More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Dave Hunt]

Gentlemen,

 

My profound apologies for having posted the drivel about the 1102 bunker & cab. I started looking at the question purely from a modelling point of view and meant only to give a rough idea of what the arrangement was - hence I didn't bother about the difference in the shape of the cab opening or bunker size. Part way through that I got sidetracked then, when I returned to the issue I had a total brain f**t and forgot completely about the presence or absence of tanks in the bunker as pointed out by Stephen. In earlier times David Tee would no doubt have had me drummed out of the Society with sword broken and buttons cut off but the best I can do now is to hang my head in shame and crave forgiveness.

 

The strange whirring noise is probably David turning rapidly in his grave. 

 

Dave

[John-Miles]

Dave

 

We have all been there. In my previous life as an academic, I once started on a long derivation associated with finite elements and I had a brain freeze. There was a French student in the class who twice picked up mistakes in my maths. When you are supposed to know what you are talking about, it makes for an uncomfortable experience.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

The strange whirring noise is probably David turning rapidly in his grave. 

 

Don't beat yourself up, Dave. I got stuck with a Craftsman 0-4-4T kit because I couldn't puzzle out what was supposed to be going on in the cab/bunker area, not have realised about the bunker tanks - and that despite having Midland Engines No. 1 to hand. But having looked at it again, it all now makes sense. That wouldn't have happened without you posting the drawing, even though I already had it. It'll be interesting to see what Bachmann have made of that area.

 

@John_Miles, once your friend has finished the 1102, please do encourage them to take a look at the J/J2/M 0-6-0s. 

[Rowsley17D]

Will some kind person tell me if LMS D1667 open wagons had brakes both sides or just one and disc or spoked wheels? I am repairing wagons from my layout while I cannot get to it due to travel restrictions and that's where my reference books are too. Many thanks.

[Adam]

16 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

Will some kind person tell me if LMS D1667 open wagons had brakes both sides or just one and disc or spoked wheels? I am repairing wagons from my layout while I cannot get to it due to travel restrictions and that's where my reference books are too. Many thanks.

 

Is that basically the steel-underframed version of the 1666? Per this Paul Bartlett image: https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e251f3e48

 

I guess it depends when on the wagon's life you're referring to. The image linked above shows independent brakes on both sides and, I think, disc wheels. Wheels, however, were consumables and got changed. I'd imagine they were built with spoked wheels though, either split or plain.

 

Adam

[Compound2632]

@Rowsley17D, courtesy of the Midland Railway Study Centre I can link to the Derby Carriage & Wagon Drawing Office copy of Drawing 5612 of May 1923. R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977) is silent on drawing numbers but I believe this is the drawing for wagons built to D1666, with wooden frames. As was pointed out to me not so long ago (I had previously been in error) this shows brakes on one side only, driven off a cross-shaft actuated by an ordinary brake lever on the side furthest from the brakes and a Morton cam lever on the side nearest the brakes - which I think was the standard LMS arrangement. However, there's a note on the drawing: "Morton Brake is shown but separate brake on each side may be fitted if desired", with sketches showing the double V-hanger for this alternative arrangement, which has no cross-shaft. For the Morton brake, the drawing shows the cross shaft supported by a single V-hanger on each side, fastened to the inside face of the solebar. The photo illustrating D1666 in Essery & Morgan shows a wagon with the separate brake arrangement. I haven't seen a drawing for D1667 but the photo in Essery & Morgan, of a wagon in post-nationalisation condition, also shows separate brakes, again identified by the double V-hanger (likewise the Paul Bartlett photo). Essery & Morgan is silent on the arrangement of the brakes for either of these diagrams, saying merely "numerous small variations in detail occurred". I doubt there's any way now of knowing how many of each diagram were built with either type of brake.

 

Both the photos mentioned show 8-spoke wheels; the D1666 photo (an official of an ex-works wagon) shows split spokes.

 

The drawing linked to above has been kept up-to-date, with the position of the 1936 lettering added and the capacity amended from 12 tons to 13 tons - when was that done? Wartime?

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Meanwhile, on the modelling front:

 

I changed to an old bit that was still useable and finished the break gear on the ballast brake. Just the corner lampirons then it's on to the few whitemetal components - buffers, axleboxes, and springs.

 

We had olives in our lunchtime salad, so I decanted the rest:

 

 

This is still the same piece of plasticard as the first two attempts, so it's retained the too-tight curvature but I think it's near enough to be useable:

 

 

So the next step will be cutting it to size and adding the lamps, ventilators, and rainstrips.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Rowsley17D]

Thanks to @Compound2632, Stephen and @Adam for the D1667 information. It is the metal under-frame version of D1666. I've gone for the single-sided Morton brake with spoked wheels.

