More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Nick Lawson]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Is that a builder's photo? And if so, which firm?

Probably builder's photo. Neat stack of wagon springs behind. Gleaming white-wall tyres. Looks like a Roberts plate.

[sir douglas]

Definetly a roberts and Would agree its a works photo, evidence around the buffers where the background has been painted out though curiously except the spring piles

[Compound2632]

I'm off to the L&NWR Society's modelling day at the Study Centre at Kenilworth today, despite all I have to show as progress since last year being two cattle wagons and a brake van, all work in progress.

[Rail-Online]

On 06/07/2023 at 19:52, Aire Head said:

I recall an earlier conversation about wagon builders in Bradford and couldn't help but notice these drawings posted on facebook. They may be no use but thought they might be useful for someone.

These drawings look like the ones sold by the LYR society in the 1970s.  I seem to recall there was some doubt as to their accuracy and they dissapeared off the availability list.  The name of J.B Hodgson rings a bell. There were an awful lot of them and I would love to know which ones were accurate and the story behind them.

 

Tony

[moore43grm]

I

8 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

These drawings look like the ones sold by the LYR society in the 1970s

 I have a copy ( photo copy ?) of this publication and it lists alphabetically up to some 500 wagons. If I recall you had to buy the individual wagon sheet you required, yes I have several !

 

[Krusty]

ISTR that John Hodgson was at one time the chairman of the L&YR Society.

[Rail-Online]

Another D299 in LMS livery in a train at Dumfries in 1927.  It retains early grease axleboxes which must be unusual......

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rail-Online
Wrong photo!

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

It retains early grease axleboxes which must be unusual......

 

Yes, this may be the latest date at which I've seen 8A axleboxes.

 

Otherwise it's been modernised with the spring steel door stop and long bang plate on the door.

 

Shame the number can't be read. Begins with a 3?

 

Brighton cattle wagon behind, still lettered LBSC.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

Is there an unclipped version of the photo. Only as as I think the van on the left might be a maryort and Carlisle.

Marc

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

Is there an unclipped version of the photo. Only as as I think the van on the left might be a maryort and Carlisle.

 

Sorry to disappoint, Marc, but what one can see of it is entirely consistent with it being a LBSC cattle wagon of the type that became SR Diagram 1527. Unfortunately I can't find a photo of the real thing on line, so here's one of the Roxey kit:

 

 

[Embedded link to Roxey website.]

 

and the Smallbrook Studios kit:

 

 

[Embedded link to their website.]

 

The gap in the boarding at the height where the diagonal crosses the vertical farming is characteristic. See G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 2: LBSCR and minor companies (OPC, 1985) pp. 34-36. 

 

As to the lettering, the C looks fresh but I think the B and S on the doors can just be made out, though rather faded.

 

What did M&C cattle wagons look like?

 

I've got copies of pages from the Railway Returns covering goods rolling stock for a good range of years but it's a bit pot-luck from year to year which other companies in the L to N range are on the same page. But I can report that at the end of 1920, the LBSC had 441 cattle trucks and the M&C, 46. The Railway Returns only provide a breakdown of wagons by type from 1913 onwards, with the more detailed requirements of the Railway Companies (Accounts and Returns) Act, 1911 and not for 1916-1918. However, the Midland's half-yearly Reports and Accounts to the shareholders' meetings do provide a breakdown, including cattle wagons as a separate item, so one can track cattle wagon numbers down the years. I presume the same information is available for other companies. What has recently occurred to me, and will keep me busy at Kew in due course, is that the half-yearly Reports and Accounts do include the income from cattle traffic and (I believe) the BoT Returns include the head of cattle transported annually, so it should be possible to build up a picture of the company's cattle traffic in relation to the stock of cattle wagons.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

3 hours ago, MarcD said:

Is there an unclipped version of the photo. Only as as I think the van on the left might be a maryort and Carlisle.

Marc

Marc,

Don't get too excited - it is a LBSC cattle wagon!  Not yet on the site.

 

The first van looks interesting though -G&SWR?

 

Cheers Tony

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rail-Online
add photo

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

The first van looks interesting though -G&SWR?

 

I'm no expert on that but the second cattle wagon is LNWR and I think there's another D299, the eleventh wagon. Wagons 7 and 8 carry LMS lettering; 7 is a cupboard-door wagon, so ex-GSWR or ex-CR? No. 6 appear to be of the same type. No. 8 has the diagonal stripe indicating end door (at the far end) but whether pre-group or the D1671 RCH standard type I wouldn't like to say. These open / mineral wagons all look empty but I think I see cattle in the LNWR cattle wagon.

 

Looking at the bars across the top openings on the LBSC cattle wagon, I'm feeling happier about the wonky ones on my two LNWR wagons!

[Rail-Online]

It has been a good day with the old negs!

 

I think this may just be an illusive end door MR 5 plank  -and the number is visible!  Taken at Windermere around 1928.

 

Cheers Tony

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Rail-Online
typo

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

It has been a good day with the old negs!

 

I think this may just be an illusive end door MR 5 plant -and the number is visible!  Taken at Windermere around 1928.

 

Added to the list.

 

Keep 'em coming!

[Grahams]

3 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

It has been a good day with the old negs!

 

I think this may just be an illusive end door MR 5 plant -and the number is visible!  Taken at Windermere around 1928.

 

Cheers Tony

 

 

 

 

And it appears to have a grease axlebox? 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Grahams said:

And it appears to have a grease axlebox? 

 

I think that all D351 wagons were built with Ellis 10A axleboxes - the first lot, lot 244, was placed after the earliest lots that had the 10A boxes (see discussion above, in response to a question from @billbedford) and the last lot was placed a bit before the last D299 lot, and it was only the last of those that got oil axleboxes from new. Midland Wagons plate 112 shows No. 123984 in LMS bauxite livery, with 10A boxes.

