More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Not OT - see the latter half of my post above, re. Ocean Coal Co. wagons. I was indebted to my elder son, who has a side-line in linguistics, for an explanation of how to pronounce Ynysybwl.

 

There will be two Powside "OCEAN" kits for sale at the Scalefour North Bring and Buy this weekend, plus other Powsides , David Geen and other brand pre-group kits this coming weekend.

[Mikkel]

I'm taking a selection of my Midland wagon models of various vintages to the Midland Railway Society AGM this Saturday:

 

Midland sidings.JPG

 

I really do need to apply my recently-acquired confidence in weathering and also get round to more loads!

 

[snip]

 

Good to see the wagons together, I do like the S&DJR Open.

 

Missing loads are my bad conscience too. I don't even notice that my wagons are empty anymore - just like those things around the house that need fixing 

[Compound2632]

Good to see the wagons together, 

 

I should set up a LNWR "class photo" too!

[John_Miles]

For yet another example of D299 in action, see the latest Backtrack, page 308, Harold Wood (place not a person), GER, 1911.

[Compound2632]

For yet another example of D299 in action, see the latest Backtrack, page 308, Harold Wood (place not a person), GER, 1911.

 

Rather a good photo of a pair in the latest Midland Railway Society Journal too.

 

I finally bought your Swansea Vale book at the Midland Railway Society AGM - quite a few in there too, including the full version of that marvelous view of Ynisygeinon Sidings that was discussed some time ago re. sheet rails - I take it that's your £90 NRM photo. I'm also much intrigued by the photo of Gurnos on pp. 140-141, which apart from numerous D299 and a stores dept. rail wagon, has a brake-van like vehicle that I've yet to identify.

 

EDIT: I had another think and I'm sure it's a Kirtley brake van. The usual photos of these are from views of Derby in the 1880s, so without the 18" M R lettering, so it's disconcerting to see one with the lettering - which is offset because the double doors are at one end, The wagon with sheet rail next to the Gurnos wagon is, I think, a Great Western diagram O4 - of which more anon.

 

EDIt again: Have you noticed that it's the same brake van - LMS No. 32406 - in the photos of 0-6-0Ts 1725 and 7259 on pp. 178-179? To be noticing such things, I think I must have drunk too much NSW white with my sea bass this evening (Yarrunga Field 2017, particularly recommended for the aforementioned fish)..

Edited April 21, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Sorting through my stock of Midland wagons to take to the AGM, I came across a couple of D299 wagons made not from the Slater’s kit but as a teenage economy measure, by scratchbuilding bodies on Slater’s undeframes – the latter were available as a separate item; I have another half-dozen or so of these in stock, from an ebay purchase last year. The bodies aren’t very sophisticated:

 

 

The high-level false floor has stopped the sides bowing in for three decades! I probably had in mind putting a sheet or tarpaulin on, judging by the fact that I hadn’t lettered the sides.

 

I’ve taken my inspiration from this photo from the Disused Stations website:

 

 

This is Aldridge on the Wolverhampton, Walsall and Water Orton line, early in the twentieth century. It’s about as prosaic and unglamorous Midland Railway location as one could want but this view is just bursting with interest. We’re looking towards Walsall with the branch to Walsall Wood branch to Brownhills and the Cannock Chase coalfield on the right. The importance of the coal traffic from the Chase is emphasised by the double junction with that alleged Midland rarity, a facing point – note the boarding covering the facing point lock mechanism, complete with ramps to keep any accidentally dangling bits from causing mayhem.

 

This is a posed view, going by the group on the signal box steps and both engines being, apparently, stationary. Coming off the branch is a Kirtley double-framed 0-6-0 as rebuilt by Johnson – one of the earlier straight-framed variety of which Birmingham had a good few still in 1902. On the down main is one of Johnson’s own standard 0-6-0s, of which Birmingham had 71 in 1902. Judging by the large 3,250 gallon tender it’s a relatively new one: Nos. 2334-2358 of the Neilson batch of 1897 and the last batches from Kitson and Sharp, Stewart, Nos. 2641-2680 were all at Birmingham in 1902 [s. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005)]. These engines would be spread around the Birmingham sheds; of course Saltley would have had the majority but a good few would have been at Walsall.

