More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[41516]

14 hours ago, 65179 said:

I'm slightly confused by what looks to be an M prefix to the number.

 

The M360xxx series was a bit of a catch-all for ex-MoS 5 planks, SR type brake vans and others.  I can't find a (Larkin?) book that lists them out at the moment.

 

Edit -  It's in Acquired Wagons Vol1, which has a table of numbers and previous owners. "Certain wagons from private companies and others from government bodies other than the Ministry of Transport were not in the original 'pooled' fleet and did not receieved (sic) 'P'-prefixed numbers. Instead they received numbers in the M360xxx range"

Edited March 25 by 41516

[Mol_PMB]

I think these would be in Volume 6, the new one (which I haven't bought yet).

 

I suspect that this one (seen sandwiched between two newish 16t minerals, on a line with overhead electrification) also escaped pooling may have ended up in the same list if it survived that long:

[65179]

33 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think these would be in Volume 6, the new one (which I haven't bought yet).

 

I suspect that this one (seen sandwiched between two newish 16t minerals, on a line with overhead electrification) also escaped pooling may have ended up in the same list if it survived that long:

 

It was the suggested arrival of Vol 6 of the Larkin series, and assembling a ca.1950 coal train, that got me thinking about these ex-PO wagons that made it to BR days - still numerous, but largely unphotographed and certainly underrepresented in model form. 

 

Volume 6 is advertised as out in May.

 

Simon

[Mark Saunders]

The Ship Canal Sand Company wagons remained PO till withdrawal in the same way that the Pilkington ones did.

Edited March 25 by Mark Saunders
missing part of company name

[Mol_PMB]

32 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

The Ship Canal Sand Company wagons remained PO till withdrawal in the same way that the Pilkington ones did.

Thanks Mark, that's interesting. Do you know roughly when they were withdrawn? I appreciate that the one illustrated above is an early example and that later Ship Canal Sand Company wagons may have been more conventional RCH types.

[Mark Saunders]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thanks Mark, that's interesting. Do you know roughly when they were withdrawn? I appreciate that the one illustrated above is an early example and that later Ship Canal Sand Company wagons may have been more conventional RCH types.

 

Alas no but I suspect that it was a fleet that didn't go far and probably just quietly disappeared! 

[Mark Saunders]

3 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

The Ship Canal Sand Company wagons remained PO till withdrawal in the same way that the Pilkington ones did.

I have had a look at the photo and it isn't one of the non pool wagons as it had end doors while the NP ones had no doors numbers 50-61. info in the RCH Non Pool registered wagons book.

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

I have had a look at the photo and it isn't one of the non pool wagons as it had end doors while the NP ones had no doors numbers 50-61. info in the RCH Non Pool registered wagons book.

Interesting, thank you. Turton volume 14 (from where I filched that photo) notes that their later acquisitions were 7-plank 12-ton 'mineral' wagons with side, end and bottom doors. Nos 50 to 55 were supplied by L&Y Wagon Co (Heywood) in 1934, registered LMS 128793-8. Nos 56 to 61 followed in 1937, registered LMS 145101-6. Perhaps the doors (if they actually existed in the first place) were quickly sealed to prevent leaks, making these exempt from pooling. Or they may actually have been built without doors like the Pilkington's sand wagons.

 

The Ship Canal Sand Co was incorporated in 1912 and wagon No 12 in the photo looks to be of that vintage.

The photo of No 12 is undated. With unfitted 16t minerals in what looks like bauxite livery each side, I'm guessing 1940s. Four parallel lines in the background are electrified with compound catenary, but no masts or insulators are visible. A location on the MSJ&A seems most likely, but it could be a few years later on one of the routes wired under the Woodhead scheme. I don't imagine this wagon survived until 1960 for 25kV to reach Manchester.

[Mol_PMB]

While we're on the topic of companies which borrowed the name of their local transport artery, the Ship Canal Portland Cement Manufacturers Ltd was an entirely separate firm based in Ellesmere Port.

 

This is my photo of part of an old photo displayed at Ellesmere Port boat museum; I don't know its origins and I haven't seen any other photos of this firm's wagons. I wish now I'd taken a photo of the whole image, but I'm pretty sure it was taken at Ellesmere Port.

What do you make of the wagon on the left with a number ending in 38? Looks damaged to me, but still in use at least on the dockside.

Presumably those casks are full of cement?

 

Some other ephemera:

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

What do you make of the wagon on the left with a number ending in 38? Looks damaged to me, but still in use at least on the dockside.

 

Looks to me to be dumb-buffered; I'd say it's an old mineral wagon that has been stripped down to the cant rails to make a flat wagon, with just a couple of end boards left, rather raggedly, to restrain the load.

