More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

While awaiting the long looked-for publication of a volume I've vowed not to mention, I've splashed out on completing another set of wagon books:

 

 

I bought Vol. 1 of Noel Coates' superbly researched and illustrated opus soon after it was published in 1990; I see I paid £18.95. When Vol. 2 came out in 2006 I baulked at the price: I can't remember how much it was but it was more than I was then prepared to pay for something that was out of the main thrust of my interests. It currently sells for around £35.95 or more; however I happened to spot that it can be had from the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Society for £31.50, including postage. I duly placed an order a few days ago; the book arrived today and on a quick inspection I find I'm not disappointed: there's information between those covers that will aid the finishing of my Tin Tab brake van - or Diagram 21 as I should learn to call it - along with my D5 loco coal wagon rebuild. I hadn't been aware the latter were vacuum braked! This volume also covers the Diagram 3 covered goods wagon I built last year. There are also some surprises, such as the 6-plank sleeper wagons which are rather similar in dimensions to the better-known Midland D306 and D307 vehicles, and went through the same development from fixed sides to half-drop sides, though in each case the Midland wagons came first.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

There's a photo of Wigston c. 1905 that was discussed much earlier in this thread in relation to the indeterminacy of Midland wagon lead grey. A number of wagon firms' huts are visible, each with a board on the roof, one of which says "Gloster". I presume these huts were where their local wagon repairers were based; would hey have held a stock of common fittings such as springs and bearings? There was a substantial Midland wagon repair depot there, so it seems that Wigston might be the local concentration point for cripples.

 

That is quite ironic really as part of the Loco Shed there was later converted into a wagon works and the sidings in this old photo used to hold cripples. It was my local spotting place in the late 1960s and early 1970s and there was one trip out and back from Leicester with a shunting loco each day (with lots of shunting in-between).

 

Tony

[uax6]

Talking of books, is there any on the PO wagons produced by Pickerings and Hurst Nelson at all?

 

Andy G

[Penlan]

Uax6, I don't know, but a few years ago (2013) somebody on the Caledonian Rly., Assoc., Forum was looking to do a book on Scottish Trader Wagons. http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=241

The 'Railway Archive' had an article on Scottish Trader Wagons - 'Trader', as opposed to 'Private Owner'. - http://lightmoor.co.uk/books/railway-archive-issue-34/RARCH34 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

Many thanks, very useful.

In the Welsh Railways Research Circle Archives there are very detailed listings for each company of their stock taken over by the GWR in 1922/3.

Some of the Vans were ex. GWR,  there are a few wooden bodied vans from Lot 291, numbers in the range 37168, 37197 and 37058 ....Lot 261, 35215. Lot 282, 35537,  Lot, 252, 8105 (just the 4 digits in the list)

I'm sure these details are from the extensive notes on all the Welsh pre-grouping Companies by Robin Simmonds, but I had extracted details from the notes long ago, thus, as always, all E. & O.E.

Robin had spent a lot of time and done a lot of work on these records from/at Kew (presumably)

 

Those 35xxx and 37xxx numbers all look viable - they don't appear to be taken by anything else. The Lot numbers are about right too - the 35xxx numbers follow on from some 3-plank opens of Lot 289 and the 37xxx numbers are in that range just before the first V6 iron minks which were Lot 434 - looks like a big gap but Lot numbers seem to have been coming thick and fast in the late 1880s. The latter half of the 36xxx series is occupied by Lots 294, 295, 296, more 3-plank opens. 

 

The thing is, these Lots 252, 261, and 291 are not listed in Atkins as outside-framed wood minks. This suggests to me that Atkins' list is incomplete and there were rather more than the rather vague total of 100 + 200 + ? + ? listed. As Richard says, this is all rather strange given the Lot and numbering detail given for the opens, all the way back to the 1-plank ones.

 

These are all "old series" Lots; the Lot numbering starts a new series c. 1893. The other irritating thing about Atkins' listings is that no dates are given for the Lots - there must have been a date of entry in the Lot book, or at least a date of Order (which I gather might cover a series of Lots); these would be useful even though one recognises that these don't necessarily bear much relation to the actual date of entering traffic - the numbering may be a better guide to this.

[Brassey]

Yes indeed, very useful, thank you. Let's see if we can't increase the numbers of old wooden Minks!

 

...and outside frame Toads...

[Buhar]

Nick's recommendation a couple of pages back of A.J. Watt's Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co. was just what I needed and it's bargain from HMRS at £7; elsewhere it's showing as £35 or so, new and £20 secondhand!

