More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Even if you never build a coal wagon in your modelling career, it's worth it for the scratchbuilding tips alone IMHO.

 

Perhaps I should lay in a copy in case I run out of Mek. Panic buying of modelling books - what next?

[Rail-Online]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Perhaps I should lay in a copy in case I run out of Mek. Panic buying of modelling books - what next?

 

Errr, loco, wagon and coach kits?!!!   Just in case they go out of business (like so many have)!

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

 

Errr, loco, wagon and coach kits?!!!   Just in case they go out of business (like so many have)!

 

 

I thought that was already in progress.

[Compound2632]

While I've been getting into soldering, I've not neglected other modelling - I've started on the Archer "rivets" for the Drake & Mount wagons but have a feeling I'm going to need to trawl back through to remind myself what I did that led to success.

 

Here's an interesting photo, if Midland drop-side wagons are your thing:

 

 

NRM DY 471, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Leicester Regent Road bridge being demolished for widening - early 1890s. I think there are three generations of low-sided wagon here. In the centre, a wagon from at latest the early 1870s, with two end planks supported by iron knees on the inside - the external washer plates give the impression of much flimsier construction than is really the case. Note also the five-link coupling chain. Next, on the left, a wagon from the immediate pre-Lot Book period, c. 1874 - still two end planks but external wooden end pillars in place of the centre knee; the iron knees at the corners are now on the outside [see R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons (OPC, 1980) Fig. 31]. This is the type represented by Mousa Models kit BWK1711, of which I've built a couple. Finally, I think the wagon next in line to this is an example of the Litchurch Lane-built wagons to Drawing 213, with three end planks - built 1877-1887. I've built a couple of the Mousa Models kits for these too, BWK1707. They can also be built from the Slaters kit, with suitable modification to the headstock ends. These wagons are all in the Engineer's Department livery, which at this date was almost certainly ordinary wagon grey, the well-known red oxide not coming in until the 20th century, with leather or canvas flaps protecting the axleboxes from dirt. 

 

At 31 December 1894, there were 20,499 low sided goods wagons in service, of which 5,250 had been constructed since 1877 to drawing 213. That leaves 15,249 wagons of these pre-Lot Book types still in service. By my reckoning, the Midland's wagon stock was somewhere around 31,000 - 33,000 when the programme of buying up PO wagons began in 1882. This indicates that low-sided wagons accounted for at least half the wagon stock at this time; one can infer that they were, in fact, the Midland's standard goods wagon from the dark ages of the 1860s, maybe even as far back as the 1850s.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Continuing on the topic of pre-Lot Book low-sided wagons - the Midland ur-wagen if you will - I've been fascinated by a photograph in I.P. Peaty, Mountsorrel and its Associated Quarry Railways (Irwell Press, 2012) p. 27; unfortunately I can't reproduce it here. This photo shows a couple of these early wagons with two-plank ends supported by internal knees. 

 

The caption in the Mountsorrel book describes the two wagons as "internal user" but I have come to doubt this. Both wagons are wearing their Midland numberplates and at least the nearer one has its tare weight painted on the lower edge of the solebar in Midland fashion. If they had been sold out of Midland stock, surely evidence of Midland ownership would have been removed? The only other markings are the letters N D on the nearer wagon and S D on the further, in letters about 15" high, much like the well-known E D of Midland Engineer's Department ballast wagons (cf. the Leicester photo in the previous post). Both wagons have the protective flaps over the axleboxes characteristic of ballast wagons. 

 

Until 1883, the Midland's Engineers' Department was divided into Northern and Southern Divisions [A.E. Overton and R.F. Burrows, The Functions and Organisation of the Midland Railway Engineer's Department (Midland Railway Society, 2015)]. I wonder if this photo reflects this. The date need not be before 1883; these ballast wagons could well have retained their divisional branding for years afterwards; they may never have been re-lettered E D. 

 

One of the Mountsorrel company's fleet of charming little Hunslet 0-4-0STs is seen head on in the photo; although obscured by the wagons, from the shape and position of the handrails I think this has a top-hinged smokebox door rather than the later circular type; going by other photos of these engines in the book this could indicate a date before 1900. (Photo of The Baron, Hunslet No. 702 of 1899, in late - i.e. filthy - condition.)

 

[Post mostly recycled from the Castle Aching thread, covering up for not having actually done any modelling today.]

Edited March 24, 2020 by Compound2632

[Buhar]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

[Post mostly recycled from the Castle Aching thread, covering up for not having actually done any modelling today.]

Thank goodness.  Until that caveat I was puzzling at it's familiarity, checking the posting time, wondering if I'd pressed a back button unwittingly and generally feeling confused.

