More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mol_PMB]

As promised yesterday, here are some images of the MSC steel-bodied opens, which I think have some GWR features to them.

I don't know exactly when the MSC acquired these, but judging from the known number 4366 it would be around the time of WWII.

 

This is the best photo, but only partial:

 

There's one just above the bow of the tug here:

 

'Where's Wally?' There are two visible in this aerial photo:

... which are possibly a bit clearer in these zoomed-in views:

 

Another on the right margin here:

 

My model, built from a cut-down ABS iron mink:

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

"confused by the capital C" blame the spell chucker. But yes, the Swansea Wagon Co makes sense. An interesting wagon but a bit early for me.

Amused that Canadian Redwoods are in the news today. We shall all have to add higher backscenes.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

As promised yesterday, here are some images of the MSC steel-bodied opens, which I think have some GWR features to them.

I don't know exactly when the MSC acquired these, but judging from the known number 4366 it would be around the time of WWII.

 

I'm out of my comfort zone here but I've an inkling there were War Department wagons of this type built for service in France? Opens with full-height cupboard doors being a bit of a continental thing? I may be hallucinating, though.

[Mol_PMB]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm out of my comfort zone here but I've an inkling there were War Department wagons of this type built for service in France? Opens with full-height cupboard doors being a bit of a continental thing? I may be hallucinating, though.

Certainly true for WWII, the 16t mineral wagons built for the SNCF. For example:

https://sdjr.co.uk/locomotives-stock/sncf-mineral-wagon-b192437

 

The MSC wagons are smaller and lower, and the style of the label clip suggests that they were built much earlier than WWII.

Do we know when the later style of sprung label clip came into use - PO wagons built from the 1920s onwards seem to have them.

The iron underframe with the circular hole in it reminded me of the GWR but may have been used on other vehicles too.

 

A list of WD wagons used on the continent in WWI is included in an atricle by C.E.R Sherrington in the March 1933 'Railway Magazine'. @sir douglas has recently photographed the original articles for me, and the relevant page is below. This list has also been reproduced in the book 'British Military Railways Overseas in the Great War' although it should be noted that some formatting errors crept into the book. A corrigenda has also been published with a corrected version of the list which appears consistent with the original 1933 article:

 

Some of the French railways did not permit wagons with grease boxes, hence why this is an important criterion in the listing.

From this list, there were two batches of low-capacity (12t) opens built for the WD without brake cabin (vigie); these are as follows:

• WD 1-5000 12t open, oil boxes
• WD 80001-83000 12t open, oil boxes

Other WD opens were larger 20t vehicles, or had brake cabins.

It's possible that some of these were iron/steel bodied, but there is no mention of this in the listings.

 

Of course the WD did use wagons in other theatres of war, and for example there is this information given in the book 'British Military Railways Overseas in the Great War' relating to WD wagons in Palestine. However, little or none of this stock returned to the UK post-war.

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

A list of WD wagons used on the continent in WWI is included in an atricle by C.E.R Sherrington in the March 1933 'Railway Magazine'.

 

We had this article upthread, in the context of discussion of "pill box" wagon conversions - LNWR, GCR, GWR, and Midland opens given gable roofs with lifting hatches, but we didn't at that point discuss wagons built directly for the WD. It's also been discussed in the context of various Rapido wagons produced in WD livery. It seems to be the most widely-cited source for the subject bu I do wonder what primary sources survive - maybe lurking in boxes at the National Archives?

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6189863

Edited March 13 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

Morning all, 

 

I have a couple of possibly Midland Railway wagons that I could do with a learned mind to help identify please. 

 

The first photo (copyright the Furness Railway Trust collection, used with permission) shows Furness Railway Number 4, one of the locos purchased for the opening of the line in 1846 and latterly used for shunting before withdrawal in 1898.  Sister No 3 had hauled the very first train on the FR so was preserved (now at the NRM York).   The location is believed to be near Ramsden Dock station in Barrow. 

 

It is the first cattle wagon that I believe could well be MR.   The next two are definitely FR wagons with the X bracing on the sides.  The nearer one of the two FR ones is almost definitely an FR medium cattle wagon (what was classed as D46 in the diagram book prepared by the FR in c 1922 for the incoming LMS administration).   Can anyone provide any more identification of the first cattle wagon please?

 

 

Secondly a crop of a one of the Sankey Collection images which are copyright Cumbria Archives - they are happy for such images to be shared with suitable attribution.  See https://www.sankeyphotoarchive.uk/collection/search/?searchText=59 for the new scan of this plate. 

 

My question relates to the van seen in front of the three road FR Barrow goods warehouse.  It has twin louvres running most of the height of the ends.  I had wondered about a MR D379 meat van, but the drawings and photos in Essery Vol 1 show these had twin louvres on the ends that were both split with a plain panel two thirds of the way up the ends, rather than being continuous as appears to be the case here.  This van does have appear to have a vacuum brake swan neck visible above the headstock, in case that helps at all?    Any thoughts?