 

The Johnson engine is shunting a couple of wagons, although where from and to is a bit of a puzzle. The OS 25” map shows that all the sidings were on the up side, with the goods yard and shed being off the branch rather than the main line. If the wagons have just been detached from a down train, the engine must be working its train tender first. The wagon nearest the engine is a Great Western five-plank wagon to their diagram O4 – the cast plates for the number and company initials can be clearly seen. The sheet bar must be folded down on the side away from us. The load appears to be earthenware pipes.

 

The nearer wagon is of course a Midland 5-plank open to D299. It has Ellis 10A axleboxes and, I think, the additional vertical ironwork between the end pillars. It’s sheeted, which is of course the point of immediate interest. Note how the sheet hangs slack at the sides, like a tablecloth. The load must be up to the level of the wagon sides; it doesn’t look as if the sheet tie ropes are under much tension. The three securing tags along the first seam are quite clearly visible.

 

Here’s my first attempt at reproducing this, using a sheet from Tom Petith’s Wagonsheets range:

 

 

The lugs at the sides of the axleboxes were trimmed back (see post #399) and the visible edges of the axleguards thinned by careful skrawking. I have to apologise that didn’t replace the solid brake safety straps with microstrip this time. This model was made before I was aware that Slater's had put the numberplate in the wrong place; I've not dealt with that either, I'm afraid.

 

The next step was to weight the wagon. A piece of 1.5 mm thick lead flashing (Wickes) was cut to fit on top of the false floor; to bring the load level right up to the top of the sides, three pieces of self-adhesive lead strip (Eileen’s Emporium) were added (shown in the first photo). Fortuitously, this brought the mass up to exactly 50 g, as recommended by the best authorities.

 

Sixteen pieces of cotton thread were glued to the sheet to represent the tie ropes. The sheet was folded over the wagon and the tie ropes on the long sides glued to the underside of the solebars, starting with the middle rope on each side. In reality these would be secured to cleats or rings but I hope this looks reasonably like what can be seen in the Aldridge photo. It was quite fiddly to thread round the back of the brake lever and then through the axleguard! Next, I glued the ropes in the middle of each end, with a dab of glue under the sheet too, to keep it flat to the body and emphasise the end pillars, as seen in the Aldridge photo. I worked round each corner, trying to produce the “tablecloth” folds and glue the ropes in place appropriately. I’ve tried to emphasise the way the sheet hangs round the end pillars.

 

Finally, I weathered the wagon with the usual mix of Humbrol 33 and 201. (I still haven’t got the Humbrol Metalcote black Jonathan Wealleans recommends – is it in production? It doesn’t seem to be on the current Humbrol Wallchart.) I also weathered the sheet to tone down the white lettering and yellow edging – a finger was the best tool here.

 

Comparing the model with the Aldridge photo, it’s immediately obvious that the sheet hangs down too far both at the sides and ends. In the photo, it hangs down as far as the top of the side or curb rail, on my model, it’s level with the bottom of the side rail. The sheet is 83 mm by 57 mm, scale 20’9” by 14’3”. The dimensions quoted in Midland Wagons are 21’ by 14’4”. From the dimensions of a D299 wagon, the sheet in the photo must be around 20’ by 13’6”, assuming it doesn’t hang down much more on the side and end we can’t see. Did sheets get larger at some point in the very late pre-grouping period, when 16’6”-long wagons started to become commonplace? There’s no sign of lettering on the Aldridge sheet, apart from “21” chalked on the end, but nevertheless I’m not entirely convinced by the yellow border on these sheets. The standard works tell us it should be there (yellow or orange) but I’ve yet to see any sign of it in a photo. I’m tempted to trimm off 1.5 mm all round for my next attempt.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[chrisf]

There will be two Powside "OCEAN" kits for sale at the Scalefour North Bring and Buy this weekend, plus other Powsides , David Geen and other brand pre-group kits this coming weekend.