 

Alan

[Compound2632]

A bit more on the D418 milk and fruit van - I've completed the stepboards. The lower stepboards are a a scale 20.5" below the upper footboards (top surface to top surface), or 31.5" from the underside of the body to the underside of the lower footboard - the standard dimensions for Clayton arc-roofed non-bogie carriages, taken from this drawing in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection. The wire footboard supports locate through holes in the bottom flange of the solebar and butt up against the underside of the body. Setting the micrometer to 10.5 mm, the wires were trimmed so that the footboard assembly just slid between the jaws, except where the wire is soldered to the underside of the footboard:

 

 

That completes the brasswork, apart from the brake gear. The axleguards, axleboxes, and springs are single whitemetal castings, rather chunky and with some wrong details, though the way they fit behind the solebar is rather neat:

 

 

I'm weighing up whether to try to improve or replace these. I have suitable axlebox/spring units - plastic, spares from Slaters 6-wheel carriage kits; at the time a few years ago when Coopercraft was still at ExpoEM etc. with a sad little stand of mouldings, I hoovered up quite a few sprues of these. However, I don't have any suitable etched brass axleguard units, so further progress may have to be post-Covid19. The brake gear is brass, so I may go for a partial assembly of that, and also have a look at the whitemetal buffer guides.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Guy Rixon]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A bit more on the D418 milk and fruit van - I've completed the stepboards. The lower stepboards are a a scale 20.5" below the upper footboards (top surface to top surface), or 31.5" from the underside of the body to the underside of the lower footboard - the standard dimensions for Clayton arc-roofed non-bogie carriages, taken from this drawing in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection. The wire footboard supports locate through holes in the bottom flange of the solebar and butt up against the underside of the body. Setting the micrometer to 10.5 mm, the wires were trimmed so that the footboard assembly just slid between the jaws, except where the wire is soldered to the underside of the footboard:

 

 

That completes the brasswork, apart from the brake gear. The axleguards, axleboxes, and springs are single whitemetal castings, rather chunky and with some wrong details, though the way they fit behind the solebar is rather neat:

 

 

I'm weighing up whether to try to improve or replace these. I have suitable axlebox/spring units - plastic, spares from Slaters 6-wheel carriage kits; at the time a few years ago when Coopercraft was still at ExpoEM etc. with a sad little stand of mouldings, I hoovered up quite a few sprues of these. However, I don't have any suitable etched brass axleguard units, so further progress may have to be post-Covid19. The brake gear is brass, so I may go for a partial assembly of that, and also have a look at the whitemetal buffer guides.

Can you not get MR axleguards from Eileen's: the Bill Bedford range?

[Nile]

Like these ?

[Compound2632]

Those are they. I've got a little list of things I could order from Eileens - also including some new bits for the iron; I think my current one is getting a bit past it.

 

Apologies for this becoming a bit of a tedious blow-by-blow but today, brakes and lamp irons:

 

 

The cross-plate will support the whitemetal brake cylinder - the lever is loose on the cross-shaft for now. I've spurned the etched brake yokes in favour of simple wire cross-members, just enough to keep the brake blocks in line. 

 

The fold-up lamp irons don't show up very well in this photo. I've only done the ones on the ends; there should be one at each corner of the upper bodyside. On the prototype, they're a different shape, with a bracket fixed to the end rather than side - thinking how to represent this with the etched parts available.

 

I'm getting into this brasswork again and have been rummaging - my old D&S North Eastern 6-wheelers have re-surfaced...

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, Nile said:

Like these ?

 

No, these

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

No, these

 

Thanks. Those are the ones in my basket right now!

[Rail-Online]

Are you going to blank off the rear of the 'louvres'?  I do it at the painting stage with black plasticard mounted about 30 though off the inner sides. This gives them an 'open' look with depth but not the unrealistic 'see through' effect   

Tony

[Compound2632]

On 27/03/2020 at 16:09, Rail-Online said:

Are you going to blank off the rear of the 'louvres'?  I do it at the painting stage with black plasticard mounted about 30 though off the inner sides. This gives them an 'open' look with depth but not the unrealistic 'see through' effect   

Tony

 

That's a good point that I hadn't considered - thanks for bring it up. The louvres were slats mounted at 45°, finished flush with the panelling. They were sufficiently close together that daylight would not be visible at normal viewing angles. On the model, these are simple etched slots. I wonder if a piece of plasticard scribed with 45° grooves, fixed immediately behind the etched side, would give the right impression. The 45° surface should be painted body colour but probably tending to black-ish further from the front.

 

Today I've been thinking about roofs. The Connoisseur kit comes with a pre-formed brass roof but I want to practice forming plasticard roofs and making rainstrips from microstrip. Looking at a drawing of a carriage with the same design features, 0.020" plasticard is about right - the roof boards are a bit under 1½" thick but the roof needs to have some strength. The roof should be 4" longer than the body; I cut a piece of plasticard to length but about 30 mm wider than the body. On what will be the underside, I lightly scribed the centre-line and lines 7.5 mm either side for the torpedo ventilators, along with cross-lines at the lamp and ventilator positions. Using a piece of card curved over the arc of the end, I estimated the width of plasticard needed to form the roof - about 36 mm, erring on the side of being too wide, and lightly scribed further lines 18 mm either side of the centre line.