[Rail-Online]

If you have a lot of roofs to do here is the de-lux version.   Slide 20 though plasticard in the slots (it is quite tight) and plunge away!

Courtesy of Martin Finney.

 

Tony.

 

(sorry they are so huge!)

Edited April 1, 2020 by Rail-Online

[Compound2632]

... but first one has to master the art of bending the metal to just the right radius!

[Compound2632]

I've had a go at the rainstrips:

 

 

These are 0.020" x 0.010" microstrip, standing with the narrow face welded to the roof. I marked out the positions at the ends - 0.5 mm and 7.5 mm in from the edge - and centre, 1.0 mm and 8.0 mm, all estimated from photographs. Holding the microstrip in tweezers, I tacked it down with MekPak at the middle, trying to make sure it was parallel with the edge of the roof. I then tacked it down at one end, checked the microstrip had taken up a smooth curve, and allowed Mek to run along the length of the strip by capillary action. This was then repeated for the other end, trying to get a symmetrical curve - and not quite succeeding every time. I had two complete failures that I pulled off before the joint had time to harden. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

I've pretty much finished the roof of the D418 milk and fruit van, using the whitemetal castings from the kit, cyano'd in place:

 

 

My reference photo, R.E. Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) Fig. 593, shows oil lamps - or rather, the bungs in place in the holes, but not torpedo vents. The diagram shows the latter; I'm not sure when they were fitted but I've gone with them. The reference photo is an undated official, DY 6537. The ends of the rainstrips are cut at an angle, to finish just a fraction in from the end of the roof.

 

The S&DJR milk van has taken a bit of a back seat, but I've formed its roof too. It was back to the wine bottle for this, as Highbridge-built vehicles retained the 10 ft radius roof of the very early Clayton period:

 

 

Placing the roof on the body has revealed a snag - the fold-over eves flanges project above the line of the end profile. So I may add a bit of microstrip packing.

 

I've added the rainstrips and the handrails - the body needs handrails too - but not yet the rest of the roof furniture, just a pair of gas lamps with their bung holders. I've also realised that in soldering the Slaters buffer guides directly to the headstocks, I've failed to represent their lobed bases. 

 

I don't have a suitable blue paint for this vehicle. I haven't yet found a definitive statement of the best Halfords match. I believe my local Halfords is open but I don't really think a can of Highbridge blue is an essential purchase for continued safe motoring...

 

The postman deposited a small parcel on my doorstep, rang the doorbell and retired to a safe distance, photographing the parcel and my feet as proof of delivery. After disposal of the outer box and thorough handwashing, in line with current guidance, I could examine the contents:

 

 

... which does look rather like an avant-guard sculpture installation. These are some of @TurboSnail's recent 3D prints. The two in translucent green are a couple more Brighton Open As, this time the steel-framed version, later SR diagram 1371, one each of the Cravens and Birmingham RC&W Co. batches - as I've mentioned before, I've spotted two Cravens and a Brum in an accident at West Norwood in 1900. Now I have to remind myself which is which - they are distinguished by the shape of the headstock end. In the foreground, a South Eastern Railway coal wagon, such as seen on the right here at Huntley & Palmers c. 1900.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Not much done today. My order from Eileen's Emporium arrived on Wednesday, delivered by a DPD man on one of their rather smart if dinky one-man electric delivery floats. They're finally catching up with the early 20th century:

 

 

Edison 2 ton electric motor vehicle reg. CH1273 at Sheffield, 11 Nov 1915. NRM DY 10377, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

My order included the Bill Bedford Midland carriage axleguards discussed above. Trying these out, I hit a snag. The distance between the bottom flanges of the solebars on the D418 kit is 24.0 mm, a whisker under the  prototypical 6'1". The axleguard units are 24.6 mm over front faces. So, they won't fit without a lot of filing that would be doubly inconvenient since the footboards and brakes are in the way. (I think the excess width is to allow room for the springing, with the inside "axlebox".) So, do I hack these axleguard units around, or put them aside for another project (I have one in mind) and look for an alternative solution?

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[billbedford]

The w-iron are the correct 24mm between the inside faces, plus 0.3mm thick brass on each side. All other brass w-irons will have similar dimensions. 

 

I presume you have read this page?

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, billbedford said:

The w-iron are the correct 24mm between the inside faces, plus 0.3mm thick brass on each side. All other brass w-irons will have similar dimensions. 

 

I presume you have read this page?