 

The introductory section gives a really useful overview of development and the drawing of buffers and axleboxes will be invaluable.  There are very good drawings of the RCH 1887, the RCH 1903 15 ton wagon (which didn't really take off), the RCH 1906 (both steel and wood underframes) and the RCH 1923.

 

Even in the majority of the book it's not just Ince, there are a few wagons from other builders pictured when used by the same owner.  I'm now beginning to spot Ellis or Attock axleboxes and the penny has dropped that the half-circle crown plates above the W-irons is a give-away for a pre-RCH 1923 wagon.

 

Thank you, Nick.

[Lecorbusier]

Nick's recommendation a couple of pages back of A.J. Watt's Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co. was just what I needed and it's bargain from HMRS at £7; elsewhere it's showing as £35 or so, new and £20 secondhand!

 

The introductory section gives a really useful overview of development and the drawing of buffers and axleboxes will be invaluable.  There are very good drawings of the RCH 1887, the RCH 1903 15 ton wagon (which didn't really take off), the RCH 1906 (both steel and wood underframes) and the RCH 1923.

 

Even in the majority of the book it's not just Ince, there are a few wagons from other builders pictured when used by the same owner.  I'm now beginning to spot Ellis or Attock axleboxes and the penny has dropped that the half-circle crown plates above the W-irons is a give-away for a pre-RCH 1923 wagon.

 

Thank you, Nick.

Looking forward to my copy arriving now 

[Compound2632]

The HMRS will be wondering why there's a run on this volume! Somehow I find it's easier to justify the purchase of books than wheels...

[Penlan]

....... and the penny has dropped that the half-circle crown plates above the W-irons is a give-away for a pre-RCH 1923 wagon.

Well, I hadn't realised that, either.

Either ? - Well, that all LNWR wagons had 'split spoke' wheels, which came up earlier on this Topic (I think it was here).

.... and Compound2632, your getting close to being naughty re., (a certain) book 

[Compound2632]

Apropos of two recently mentioned items - Midland Railway stores sleepers wagons and Colin Ashby kits - I let one of the latter for one of the former (the D306 fixed side variety) slip by on Ebay today. It went for £17, a bit more than I was willing to contemplate. These wagons are not high on my list of priorities (but then, neither are L&Y or NBR brake vans) and with the possible re-emergence of the Slater's Midland cattle wagon underframe, I think I would go down the route of scratchbuilding the body (and replacing the oil axleboxes with grease). Although, those outside knees of tapering thickness may be a challenge...

[Spitfire2865]

The HMRS will be wondering why there's a run on this volume! Somehow I find it's easier to justify the purchase of books than wheels...

Books are resource materials and therefore educational.  Thats my justification on spending close to $50 US on some of them.  Compared to what I paid for some of my textbooks at college, practically a bargain!

[Compound2632]

My copy of A.J. Watts, Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co. (HMRS, 1998) arrive today. I'd like to thank those who recommended this. Although most of the wagons in the book are out of period or area for me, it's certainly worth £7 for the essay on the development of the RCH regulations and standards and the profuse drawings relating to the 1887 and later standards. I was interested to note that the Midland Railway's Carriage and Wagon Superintendent, T.G. Clayton, appears as Chair of the Wagon Superintendents' Committee (presumably an RCH committee) in association with the 1887 standard. Whilst Clayton is principally remembered for his magnificent passenger carriages - from his early adoption of bogie vehicles through to the magnificent square-panelled clerestory carriages at the close of the nineteenth century, it is unsurprising to find him deeply involved in wagon standardisation, given that the Midland had the biggest goods and mineral traffic of any line in the country. And of course it was his drawing office that designed the single most numerous item of railway rolling stock of the pre-Grouping period, the D299 8 ton goods and mineral wagon. 

 

Watts refers to the Midland's policy of the early 1880s of buying up the PO wagons on its system - £2M spent acquiring 66,000 wagons, about £30 per wagon - as 'bold if misguided' and 'an enormously expensive mistake', on the grounds that the private owners simply spent the money on new PO wagons. I'm still unconvinced that this is a reasonable conclusion to draw. It seems that the intention was to rid the Midland's lines of decrepit and ill-maintained wagons of outmoded design - low capacity, dumb buffers - that were a liability to the efficient operation of its mineral traffic. It also seems that the D299 building programme was intended to provide railway-owned replacements for these, to a uniform standard. However, one-for-one replacement was never going to be sufficient (a) because of the different mode of operation and charging arrangements for PO and company wagons and (b) because of the continued growth in output of the coal industry in the last decades of the nineteenth century. At the very least, the new PO wagons that were bought with the Midland's money were to the 1887 specification and subject to registration and inspection by the company. The board may well have considered that £2M well spent, along with the building cost of all those D299 wagons. (Which would have been charged to revenue, not capital, as they were replacements.)