 

Rest assured that one of the Oceans has gone to a good home.

 

Chris

[Spitfire2865]

There was an early and late pregrouping tarp for most companies. The later design had a spash of colour removed for simplicity.

Cant recall what the Midland did though.

[John_Miles]

Rather a good photo of a pair in the latest Midland Railway Society Journal too.

 

I finally bought your Swansea Vale book at the Midland Railway Society AGM - quite a few in there too, including the full version of that marvelous view of Ynisygeinon Sidings that was discussed some time ago re. sheet rails - I take it that's your £90 NRM photo. I'm also much intrigued by the photo of Gurnos on pp. 140-141, which apart from numerous D299 and a stores dept. rail wagon, has a brake-van like vehicle that I've yet to identify.

 

EDIT: I had another think and I'm sure it's a Kirtley brake van. The usual photos of these are from views of Derby in the 1880s, so without the 18" M R lettering, so it's disconcerting to see one with the lettering - which is offset because the double doors are at one end, The wagon with sheet rail next to the Gurnos wagon is, I think, a Great Western diagram O4 - of which more anon.

 

EDIt again: Have you noticed that it's the same brake van - LMS No. 32406 - in the photos of 0-6-0Ts 1725 and 7259 on pp. 178-179? To be noticing such things, I think I must have drunk too much NSW white with my sea bass this evening (Yarrunga Field 2017, particularly recommended for the aforementioned fish)..

 

The £90 photo is the one near the front taken around 1857. The greedy organisation was the National Library of Wales. They have another really nice photo of the original bridge over the Tawe which we decided we just couldn't afford The NRM photos were expensive but much cheaper. I think the reproduction fee was £23 per image. The best organisation was the HMRS (£5) closely followed by genuine enthusiasts such as Roger Carpenter, the Blencowes and Kidderminster Museum. I'm now off to look at that Kirtley brake van - I missed that one. I'm a NZ Sauvignon Blanc man if I drink wine although as Penlan will confirm I prefer beer.

Edited April 22, 2018 by John_Miles

[John_Miles]

I just was press ganged into doing some gardening which delayed my perusal of the photo of the brake van. It's not as clear as one would wish but it does look like a Kirtley Brake. The line of wagons in the centre of the view - any idea what these are?

 

The image was taken as the same time as that on page 218 which IIRC is the only view of a Rose Richards wagon and also of a Midland Coal Company wgaon. The latter says it is from Port Talbot. Robin Simmonds who wrote the excellent 2 volume work on the PT has never seen a wagon from this company before and they are a bit of a mystery. Can anyone help?

[Compound2632]

I just was press ganged into doing some gardening which delayed my perusal of the photo of the brake van. It's not as clear as one would wish but it does look like a Kirtley Brake. The line of wagons in the centre of the view - any idea what these are?

 

The image was taken as the same time as that on page 218 which IIRC is the only view of a Rose Richards wagon and also of a Midland Coal Company wgaon. The latter says it is from Port Talbot. Robin Simmonds who wrote the excellent 2 volume work on the PT has never seen a wagon from this company before and they are a bit of a mystery. Can anyone help?

 

With apologies to those who can't see these photos - what can one say but go buy the book!

 

Photo of Gurnos c. 1906 pp. 140-141:

 

Siding on the left, near to far:

Sheeted wagon?

Wagon with MR sheet - almost certainly D299

Three MR D299 wagons, two loaded with coal, the centre one empty

MR 16'6" covered goods wagon, D362 (probably) or D363 (not so numerous at this date)

Richard L. Morgan 6-plank (?) wagon, loaded

PO wagon with arc lettering, loaded

MR Kirtley brake van

Richard L. Morgan wagon, loaded

Open with sheet rail, could be Great Western diagram O4 (I think that, once again, one can make out the cast plates)

Gurnos wagon, empty

PO wagon, loaded

MR Stores Dept. long rail wagon, D334

 

On loco shed siding, furthest to nearest:

MR D299, loaded

MR D299, empty - one with the extra central end ironwork between the end pillars

MR D351, empty; the end-door version of D299 - also with the extra ironwork at the fixed end

MR D299 or possibly D351, empty, again with the extra ironwork.