 

 

Hi Bill, thanks - and thanks for reminding me of Russ Elliot's article, which I had seen before. I accept (both by measurement and your word) that the axleguard unit meets these standards; it's not really that that is at issue, so much as the inevitable slight over-scale thickness of an etched brass component* combined with the solebar flanges being a whisker too close together, results in the unit not fitting - which is no-one's fault as the kit wasn't designed with these axleguards in mind, but with the whitemetal casting with which it was supplied.

 

As measurement of a random couple of wagon axleguard units (from a D&S kit and from MJT) confirm Bill's statement about the universality of the 24.0 mm inside faces dimension (not that I doubted it), I'm forced to the conclusion that filing to fit will be the best solution. This will mean taking the brake gear out, which is a pain because it was tricky to fit, but the compensation is that Bill's design includes fold-down brake-blocks. 

 

*The 0.3 mm thickness corresponds to 1" scale thickness, compared to 3/4" for the prototype. This, together with the fact that on the prototype, the axleguards are set at 5'11.5" back-to-back, i.e. 6'1" over front faces, means that at 24.6 mm, the etched axleguards are a scale 1" over-width, whilst the solebar back-to-back is a scale 1" too small (possibly the result of imperfection in my assembly of the kit), resulting in a scale 2" mis-match. 

[Western Star]

On 14/03/2018 at 17:21, Compound2632 said:

Although, those outside knees of tapering thickness may be a challenge...

You may benefit from looking at "The 4mm Coal Wagon" (the late John Hayes, Wild Swan) were there is an illustration of a a jig that John used to create the taper of wagon side knees (for the sheeting).

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

@Western Star, the Hayes book has been mentioned several times recently. When it first came out, I was a bit sniffy as it seemed to me all post-Grouping but lately folk have been drawing attention to Hayes' discussion of modelling techniques which are applicable to wagons of all ages. From posts in other threads lately, it seems I'm not the only one to have been encouraged to change their mind. 

 

Other contributors may have spotted that Graham is responding to a post of mine from two years ago. He seems to have been spending his Saturday mornings diligently working his way through this thread, "liking" posts as he goes, which is very flattering. Consequently, I've been on his trail, being reminded of the many interesting and informative things that have been said, and "liking" them in turn. It seems I didn't used to be generous enough with the approval buttons. So that's why you may be getting a rash if "likes" for old posts. Thanks all and keep on keeping me on the straight and narrow!

Edited April 4, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

As a change to soldering, today I started attacking the TS Design 3D printed wagons. I tackled the SER wagon first, beginning by hacking away at the forest of support sprue with a pair of side cutters. The plastic used for this print, a dark green material, is quite brittle; I did have one sprue come away with a small section of the bodyside leaving a gap to be filled (see photo below) and I did have one solebar snap - probably simply the result of over-enthusiasm and easily glued back together: the break was clean. The print yields three components: the body, including headstocks and buffers; and the two solebars with running gear, one of which includes the single brake block. At this point I started to get anxious, thinking I'd hacked away at the brake lever mistaking it for an ordinary support sprue. At this point, I did what I should probably have done first: I watched the construction video, which makes it plain that the brake lever has to be a user-supplied or made piece. The basic assembly took less time than the video (which, to be honest, I did skip through). I used Delux Materials' Roket Max cyano, with one of their Micro Tips fine applicator nozzles (@TurboSnail take note), along with MJT standard 2 mm pin point bearings and Alan Gibson 14 mm diameter Mansell Wheels. 

 

With all the family at home, I can't get away with spray can painting indoors; fortunately it's been a warm, sunny afternoon, so my "spray booth" (large cardboard box) went out in the garden. So within a couple of hours (including a tea interval and time spent dipping into Southern Wagons Vols. 2 and 3), I'd reached this point:

 

 

The wagons that the Southern assigned to their diagram 1328 were of two types that differed in running gear and, at least originally, buffers. This kit is for the "express coal wagon" with passenger-ish running gear, built 1885-1888; Southern Wagons Vol. 3 lists SER numbers for 135 of these. The ordinary type, dating from 1864, is, I think, what the Prickley Pear whitemetal kit represents. From Southern Wagons I get the impression that for wagons of this type running in the 20th century, only the ironwork dated from the 1860s. 

 

One further point of differentiation between the two types, according to the drawing in Southern Wagons is that the "express" version was equipped with lampirons. These seem to have been quite a common feature of SER wagons; the coal wagon in one of my favourite Huntley & Palmers photos has them, though I think this is the smaller-wheeled version. I'll add these in microstrip. 