[57xx]

On 21/03/2024 at 10:57, WFPettigrew said:

Signwriter having a bad day?!

 

 

Three Old Silkstone wagons on the quayside in Barrow almost certainly about to discharge loads of bunker coal into the SS Lachawana.  But have a look at the middle wagon.  As well as the rather glaring typo (did they not have spellcheck?!) the word "STEAM" has been rather too spread out, forcing "COAL" to be crammed in.   Not the signwriter's finest hour... 

 

Note that they have very closely spaced numbers, 1807, 1810 and 1817, which strongly suggests that they are brand new, having been delivered new to one of the three collieries run by the company near Barnsley, and are on their first trip out with a load.  The photo is likely to be about 1910, from logs of the shipping in Barrow Docks.

 

Also - given interest in this upthread, note all three wagons have white rims on their wheels... 

 

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to the number of planks?  I think they are 7 pl with end doors (on the far end of each as we view them) but would welcome thoughts. 

 

 

 

Maybe the middle one was done by an apprentice. As well as poor letter spacing on most of the words and a missing letter, the letter styles differ in several places. Actually, on closer inspection, I think all 3 were lettered by different people.

[billbedford]

It's likely, a Friday afternoon paint job after a liquid lunch. 

[corneliuslundie]

But that justifies my wagon for the fictional colliery where the lettering is differently spaced and arranged on each side - because I messed up the spacing on the first side and didn't have enough of the relevant letters to redo it.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

Some kit-building...

 

Historical modelling, in fact. A pair of LNWR D4 opens from Ratio kits:

 

 

The history of the Ratio LNWR wagon kits was discussed way upthread.

 

On the left, off-white body and floor mouldings and black underframe mouldings, an early example - kit ref. 752, LNWR 4 plank & 2 plank, with instructions for all three of the original pairs of wagons, 751, 1 plank and ballast/dropside wagon, and 753, loco coal and traffic coal, all illustrated in LNWR livery, and with Pressfix transfers. The body mouldings come on a pair of sprues each of which have the one side and one end for each wagon. (I've built the diagram D2 2 plank wagon bar the wooden brake block, which I have yet to make.)

 

On the right, grey body moulding, brown floor moulding, and buff underframe moulding, a later issue, as kit ref, 576, LMS traffic coal/4 plank wagon set, with instructions for these only, the colour photograph showing early LMS livery, and with waterslide transfers. There are four body moulding sprues, each with a side and end - one can see that these are simply half-sprues from the two kits. What, one wonders, became of the moulds for the other half of each, for the 2 plank and loco coal wagons?

 

The latest issue,* under the Parkside by Peco label, as kit ref PC576, is substantially the same as this, with the same colour mouldings, but instructions in which the colour photo is reproduced in monochrome. Somewhere along the line the original transfer artwork has been lost; the kit now comes with a waterside transfer sheet with lettering of what looks to be the "nearest computer font" - which shows, most obviously in the different thicknesses of verticals and horizontals.

 

*Or at least, as bought a couple of years ago.

 

The 4 plank wagon can be built as diagram D4 or D9 depending on choice of axleboxes and brake gear, though I think the original choice of the carriage-type oil axleboxes was a bit eccentric, as the flat-fronted type appear to have been much more common. For the wagon from the early kit, I've adapted these axlebox mouldings to resemble the round-bottomed grease type, since I'd used those on the D2 2 plank, with fronts fabricated from Evergreen strip. The kit box contained a bag with Alan Gibson wheels (plain spoke - into the wheel store, split-spoke being used) and blackened buffer heads, which I used, and another bag with unblackened brass heads, which went into the buffer store. They came out again, as I found no buffers in the later kit... Both kits were second-hand and I'm uncertain what wheels were originally supplied.

 

The "traffic coal" half of the second kit, representing the 10-ton diagram D54, is scheduled for cutting down and shortening to make another 15 ft 8-ton D53.

[Compound2632]

It might be worth mentioning how I fit the bearings. With a 2 mm dia bit, I drill out the plastic bearing from the rear face of the moulding and cut away any excess from the front. The MJT shouldered bearings won't quite go through this hole until a dab of MekPak is applied, so one ends up with a nice tight fit. I leave the moulded rim on the inside of the axleguard; this puts the bearings in just the right position for a splay-free snug fit to the Alan Gibson pin-point axles:

 

 

 

The axlebox mouldings are a snug fit over the bearings.

Edited March 26 by Compound2632
typo.

