so with the usual ⅜" beading should have been 25' ¾" over mouldings. I wonder what copy of D529 Mountford was looking at, since that reproduced in Lacy & Dow just gives the 25' 0" length - in common with other diagrams, it's the length and width over panels that's given. The length over headstocks was 24' 5".

 

I suspect the Great Western people were using a broad gauge tape measure.

 

Of course a Midland third-class compartment of the 1880s was as good as anyone else's second at that time! When the Midland abolished second class, what it really did was abolish third (except that wasn't legally possible) and charge third-class rates for second-class travel and second-class rates for first-class travel. I suspect it was the latter move, rather than the abolition of second as such, that really got up the other companies' noses.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, a typo, they were full brakes not brake thirds. I initially misread Mountford who uses the Cambrian terminology of them having a guard's compartment and a cupboard (ie a luggage section).

Anyway, rather a long way from pregrouping wagons!

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Anyway, rather a long way from pregrouping wagons!

 

Not so far. I'm finding this whole second-hand trade in Midland stock intriguing. 

 

Col. Stephens acquired all sorts of odds and ends of stock, including South Western, Great Eastern, and North London vehicles - presumably these came via agents such as Wake and Cornforth.

[queensquare]

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not so far. I'm finding this whole second-hand trade in Midland stock intriguing. 

 

Col. Stephens acquired all sorts of odds and ends of stock, including South Western, Great Eastern, and North London vehicles - presumably these came via agents such as Wake and Cornforth.

 

I have long followed and enjoyed this thread but, with my interest in the North Somerset Light Railway, the current discussion about Col. Stephens and his various bargain basement aquisitions is particularly intriguing.

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, queensquare said:

with my interest in the North Somerset Light Railway, the current discussion about Col. Stephens and his various bargain basement acquisitions is particularly intriguing.

 

Any fictional light railway, and a good many non-fictional ones, can easily justify a good handful of second-hand D299s after c. 1910.

 

[wagonman]

53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Any fictional light railway, and a good many non-fictional ones, can easily justify a good handful of second-hand D299s after c. 1910.

 

 

There were definitely some D299s on the WC&PR – probably used for loco coal as there was very little merchandise traffic. Col Stephens operated a few small ships up to c1930 so the coal could have come by sea to the jetty at Wick St Lawrence. Coal for the Clevedon Gas works came by rail via the connection at Clevedon. No D299s involved in that traffic!

 

 

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, wagonman said:

There were definitely some D299s on the WC&PR – probably used for loco coal as there was very little merchandise traffic. Col Stephens operated a few small ships up to c1930 so the coal could have come by sea to the jetty at Wick St Lawrence. Coal for the Clevedon Gas works came by rail via the connection at Clevedon. No D299s involved in that traffic!

 

Yes, I had some interesting correspondence with @BWsTrains about the WC&PR ex-Midland stock a while back. They also had some low side wagons, D305. Unfortunately most of the information was in scans of book pages that I failed to download and are now in limbo. The wagons sold to minor railways were not permitted on the main lines, as the minor railways weren't party to the relevant RCH mutual recognition agreements, as I understand. Hence the Clevedon gas works traffic coming in main line company or PO wagons.

[corneliuslundie]

Off piste again, but I spoke too soon. I have just been trying to sort out the dates when the Cambrian abolished Second Class and then reinstated it.

There is a nice quote in the "New History" to the effect that all they needed to do to reinstate Second for local trains was to relabel about 40 compartments Second Class and add mats on the compartment floors (and charge 15% more).

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

There is a delightful album, P. Truman & D. Hunt, Midland Railway Portrait (Foxline, 1989) that I hadn't browsed through for a while. Some may have seen my article on low side goods wagons in the most recent issue of the Midland Railway Society Journal and so know that there is an open question as to when the last Kirtley-era low side wagons were replaced - which I now think would be around 1907 (see part 2 in the next issue of the Journal), but the latest photographic sighting is as "Dirt Wagons" in the background of official portraits of new wagons in the late 1890s.