 

Another interesting snippet is the item about wagon painters employed by the various collieries - further evidence for the view that PO wagons in the pre-Grouping era and beyond were well turned-out. What particularly caught my attention was the statement that "tar was applied to most of the ironwork on the underside of the wagon" - which I interpret as meaning, below the solebar. Was it standard practice to use tar rather than black paint?

Edited March 19, 2018 by Compound2632

[Siberian Snooper]

Hi All

 

Can anyone please help, I have acquired a Slaters Midland 8 ton box van with no destructions, can anyone let me know how the brakes go.

 

Thanks.

 

SS

[Compound2632]

Hi All

 

Can anyone please help, I have acquired a Slaters Midland 8 ton box van with no destructions, can anyone let me know how the brakes go.

 

Thanks.

 

SS

 

What period are you modelling? Unless well into the LMS period, I think it's safe to assume that the brakes will be on one side only, just as described in my D299 tutorial. Midland Wagons has a couple of photos (one dated c. 1936, the other undated) of these vans in well-worn first LMS livery, with brakes both sides. When a second set of brakes was fitted, it was independent - i.e. the same as seen from either side: no cross-shaft, no Morton lever, double V-hanger each side. Also, the vans photographed with double-sided brake gear have oil axleboxes, rather than the Ellis 10A grease axleboxes of the kit.

 

Remember also that the box van if assembled per the instructions will come out with the solebars too low in relation to the headstocks - so to that extent, you're better off without the instructions. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Compound2632

[Siberian Snooper]

Thanks very much. I'm modelling 1925 which allows me to mix and match pre and post grouping liveries.

 

I have a D299 and a 3 planker to do as well. Thanks for the heads up on the mismatch between the solebars and headstocks, that's saved me making a cock up. Do you have the diagram numbers for this wagon and the 3 plank?

[Compound2632]

Thanks very much. I'm modelling 1925 which allows me to mix and match pre and post grouping liveries.

 

I have a D299 and a 3 planker to do as well. Thanks for the heads up on the mismatch between the solebars and headstocks, that's saved me making a cock up. Do you have the diagram numbers for this wagon and the 3 plank?

 

For the 3-plank dropside wagon to Diagram 305, see my first post in this thread! Note the door stops that need to be added. D is for Diagram - D299 is Diagram 299.

[Siberian Snooper]

For the 3-plank dropside wagon to Diagram 305, see my first post in this thread! Note the door stops that need to be added. D is for Diagram - D299 is Diagram 299.

Thanks. I think I need to acquire a copy of Bob Essery book.

[Compound2632]

High resolution scans of original drawings for these wagons are available to download from the website of the Midland Railway Study Centre.

[57xx]

 

 

Can anyone please help, I have acquired a Slaters Midland 8 ton box van with no destructions, can anyone let me know how the brakes go.

 

I have a copy of the instructions here I can scan and send to you if you want. There's 3 variations shown in the book from what I can see. Brakes either side on later ones, single side with levers either side and one pic of singled side with what looks like only one lever on the same side (that's the one suggested in the instructions). 

 

Thanks. I think I need to acquire a copy of Bob Essery book.

It's a very worthwhile purchase (like all his books).

 

Remember also that the box van if assembled per the instructions will come out with the solebars too low in relation to the headstocks - so to that extent, you're better off without the instructions.

I don't recall any problems putting mine together, although I do tend to not follow instructions and assemble body separately then add the floor and solebars. 

[57xx]

I have a D299 and a 3 planker to do as well. Thanks for the heads up on the mismatch between the solebars and headstocks, that's saved me making a cock up. Do you have the diagram numbers for this wagon and the 3 plank?

 

The 8T van is I believe supposed to be a D362, although the D363 and D360 look virtually identical.

 

Well worth getting the book before you attempt the 3 plank D305 , the variations in brakes on them is bewildering.