It's noticeable that the empty wagons are very empty - presumably they've been swept clean.

 

Photo of Gurnos, c. 1906, p. 218:

Rear line, left to right:

T.R. Rose Richards end-door wagon, loaded with small coal lumps. Note raised plank at fixed end.

Two Pwllbach Colliery end-door wagons, the nearer one loaded with small coal lumps like the Rose Richards wagon, the further with larger lumps.

MR D305 3-plank wagon, loaded with what seem to be bricks, as the caption says.

Two wagons with MR sheets, probably both D299.

Near line, left to right:

MR D299, loaded with what looks like bundles of sticks (as the caption says). 

Wagon with MR sheet. From the way the sheet is hitched up at the near end, I suspect this is another D351 end-door wagon - the sheet is hitched up over the end-door bar. Surprising to find this diagram used for merchandise rather than coal?

Midland Coal Company wagon, half-loaded with large lumps of coal.

MR D299, well loaded with large coal lumps.

PO wagon, about 3/4 loaded with very fine coal? in two humps.

 

There's so much to be got out of these photos! The sheeted wagons are interesting in the light of yesterday's modelling. In all cases the sheet is flat across the wagon, or just slightly sagging towards the middle, and the letters MR are visible as well as numbers - if not in all cases decipherable. The last-mentioned sheeted wagon - the one that is probably D351 - casts doubt on my sheet size theory as it comes down to the bottom of the side rail / top of headstocks all the way round.

 

John, thank-you for getting me to look even more closely at these photos! Coal comes in all sorts of sizes...

 

EDIT: I've had another thought about that brake van. It could be a D747 goods brake and mail van, of which only ten were built: three in 1883, one in 1891 and six in 1892. From the diagram, these have double doors towards one end like a Kirtley van. There's no photo in Midland Wagons but if the construction was similar to the contemporary D382A tariff brake vans, the doors are flush with the sides and have a window in the LH door only. On Kirtley brake vans, the doors are recessed and both doors have windows. The van in the Gurnos photo has only one window and the doors look flush with the sides.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

There was an early and late pregrouping tarp for most companies. The later design had a spash of colour removed for simplicity.

Cant recall what the Midland did though.

 

True enough, though definitive information can be hard to come by. What Tom Petith's range includes early and late types for several companies including the Midland - though the late type, without yellow border, is very late - from 1919, he says. The style I'm using was current from 1880 and certainly appears to match the lettering style of the ones in the Gurnos photos (above) though the yellow border certainly doesn't leap out at one.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Slightly off topic, but this is a thread in which pre-group wagons feature.

 

Any advice on how fresh fish was packed for rail transport in the Edwardian period? I want to make up a load for an open NER fish truck. I have found that barrels were used for herring, but what about other fish? I rather think that boxes or crates would be used for white fish. but can find no definitive answer.

[Penlan]

...... I'm a NZ Sauvignon Blanc man if I drink wine although as Penlan will confirm I prefer beer.

Indeed I do know, and at this very moment I've just opened a bottle of Rev. James 'Rye' Bitter.

Fortunately there a few more in the cellar ready to be opened too - there's a couple of crates of Rev J's 'Original, but they can wait for another day.

Agreed bottles are not the same as pump drawn Bitter, but in these remote parts of Cornwall, one has to take what's going

 

Now to Jol's question, I'm sure I've seen a photo, possibly of the LNWR Fish Truck(s) built by Jim Richards, that had some crates in, but my memory, like my eyes, is getting dim.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

Slightly off topic, but this is a thread in which pre-group wagons feature.

 

Any advice on how fresh fish was packed for rail transport in the Edwardian period? I want to make up a load for an open NER fish truck. I have found that barrels were used for herring, but what about other fish? I rather think that boxes or crates would be used for white fish. but can find no definitive answer.