 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

It is the first cattle wagon that I believe could well be MR.   The next two are definitely FR wagons with the X bracing on the sides.  The nearer one of the two FR ones is almost definitely an FR medium cattle wagon (what was classed as D46 in the diagram book prepared by the FR in c 1922 for the incoming LMS administration).   Can anyone provide any more identification of the first cattle wagon please?

 

Yes, that's a Midland cattle wagon. With 8A axleboxes, wooden brake blocks and long brake lever, it looks like one of the large ones to Drg. 101, built either by Gloucester in 1875 or lots 30, 45, and possibly 63.

 

35 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

My question relates to the van seen in front of the three road FR Barrow goods warehouse.  It has twin louvres running most of the height of the ends.  I had wondered about a MR D379 meat van, but the drawings and photos in Essery Vol 1 show these had twin louvres on the ends that were both split with a plain panel two thirds of the way up the ends, rather than being continuous as appears to be the case here.  This van does have appear to have a vacuum brake swan neck visible above the headstock, in case that helps at all?    Any thoughts?

 

I don't think it is a D379 meat van; agreeing with you about the ends, also the doors look as if they might be plain panelled, though with louvres in the sides either side of the doors. Other Midland passenger-style vans with end louvres have them arranged per the meat van. also, the width and position of the louvres suggests six end panels rather than five. 

[billbedford]

57 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

My question relates to the van seen in front of the three road FR Barrow goods warehouse. 

 

Can you explain how the sidings to the goods shed worked?

[jamie92208]

4 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Can you explain how the sidings to the goods shed worked?

Looking at it, I think that all the three doors have two roads leading into them.  The  shed is wide enough for 6 platforms for road vehicles. Each  bay is fed from two interlaced points that split after leaving the main entrance road.  I may have got some of the terminology wrong. 

 

Jamie

Edited March 15 by jamie92208

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, that's a Midland cattle wagon. With 8A axleboxes, wooden brake blocks and long brake lever, it looks like one of the large ones to Drg. 101, built either by Gloucester in 1875 or lots 30, 45, and possibly 63.

 

Thank you Stephen. 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't think it is a D379 meat van; agreeing with you about the ends, also the doors look as if they might be plain panelled, though with louvres in the sides either side of the doors. Other Midland passenger-style vans with end louvres have them arranged per the meat van. also, the width and position of the louvres suggests six end panels rather than five. 

 

Thanks again.  So would I be right in thinking the conclusion here is that this does not appear to be a MR vehicle?

 

If so can we start the bidding as to whose it might be?

 

 

[WFPettigrew]

45 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Can you explain how the sidings to the goods shed worked?

 

Well Bill, Jamie is half way there:

 

18 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I think that all the three doors have two roads leading I to the,.  The  shed is wide enough for 6 platforms for road vehicles. Each  bay is fed from two interlaced points that split after leaving g the main entrance road.

 

The rest of the picture can be seen on the 25" map reproduced with the permission of the National Library of Scotland (Creative Commons Attribution (CC-BY) licence).

 

 

 

 

This shows that there were 3 pairs of rail lines going into the south east end of the building.  That is the view that we have here.   The rail lines terminated inside the shed, and there was road access into the north west end through two more large arched doorways in the outer two bays, with offices occupying the centre. .

 

So this was used for the transfer between road and rail.   Off the map to the SE were two transit sheds which did not have road access, and the "goods depot and bonded warehouse", which also did not have road access but did border Devonshire Dock, and this latter was used for transhipment with shipping and the storage of incoming bonded goods.

 

The goods warehouse building still survives - and can be seen on Google Streetview from the nearby road into what is now the Tesco superstore:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.1123154,-3.2365406,3a,75y,152.33h,103.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s55y5_eRYz75HnQwvxR9vwQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

Hope that makes sense?

 

Best wishes

 

Neil 

 

https://maps.app.goo.gl/EUoa7D4m998FygHX6

 

 

[billbedford]

Yes, I get all that, but why the gauntletted pointwork?

Edited March 15 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Yes, I get all that, but why the gauntletted pointwork?

 

Pairs of tandem points - not unusual in goods yards. With the angle the access line makes to the goods shed lines, laying in a curve of not-to-tight radius inevitably results in the overlap seen here. The Midland way of doing this was to use genuine three-way points, as here at Toton (Chilwell Sidings), looking at the fans to the left and right, rather than the central lines:

 

 

[Embedded link to MRS 88-2015-0648, DY9219.]

[Andy Vincent]

At the risk of pre-empting @Compound2632's next instalment in MRS Journal, is there any pattern to whether a D299 (or D351 and perhaps others) had a long brake lever (with lever guard outside of right-hand axle) or a short brake lever (with guard inside right-hand axle) - and did they keep whichever they were allocated until they were scrapped?

Edited March 15 by Andy Vincent
Added clarity on definition of long and short!

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, billbedford said:

gauntletted pointwork?

 

As Stephen said, they are tandems but with both roads diverging off a straight due to the geometry. I also suspect that this arrangement maximised the length of each siding.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

At the risk of pre-empting @Compound2632's next instalment in MRS Journal, is there any pattern to whether a D299 (or D351 and perhaps others) had a long brake lever or a short brake lever - and did they keep whichever they were allocated until they were scrapped?