[Compound2632]

Another Facebook photo from the depths of LNWR territory, Friezland on the Micklehurst loop line:

 

 

[https://www.facebook.com/groups/109619289726001]

 

This station closed to passengers on 1 Jan 1917

[http://disused-stations.org.uk/f/friezland/index.shtml].

There's a L&Y long open wagon, just to the left of the passenger carriages; these, along with the large LY lettering, were introduced in 1903, so the photo presumably dates from sometime in the decade before the Great War.

 

The point of reposting this here is that on one of the rear lines there is a rake of four Midland D299 opens, all loaded about 2/3rds full with something light coloured, which might be bricks or possibly limestone - both of which, being denser than coal, would overload the wagon if loaded to the rave. I suspect limestone since further along the same line are what look from their light tone to be PO lime wagons, the nearest of which has dumb buffers (which helps confirm that the photo is pre-Great War).

[jamie92208]

The lime at  Friezeland must have been inbound, probably fir farmers, it's all grits tone there so probably from one of the Dales or Skipton quarries. 

 

Jamie

[41516]

On 26/03/2024 at 09:25, Compound2632 said:

A pair of LNWR D4 opens from Ratio kits

 

Will you be adding the tie down rings to the headstocks?..

 

I have a D4 to finish, but all of the buffer shanks were hopelessly damaged. I'm hoping ModelStock, who have taken over the 4mm ABS range will have the 3-bolt LNWR buffers available at some point. Unless there is another source currently available in 4mm?

Edited March 27 by 41516

[Compound2632]

More Wessery: the two whitemetal LNWR cattle wagon kits that a started after ExpoEM last May have been looking at me accusingly for some time. The small wagon, diagram D20, is the London Road Models kit; the medium, diagram D21, a second-hand D&S kit. After close study of LNWR Wagons Vol. 1, they have gained identities, as Nos. 46786 and 15223 respectively:

 

 

The numberplates are home made, the numbers on the ends are Pressfix from an old Ratio transfer sheet, the diamonds are rub-down from Coast Line Models - I'm not sure Alan @Quarryscapes has these available at present - and the tare weights are from the Slaters waterslide transfer sheet that comes with their Midland wagon kits - there are a couple of tares that are spot on! This is what is called mixed media modelling.

 

I was all set to get lime-washing but found my tin of Humbrol No. 34 had gone solid. (The white areas on the D21 are primer!) I have endless trouble with Humbrol Nos. 33 and 34, matt black and matt white, though other Humbrol matt colours are entirely satisfactory. 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, 41516 said:

Will you be adding the tie down rings to the headstocks?..

 

How would you suggest doing those in 4 mm scale?

[Dave Hunt]

56 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

How would you suggest doing those in 4 mm scale?

Carefully.

 

Dave

 

PS I have the same trouble with Humbrol’s matt white and black. I’ve found Revell’s versions better.

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

How would you suggest doing those in 4 mm scale?

Like this?

 

 

 

Found in the detritus on my bench, other sizes may be available. 

 

 

[Dave John]

They look nice Bill.

 

However, following the CR tradition of not spending money if you don't need to copper wire and accurate soldering works:

 

 

 

Heading into retirement I find I have a bit shy of a half a mile of cat 5 cable in store. Thats a lot of tiedowns..... 

[Compound2632]

14 hours ago, 41516 said:

Will you be adding the tie down rings to the headstocks?..

 

Some fine plastic rod - Slater's, bought late 1980s, I think, and finally finding a use, wound tightly round a 0.65 mm drill bit and held under a hot tap for as long as fingers could stand, then loops sliced off the resulting coil, not always with perfect 360° accuracy:

 

 

Unlike Bill's 3D print, non functional, and lacking the eyebolts securing them to the headstock, but at least comparable to the moulded versions on some plastic kits.

[WFPettigrew]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

How would you suggest doing those in 4 mm scale?

 

I have just tried using 5A fuse wire wound round a 0.7mm drill then split off using a scalpel held at a diagonal across the line of the drill.  They were then flattened and the gap closed up and glued onto the solebar. Please excuse the somewhat out of focus shot and the cruel enlargement - this one looks circular when seen on the actual wagon.   The latter is a first scratchbuild of a FR D15 two plank that was urgently needed to serve as a test bed for the trial prints and etches of some new products being developed by a friend, more on which hopefully in the future.  The brass here is from the Mainly Trains etch and the W irons are Bill Bedford ones. 

 

 

I would certainly go smaller next time as these are rather overscale for the FR examples, and I will try and follow @Dave John's example and add the securing staples and hopefully generally do a much neater job.... Here's hoping anyway!

 

All the best 

 

Neil