 

Portrait has a couple of photos of low side wagons in Engineer's Dept service, lettered E D, plates 171 and 172. The former, taken during widening works at Leicester, is one I used in my article. It shows both Kirtley-era low side wagons and early Clayton ones, to Drg. 10, with two-plank ends. The date given is 1891, which is a couple of years earlier than the date I had when I wrote my article. The photo is DY471:

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY 471]

 

The second photo is also at Leicester but c. 1900 according to Truman and Hunt. This shows a line of 14 E D wagons, most of which are Clayton ones, to Drg. 213 and at least one to Drg. 10; the ones nearest the camera have wooden brake blocks. However, there are three that are Kirtley wagons. So it looks as if I could get away with one or two in a ballast train c. 1902, not just dumped round the back of the engine shed!

 

Several - four, possibly five (one is in shade) are noticeably darker than the others. Notwithstanding arguments about the chemical darkening of white lead-based paint, E D wagons usually look quite pale in photos - perhaps the result of dust from ballast - so I am wondering if this is in fact evidence for Engineer's Dept wagons starting to be painted red from around the turn of the century. That would be in agreement with Midland Style but the earliest convincing photo I was previously aware of is one of the series taken at Wigston in 1905. Moreover, one of the Kirtley wagons is among those possibly red...

 

This photo is credited "BR" by Truman and Hunt which probably means it's another Derby official but I've not yet tracked it down in the Derby Registers. It could be one of the series DY4086 - DY4090 depicting new bridges at Welford Road, Fox Street, and Regents Road; it is in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60872]

 

Unfortunately this version has been cropped on the right losing one whole wagon and the end of the one nearest the camera, so its two-plank end can't be seen. The possibly red, definitely Kirtley wagon is second in line from the right.

 

[corneliuslundie]

Not Midland, but I was passed copies of pages from a GWR South Wales wagon register by John Lewis which showed that a large proportion of opens (and timber wagons too) had second lives in Docks or Departmental service after officially being withdrawn. I suspect that most companies did the same but that the records are no longer around to confirm the fact, if they ever existed.

Jonathan

[wagonman]

Arguably the GWR had more docks than most other companies so plenty of scope for wagons to enjoy life after withdrawal.

 

 

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, wagonman said:

Arguably the GWR had more docks than most other companies so plenty of scope for wagons to enjoy life after withdrawal.

 

Many dock companies were independent of railway companies. We've seen above an example of a D299 surviving long past its best-before date in Port of London Authority service; the C&W minutes show that 180 were sold to them in 1920. But only a small minority of old wagons were sold on in this way. From the C&W minutes, perhaps 4,000 old 8-ton wagons, mostly D299 - no more than 7% of the total number built. I do get the impression that the Midland was exceptional in selling off quite so many old wagons in early 20th century - of course it had the second largest wagon fleet, so pro-rata one would expect to find more ex-Midland wagons on the second-hand market than those of any other companies. So I'm wondering if there were particular factors at work? Is there any evidence for other companies selling wagons off to dealers such as Wake in quite such quantities?

 

The vast majority of withdrawn wagons were broken up. Wheels and ironwork were often recycled. As for the wooden parts, there must have been an aftermarket - road paving?

Edited August 1, 2022 by Compound2632
grammar tidy

[corneliuslundie]

While it is on my mind, do those taking part in this thread think there would be a market for an updated version of George Dow's "Midland Style"?

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

19 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

While it is on my mind, do those taking part in this thread think there would be a market for an updated version of George Dow's "Midland Style"?

Jonathan

I for one would buy one.  My copy is nearly falling apart it's had so much use.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

Some years ago Bob Essery and I floated the idea of an updated version of Midland Style using George Dow's work as the basis. We had several others on board for the project and approached Andrew Dow for permission to use his father's material but he refused so the project died.

 

Dave