 

I've done with highsided wagons for the Journal. The next articles will be on timber wagons and then cattle wagons; then I will gird up my loins to tackle covered goods wagons, DV.

 

With the exception of the two late lots, Lots 632 (1905) and Lot 919 (1917), all 8-ton highside goods and coal wagons to Drgs. 550 and 790, i.e. D299 and D351, along with related types using the same design of underframe, were built with brakes on one side only, with short brake lever. 

 

On the single evidence of Plate 112 in Midland Wagons, some late survivors were fitted with a second set of brakes and in this instance, the short lever was used - maybe recycling material from a scrapped wagon. But I think this was rather exceptional and am fairly sure the vast majority were withdrawn with the breakgear they were built with, with no additions or substitutions. 

 

Lot 919 conformed to the standard practice of the time they were built with independent brakes on both sides, with long lever. Lot 632 would probably also have been built with both side brakes but with short lever.

 

The situation is rather more complicated for lowside wagons, D305; for these see my article in Midland Railway Society Journal No. 79 (Summer 2022).

Edited March 15 by Compound2632

[Andy Vincent]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The situation is rather more complicated for lowside wagons, D305; for these see my article in Midland Railway Society Journal No. 79 (Summer 2022).

Time to reach for the MRS back numbers service then as someone quite late to the cause!

[Rail-Online]

On 15/03/2024 at 12:44, WFPettigrew said:

 

Thank you Stephen. 

 

 

Thanks again.  So would I be right in thinking the conclusion here is that this does not appear to be a MR vehicle?

 

If so can we start the bidding as to whose it might be?

 

 

I have a vague recollection that a G&SWR NPCS vehicle featured in a drawing/article in Model Railways had twin verticle end louvres just like that..........

 

Tony

[Nick Lawson]

On 12/03/2024 at 11:35, Compound2632 said:

The sources I've found for Clayton's early career are inconsistent

May I offer a quick trawl through census returns:

1841 Madeley, Salop. Age 10

1851 Madeley, Salop, 20 Pattern Maker. (His father was an Iron founder)

1861 Wolverhampton, 30 Pattern Maker

1871 Highworth Swindon, 40 Locomotive & Carriage Engineer

1881, Derby 50, Civil Engineer

1891, Normanton, 60, Civil Engineer Midland Railway

1901, Normanton, 70.  Manager Railway Engine Works (Civil Engineer)

1911, Normanton, 80, Gentleman.

 

The 1901 entry also lists two engineer sons who had followed their dad into the railway works.

 

("Gentleman" just indicated living on own income. I had a 19th century "gentleman" ancestor who was a retired publican).

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

May I offer a quick trawl through census returns:

1841 Madeley, Salop. Age 10

1851 Madeley, Salop, 20 Pattern Maker. (His father was an Iron founder)

1861 Wolverhampton, 30 Pattern Maker

1871 Highworth Swindon, 40 Locomotive & Carriage Engineer

1881, Derby 50, Civil Engineer

1891, Normanton, 60, Civil Engineer Midland Railway

1901, Normanton, 70.  Manager Railway Engine Works (Civil Engineer)

1911, Normanton, 80, Gentleman.

 

The 1901 entry also lists two engineer sons who had followed their dad into the railway works.

 

("Gentleman" just indicated living on own income. I had a 19th century "gentleman" ancestor who was a retired publican).

 

Thanks for this - it seems to fit with the rest and certainly suggests that he was at Wolverhampton under Joseph Armstrong by 1861. The 1850s are still a mystery though.

 

Normanton here is the suburb of Derby - about 15 minutes' walk from the Litchurch Lane Carriage & Wagon Works - not Normanton the village between Wakefield and Castleford. The latter's claim to fame is as the junction between the North Midland, Manchester & Leeds, and York & North Midland Railways - in due course MR, L&YR, and NER - and dining stop for the Midland Scotch expresses before 1893.

[Nick Lawson]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The 1850s are still a mystery though

His first marriage, in 1854, was in Bridgenorth - 10 miles south of Madeley. I can't see a newspaper announcement of this event, which might have indicated where he was living at the time. I did find this item though, from 1862:

 

[Andy Vincent]

1 hour ago, Nick Lawson said:

I did find this item though, from 1862

A little before the time span of the work being undertaken at Portsmouth University to document all railway worker accidents in Britain and Ireland from the late 1880s to 1939. This is a collaboration between very many groups including the NRM and HMRS. Details at https://www.railwayaccidents.port.ac.uk/ for anyone not familiar with the project.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

I did find this item though, from 1862:

 

Do you have the reference for this item?

[Nick Lawson]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Do you have the reference for this item?

Oh sorry, remiss of me:
 

13 Aug 1862

Wolverhampton Chronicle & Staffordshire Advertiser

Page 4, column 5 about 2/3 of the way down.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

13 Aug 1862

Wolverhampton Chronicle & Staffordshire Advertiser

Page 4, column 5 about 2/3 of the way down.

 

Many thanks. Salted away for future reference! Any issue in re-posting it to the Midland Railway Society email group etc.?