 

No problem - I mentioned sea bass yesterday - possibly not a typical Edwardian fish? How's this for starters? Billingsgate, from the Museum of London, certainly more recent than Edwardian.

 

On the Midland - and I think LNWR? - all fish tucks, whether covered or open, were NPCS. I'm thinking of starting a coaching stock workbench...

 

EDIT: Google "billingsgate fish market old" - gets some good photos. Wooden boxes seem to be the order of the day.

 

Midland Style was a formative influence on me when I bought it as a teenager - one of my first proper railway books. This has a photo of a D425 fish van, No. 223 of Lot 402, built 1897 - for me, the epitome of handsome NPCS but difficult to model, with the slatted sides and outside framing. There were also some open outside-framed fish and poultry trucks, D427 - "return to Ramsden Docks, Barrow-in-Furness" - and fish tank trucks, D428, for the conveyance of live fish - "To be Returned to Grimsby" - neither location on the Midland itself!

Edited April 22, 2018 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

[snip]

 

EDIT: Google "billingsgate fish market old" - gets some good photos. Wooden boxes seem to be the order of the day.

 

Thanks for that tip Stephen, lots of period atmosphere in some of those photos.

 

On this page there are a couple of black and white photos of interest. The first because of the wonderful trader's names, and the second (the street scene) because it features horsedrawn LMS and LNER vehicles, with the fish in wooden boxes as you say. A direct link to large image here. Not quite Edwardian though. I wonder if baskets were also used for rail transport in earlier days, or whether that was just for the  fish porters (note also barrel on barrow by MR wagon in the background).

Edited April 23, 2018 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Thanks for that tip Stephen, lots of period atmosphere in some of those photos.

 

On this page there are a couple of black and white photos of interest. The first because of the wonderful trader's names, and the second (the street scene) because it features horsedrawn LMS and LNER vehicles, with the fish in wooden boxes as you say. A direct link to large image here. Not quite Edwardian though. I wonder if baskets were also used for rail transport in earlier days, or whether that was just for the  fish porters (note also barrel on barrow by MR wagon in the background).

 

Note the battens on the boxes.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Thanks for the replies re fish transportation. This photo from one of the searches mentioned gives a good idea and shows the battens Stephen mentioned.  I think the wicker baskets would have been for the porters to use within the market area. They were possibly too valuable to send far afield and. with a rounded lid, couldn't be easily stacked. 

 

[7TunnelShunter]

Slightly off topic, but this is a thread in which pre-group wagons feature.

 

Any advice on how fresh fish was packed for rail transport in the Edwardian period? I want to make up a load for an open NER fish truck. I have found that barrels were used for herring, but what about other fish? I rather think that boxes or crates would be used for white fish. but can find no definitive answer.

 

 

The short answer would be that that 'fresh' fish would be in shallow wooden boxes packed with ice and further ice added on around the pile of boxes.

 

See

 

https://www.steampicturelibrary.com/neyland-fish-platform-c1910/print/698854.html

 

Neyland was the original landing point for fish into Milford Haven (the estuary) that was subsequently shifted to Milford Haven the port!

 

Image shows boxes and fish being loaded into open wagons including GWR open with sheet rail. I assume that after ice was added the wagon would be sheeted.

 

I was surprised by this image as these are, I think, unfitted and so speed limited, not sure if they would have more ice added on route.

 

Herring would normally be 'salted' before packing in barrels and so would be preserved rather than fresh, and of course could also be smoked - to become a bloater !

 

NPCS Bloaters were build from the WW1.

[Guy Rixon]

In addition to iced fish in boxes and salted fish in barrels, there was trade in live shellfish, in tanks of some kind. I've seen references to these tanks but not pictures.

[Penlan]

The LNWR open fish trucks had a central - end to end - drainage channel taking water (and fluids?) away.
There were a lot of slight channels across the wagon as well, draining into the central channel.
I understand the LNWR Society is working on a NPCS book. - Don't mention wagons, Vol 3.

[John_Miles]

You may manage ti model the physical appearance of fish trains but the smell is what was really noticeable.