 

The next step was the best bit - preparing an empty wine bottle. It's important to choose one that has parallel sides over at least the length of the roof. I had had the forethought to prepare a suitable bottle of Rioja last Sunday. The plasticard was sellotaped to the bottle; the bottle was filled with water just off the boil and stood in a cafetiere, which was then also filled:

 

 

Left for five minutes or so, the plasticard takes up the curve of the bottle, at least over its central portion - the selotape does not hold the plasticard tight against the side of the bottle, so the edges are always flatter, which is why the plasticard was cut over-width. 

 

The diameter of the bottle is about 3", which would be just right for a 10 ft radius roof. Unfortunately, Clayton's standard arc-roof carriages had an 8 ft radius roof:

 

 

... for which a 2.5" diameter bottle would be ideal. Any recommendations?

 

I hunted around but the next best thing I could find was a bit of 1.5" waste pipe:

 

 

At least I've done the end handrails.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Buhar]

The radius should be tighter than required as the plasticard will spring back a bit. I'd also recommend a bit more binding, bandage or duct tape evenly wrapped. 

 

Would a beer bottle be tall enough? Maybe a pilchard can. Just the one, no hoarding. 

 

Alan 

[Compound2632]

On 27/03/2020 at 21:01, Buhar said:

The radius should be tighter than required as the plasticard will spring back a bit. I'd also recommend a bit more binding, bandage or duct tape evenly wrapped. 

 

Would a beer bottle be tall enough? Maybe a pilchard can. Just the one, no hoarding. 

 

Only just a little bit tighter, is the conclusion from my experiments so far. I must check because I think some of my roofless vans have 10 ft radius or flatter roofs. The only beer bottles in stock are Czech and only a bit narrower than the Rioja bottle. Jam jars are a better size but not long enough. Bear in mind that although this van is only 25 ft long, I want a solution that will work for bogie carriages up to 45 ft or even 54 ft long. I'm thinking olives:

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Buhar]

That could well do. 

Alan 

[jwealleans]

Your second one will work.   Solder a length of old rail along the centreline between tops of the ends and glue the roof to that.   It will hold itself in place along both edges (although glue is a good idea there too) but the fixed centre will mean it's shape follows the curve of the ends.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Your second one will work.   Solder a length of old rail along the centreline between tops of the ends and glue the roof to that.   It will hold itself in place along both edges (although glue is a good idea there too) but the fixed centre will mean it's shape follows the curve of the ends.

 

Interesting idea, although I think I'd like to be nearer the target radius to start off with. I'd like to be able to detail and paint the roof separately.

[Guy Rixon]

You can rescue the wine-bottle one, since it's fairly close to the right curvature. If you cut some formers to the profile of the ends from thick, plastic card, you can weld the roof to the formers and it should hold well. I've one I did like that 30 years ago and it hasn't distorted. 

 

However, now you've practiced the method, why not use the nice, metal roof in the kit? IIRC, it has the rainstrips etched in and that's a load of pain avoided.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

You can rescue the wine-bottle one, since it's fairly close to the right curvature. If you cut some formers to the profile of the ends from thick, plastic card, you can weld the roof to the formers and it should hold well. I've one I did like that 30 years ago and it hasn't distorted. 

 

It's the same piece of plasticard in both photos. My aim is to experiment until I get close enough.

 

9 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

However, now you've practiced the method, why not use the nice, metal roof in the kit? IIRC, it has the rainstrips etched in and that's a load of pain avoided.

 

Not mine, it's plain. I'm up for the pain. This vehicle, in common with most Clayton arc-roofed carriages, has double rainstrips. I want to push further with the technique I used for good van roofs:

 

Somewhat shocked to realise that was nearly two years ago!

Edited March 28, 2020 by Compound2632

[richbrummitt]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 a 2.5" diameter bottle would be ideal. Any recommendations?

 

I've just had a measure of a few and the Jen Pfeiffer The Diamond 10yo Rutherglen Tawny that I'm half way through is approximately bang on 2.5" diameter measured with a 26' tape measure (conveniently to hand)  This is a 500ml bottle so if you're into dessert wine...

 

I can save the bottle for you when finished if you like? Probably be a couple months, by which time non-essential travel might be allowed again to hand it over...

[Craigw]

1 hour ago, richbrummitt said:

 

 

I can save the bottle for you when finished if you like? Probably be a couple months, by which time non-essential travel might be allowed again to hand it over...

 

A couple of months?

You need to try harder!

 

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

 

I've just had a measure of a few and the Jen Pfeiffer The Diamond 10yo Rutherglen Tawny that I'm half way through is approximately bang on 2.5" diameter measured with a 26' tape measure (conveniently to hand)  This is a 500ml bottle so if you're into dessert wine...

 

I can save the bottle for you when finished if you like? Probably be a couple months, by which time non-essential travel might be allowed again to hand it over...

 

Thanks for the offer but I'm sure I'll be able to manage something on that timescale!

[richbrummitt]

8 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

A couple of months?

You need to try harder!

 

 

Probably more likely a month - shouldn't keep them open too long. It's not the only bottle of port I have open though.