 

I also started work on one of the Brighton Open As:

 

 

From the angled end to the headstocks, this is the Birmingham RC&W Co. version. A NEM pocket is included in the body print, here I've sawn one off. (These were also removed from the SER wagon.) The Open As have been printed in a less brittle plastic and have a less dense forest of support sprues, so it's been quicker and easier to get to a good level of surface finish. I'm also tempted to chop off the buffer heads and drill out the shanks to take turned metal ones.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[TurboSnail]

Thanks for that Stephen

 

The difference in the brittleness is down to different batches of resin, unfortunately, the earlier batch came out far more brittle. The buffers are a little over scale thickness, this is down to the minimum requirement for it to print well. They can be sanded back afterwards, or as you say, replaced. The same goes for the lamp irons and brake lever, which I haven't printed on the SER model as they'd look overscale and are very easy to model with a bit of plastic strip.

 

I will get myself some proper superglue at some point!

[Compound2632]

I've assembled the Brum Open A:

 

 

The camera doesn't cope well with the translucent material! It's been a bit of a learning curve working with this material I lost one of the buffers when sawing off the other NEM pocket. That decided me on replacing the buffers. I've used MJT Midland wagon buffers - the Billinton LBSC ones are well-nigh identical which I attribute to R.J.'s Derby connection! I had tried cutting a buffer head off and drilling out the guide for a turned metal buffer but what I've learnt is that this material is the very devil to drill. It shatters easily. I've developed a method of going a drill size at a time - 0.5 mm, 0.8 mm, 1.2 mm, 1. 5 mm, 1.8 mm, 2.0 mm - but even so there's a tendency for the centre to drift, so for the buffers I ended up carefully drifting the whole to a better place with a round needle file. Even so I don't think these two buffers have ended up at the same height. I've also drilled out the lifting holes in the solebar to 1.3 mm (4") - the locations are very faintly marked on the print - again with more success on this side than the other. 

 

I'm starting to think about the sheet rail, which has flattened ends - like, but not identical to, the Bluebell's example, which is a later design, SR diagram 1369 I think (like the Cambrian kit).  I'm thinking of bending up the rail from 0.6 mm brass wire, filing a flat on the inside of the end and soldering brass strip to it. The print doesn't have the sheet bar locating casting (which I'd scraped off the Cambrian kit!) so I'll need to bodge that up from plasticard.

 

I did look (to the extent of £16) at a Colin Ashby kit for a Midland D306 fixed-sided sleeper wagon on Ebay this evening - it went for £22. Not the first time I've let one go. I trust the buyer enjoys!

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

A coat of primer helps:

 

 

Birmingham RC&W Co. on the left, with MJT Midland buffers, and Cravens RC&W Co. on the right, with the printed buffers - partly because I managed not to break any, partly because drilling out the holes for the metal buffers is fraught. However, I think the MJT buffers look better, so I may change my mind. The knack bodge is to drill out up to 1.2 mm then use a circular needle file to open up the hole - this puts less stress on the material, so the headstock is less likely to crack, as it does if one tries do drill out to 2.0 mm...

 

The primer shows up some nice detail - notably the L B S C lettering on the axlebox covers, but also exposes some places (on the ends) where I'd not cleaned up the residual pips from the sprue well enough.

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632
Substituted bodge for knack. Image re-inserted.

[Mikkel]

Just been catching up Stephen. From etched brass to translucent 3D prints in the space of a few posts, I like such an all embracing approach.

 

Instructions in a Youtube video, we haven't seen much of that yet in the hobby, come to think of it.

[richbrummitt]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A coat of primer helps:

 

 

Birmingham RC&W Co. on the left, with MJT Midland buffers, and Cravens RC&W Co. on the right, with the printed buffers - partly because I managed not to break any, partly because drilling out the holes for the metal buffers is fraught. However, I think the MJT buffers look better, so I may change my mind. The knack is to drill out up to 1.2 mm then use a circular needle file to open up the hole - this puts less stress on the material, so the headstock is less likely to crack, as it does if one tries do drill out to 2.0 mm...

 

The primer shows up some nice detail - notably the L B S C lettering on the axlebox covers, but also exposes some places (on the ends) where I'd not cleaned up the residual pips from the sprue well enough.

 

 

Running the drill anti clockwise can help. Most drills are sharp for drilling hard stuff and are way too sharp with too much bite for this kind of material. 

[Rail-Online]

It could be me, or a camera abberation, but does the Birmingham RC&W Co. one on the left have a solebar that bends up towards the left end?

 

Tony

[MikeOxon]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... - partly because I managed not to break any, partly because drilling out the holes for the metal buffers is fraught. However, I think the MJT buffers look better, so I may change my mind. The knack is to drill out up to 1.2 mm then use a circular needle file to open up the hole - this puts less stress on the material, so the headstock is less likely to crack, as it does if one tries do drill out to 2.0 mm...

 

 

Some time ago, I posted a link to the following video on my blog:

 

 

I now keep some blunted drills handy for brass and plastic.

 

Mike