[Compound2632]

Apologies to Siberian Snooper - I had assumed he meant the 14'11" covered goods wagon with 9' wheelbase, Slaters kit No. 4030, rather than the 16'6" covered good wagon with 10' wheelbase, Slaters kit No. 4024. The latter does not, as far as I can recall, suffer from the issue of the over-deep solebars; it also has oil rather than grease axleboxes. 

 

Kit 4030 represents wagons to D357, the final stage in the development of the covered goods wagons built on the standard 9'0" wheelbase underframe. This type of wagon goes back to 1880, with the bulk of the 1500 wagons built down to 1892 being to D353 and 13" lower than D357. There's an interesting survivor of these early wagons at Tenderton on the K&ESR. With the final batch built in 1892, there was some experimenting with different heights, and also roof hatches, which didn't catch on. This included the first D357 wagons. After this batch, production moved over to the 16'6" wagons. Then in 1903-5, nearly 3,000 more of wagons were built to D357. This apparently retrograde move was "to use existing material" - I suspect this has to do with the end of mass-production of the D299 open wagons. All these covered goods wagons were rated to carry 8 tons.

 

Kit 4024 represents the wagons built from 1893 to 1916 to D362 and from 1902 to 1915 to D363 - a total of around 7,000 vehicles. Wagons to D362 had 8" x 3 1/2" journals, the same as the 9'0" wheelbase wagons, and so like them were rated to carry 8 tons, whereas wagons to D363 had 9" x 3 1/2" journals and were rated to carry 10 tons. Externally they were identical, though unknown numbers (probably small) of both diagrams were equipped with AVB or AVB and Westinghouse through pipes, though not automatic brakes. Early construction had Ellis 10A grease axleboxes, it's unclear when oil axleboxes (per the kit) came in. Only 350 wagons were built to D360. These had 3'7" wheels and AVB and were rated to carry 6 tons in goods trains and 5 tons in passenger trains. 

 

Hope that helps! I haven't built either kit recently - in fact my only examples are from my teenage modelling years, over three decades ago:

 

 

Left to right:

 

D357 covered goods wagon (Slater's kit No. 4030, with the solebar/headstock misalignment problem);

D363 covered goods wagon (Slater's kit No. 4024);

D378 covered fruit van with AVB & Westinghouse through pipes (Body: Slater's kit No. 4024F, with the lower louvres removed and door "boarded over"; underframe spliced together from 9'0" underframes, with Ellis 10A grease axleboxes);

D361 covered goods wagon with 3'7" wheels and AVB (Slater's kit No. 4024F).

 

There were just 100 of the D378 fruit vans built, in 1896; the lettering on the model follows the official photo in Midland Wagons. There were even fewer of the D361 vehicles, just 50 built in 1903, and even fewer - 16 - of D364, which were the same except with 3'1" wheels. It would be easy enough to make one of these along with a D360 by swapping the underframes between the two kits.

 

EDIT: I've made a mistake about the quantity of D364 built. I'd overlooked the 450 built as part of Lot 543 of 1902. The extra 16 were built as Lot 723 of 1909. However, it is only these 16 that were built to the same drawing number as the D361 vehicles, with louvred sides; the 450 of 1902 were built to the standard drawing for the 16'6" covered goods wagons. The diagram shows louvres. Bit of a puzzle!

Edited May 5, 2018 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

I seem to have only one of the Midland vans on my layout, and that's static in the yard.
As this is circa 1910, the LNWR van seems to be fresh from being repainted in the latest livery   
And, I don't know where I got the Mid Rly Van's number from.

At exhibitions, when there's been newbie operators helping?

They sometimes try to move these vans, though the vans are not fixed in place, the axles don't revolve easily. 
In fact looking at the photo, there seems to be some missing coupling links too.

From the back of the layout, these look like everyday vans ready to move (Closed doors).

Edited March 26, 2018 by Penlan

[Siberian Snooper]

It is kit 4030 that I have and I can see the issue with the solebars, hopefully I will soon get around to sorting them out.

 

I have ordered the book and it's due after Easter.

 

I might have to acquire a couple of more kits, to add some variation.

 

Thanks for the postings.

[Spitfire2865]

It is kit 4030 that I have and I can see the issue with the solebars, hopefully I will soon get around to sorting them out.

 

I have ordered the book and it's due after Easter.

 

I might have to acquire a couple of more kits, to add some variation.

 

Thanks for the postings.

For the Slaters D299, remember the slaters kits are smooth on the inside.  And for some reason the Midland really went to town on internal strapping for this diagram.  Check my workbench thread for my Gauge 3 scratchbuild of one if you need help deciphering the drawings.