 

Compound refers to coal sizes above, the coal mined in that part of the Swansea Valley would be anthracite and it was sold in a variety of grades such as peas, beans nuts and culm. Culm was dust and was used for such things as lime burning. I wonder if the large coal at Gurnos was from elsewhere and was steam or house coal. This would explain the presence of a wagon from Port Talbot.

[Compound2632]

The short answer would be that that 'fresh' fish would be in shallow wooden boxes packed with ice and further ice added on around the pile of boxes.

 

See

 

https://www.steampicturelibrary.com/neyland-fish-platform-c1910/print/698854.html

 

Neyland was the original landing point for fish into Milford Haven (the estuary) that was subsequently shifted to Milford Haven the port!

 

Image shows boxes and fish being loaded into open wagons including GWR open with sheet rail. I assume that after ice was added the wagon would be sheeted.

 

I was surprised by this image as these are, I think, unfitted and so speed limited, not sure if they would have more ice added on route.

 

Herring would normally be 'salted' before packing in barrels and so would be preserved rather than fresh, and of course could also be smoked - to become a bloater !

 

NPCS Bloaters were build from the WW1.

 

Another splendid picture. I'm sceptical that ice would be packed around the boxes up against the sides of the wagon. Refrigerator vans* at this period had separate lined compartments filled with ice via roof hatches - I've not seen anything like that on any fish van. Moreover, the earlier design of Midland fish truck had slatted sides all the way down, hardly calculated to retain ice. Likewise these LNWR open fish trucks - I assume they were empty at the time of the accident! Sheeting I believe for the simple reason that in the photo of the D427 fish and poultry truck in Midland Carriages Vol. 2, securing rings for the sheet ties can be seen - although I'm not quite sure how that would be compatible with the continuous communication cord, eyelets for which are along the top of the wagon side.

 

"Great Western practice may have differed from that of other companies."

 

*Excuse the use of a Wessy example - the first that came to hand.

 

In addition to iced fish in boxes and salted fish in barrels, there was trade in live shellfish, in tanks of some kind. I've seen references to these tanks but not pictures.

 

Vide the D428 fish tank truck. This has a separately-numbered fish box, also in fully lined out passenger livery, which has lifting rings and held four fish tanks. These were built in 1886 but, Lacy & Dow say, "as refrigerating facilities became more widespread the need to transport live fish declined" and all had gone by 1904. Does this imply refrigerator vans running in fish trains in the Edwardian era?

 

The LNWR open fish trucks had a central - end to end - drainage channel taking water (and fluids?) away.

There were a lot of slight channels across the wagon as well, draining into the central channel.

I understand the LNWR Society is working on a NPCS book. - Don't mention wagons, Vol 3.

 

... I won't.

 

You may manage ti model the physical appearance of fish trains but the smell is what was really noticeable.

 

Isn't this available as a DCC function? Fix your chip in place with fish glue then set it to burn out...

 

Fish was either tail traffic on ordinary passenger trains or where volume permitted, ran as a separate train under express lights. We really can't go on without quoting Ahrons: "It is better to be a dead mackerel on the North-Western than a first-class passenger on the London, Brighton and South Coast."

 

Compound refers to coal sizes above, the coal mined in that part of the Swansea Valley would be anthracite and it was sold in a variety of grades such as peas, beans nuts and culm. Culm was dust and was used for such things as lime burning. I wonder if the large coal at Gurnos was from elsewhere and was steam or house coal. This would explain the presence of a wagon from Port Talbot.

 

Coals to Newcastle was a real thing.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

You may manage ti model the physical appearance of fish trains but the smell is what was really noticeable.

If you can smell the fish, then the fish are off, no good for market

As you know John, I live very near Newlyn (2 miles),

and it's very rare to have the smell of fish in the air - just about every journey I make,

is through Newlyn, 4 times a day sometimes.    

Edited April 23, 2018 by Penlan

[Penlan]

.....quoting Ahrons: "It is better to be a dead mackerel on the North-Western than a first-class passenger on the London, Brighton and South Coast."

I feel a 'Swords at Dawn'  moment coming on ...