[Compound2632]

I've been looking through some Scottish accident reports. Here I find the word "tram" used in itemising damage to wagons; by elimination, I think this is Scots for "solebar"?

 

Examples here, note how "Caledonian Railway" has morphed into "Central Railway"!

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_GlasgowCentral1903.pdf - pages 7 & 8.

[MrWolf]

Tram is derived from an old Germanic word Traam, a length of timber running longitudinal on a barrow or cart, so is likely to refer to solebars I would think.

[Compound2632]

I've had a first pass at applying the Old Time Workshop Great Northern transfers to the Mousa 4-plank open; not yet fully bedded-in and varnsished:

 

 

My principal reference is the photo we've had before:

 

 

I like the G Northern R and the number - well-proportioned - but I'm not very convinced by "LOAD 9 TONS" which is too spindly and modern-looking for a sign-written inscription and also a bit too tall. The number is close to a couple given in LNER Wagons Vol. 1 - 10339 and 10465 - so I'm hoping for the best. It's made up from two parts of complete numbers on the transfer sheet. I then found I'd made a rod or my own back, discovering that the small numbers on the sheet do not repeat the large ones, so 10 comes from a number ending 01, turned upside-down, and 6, 4, and 3 are individually applied - which shows...

 

As far as I can make out from the limited range of photos I've seen, lower-numbered - presumably older - wagons did not have cast numberplates but had G.N.R. and the number on the bottom edge of the solebar (or tram, as Patrick Stirling no doubt called it). Despite the small digits, the sheet doesn't have the small initials. See the cover of this GNR Society publication: https://www.gnrsociety.com/home-page/shop/wp01great-northern-railway-wagons-pictorial-part-1/

 

The other side:

 

for which my principal reference is:

 

 

[Embedded link to photo on Adrian Marks' Basilica Fields website.]

 

The big G N initials just aren't big enough! I'm still unconvinced by the "LOAD 9 TONS" (but compare the cover of the GNR Society book linked above). The number is perhaps a bit bold too. But the number in the photo of 33225 isn't exactly a masterpiece of the signwriter's art!

 

Along with 33225, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 gives 33716 so I'm hoping 33719 is close enough - though I suppose I could rotate the 9!

 

I think I'm going to go rummaging for better LOAD [ ] TONS transfers, at least for the pre-1898 side.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[MarcD]

There is a picture of a late M&C cattle van along with a drawing in the HMRS archive. But as for the early vans no a lot of info out there I have a drawing for a brake van, backed up with a photo and the same with a box van. 

Marc 

[Tricky]

On 08/07/2023 at 08:42, Compound2632 said:

I'm off to the L&NWR Society's modelling day at the Study Centre at Kenilworth today, despite all I have to show as progress since last year being two cattle wagons and a brake van, all work in progress.

Is my signal box still there?

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Tricky said:

Is my signal box still there?

 

Yes, in pride of place among the exhibits!

[Dave Hunt]

19 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Tram is derived from an old Germanic word Traam, a length of timber running longitudinal on a barrow or cart, so is likely to refer to solebars I would think.

 

Hence tramway.

 

Dave

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've had a first pass at applying the Old Time Workshop Great Northern transfers to the Mousa 4-plank open; not yet fully bedded-in and varnsished:

 

 

My principal reference is the photo we've had before:

 

 

I like the G Northern R and the number - well-proportioned - but I'm not very convinced by "LOAD 9 TONS" which is too spindly and modern-looking for a sign-written inscription and also a bit too tall. The number is close to a couple given in LNER Wagons Vol. 1 - 10339 and 10465 - so I'm hoping for the best. It's made up from two parts of complete numbers on the transfer sheet. I then found I'd made a rod or my own back, discovering that the small numbers on the sheet do not repeat the large ones, so 10 comes from a number ending 01, turned upside-down, and 6, 4, and 3 are individually applied - which shows...

 

As far as I can make out from the limited range of photos I've seen, lower-numbered - presumably older - wagons did not have cast numberplates but had G.N.R. and the number on the bottom edge of the solebar (or tram, as Patrick Stirling no doubt called it). Despite the small digits, the sheet doesn't have the small initials. See the cover of this GNR Society publication: https://www.gnrsociety.com/home-page/shop/wp01great-northern-railway-wagons-pictorial-part-1/

 

The other side:

 

for which my principal reference is:

 

 

[Embedded link to photo on Adrian Marks' Basilica Fields website.]

 

The big G N initials just aren't big enough! I'm still unconvinced by the "LOAD 9 TONS" (but compare the cover of the GNR Society book linked above). The number is perhaps a bit bold too. But the number in the photo of 33225 isn't exactly a masterpiece of the signwriter's art!

 

Along with 33225, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 gives 33716 so I'm hoping 33719 is close enough - though I suppose I could rotate the 9!

 

I think I'm going to go rummaging for better LOAD [ ] TONS transfers, at least for the pre-1898 side.

 

Nice work Stephen! I agree about the 'GN' not being quite large enough, though; I would recommend John Peck at Precision Decals who will run off a set at any size you require and is very quick and helpful. Likewise, I wasn't happy with the size of the 'LOAD 10 TONS' for a recent GNR wagon build (the later large 'GN' style) and got a set of those done too.

 

Very interested to see your use of the 'G NORTHERN R' lettering. I have some GNR wagons quite near the front of the build queue with some of those OTR transfers standing by to try, but I've never seen them in use before: I think they look splendid!

Edited July 11, 2023 by Chas Levin

[airnimal]

I built a couple of GNR wagons some years ago and lettered them using some old methfix tranfers. 

I don't have them now but I still have this photograph of one of them.