More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Guy Rixon]

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

This raises a philosophical question: does a model railway manufacturer have a moral duty to inform and educate as well as entertain?

My view: inform, yes; educate, typically no. There is a legal duty to provide enough information that a customer can determine whether the product is fit for their purpose. There is, IMHO, a moral duty to provide enough information to head off gross mis-use of the product, but not to turn the customer into an expert.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

There is a ... duty to provide enough information that a customer can determine whether the product is fit for their purpose.

 

But the customer may need to be sufficiently educated to be able to determine whether the product is fit for purpose. That may not be in the manufacturer's interest, of course. If I know that that Edwardian PO 10 ton wagon livery is inappropriate for that 10 ft wheelbase steel-framed 7-plank wagon (or even that exquisitely-modelled RCH 1923 wagon) then I'm unlikely to buy and moreover am more likely to have an apoplectic fit than be entertained!

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I find a flat-top '3' is a difficult computer font to find. 

 

But that's where the ability to convert the font to a drawing object ("convert to curves" in CorelDraw) comes into play.

[Annie]

4 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

I find a flat-top '3' is a difficult computer font to find.  Some time ago, I did a trawl of the fonts on my own computer with this characteristic.  The list was as follows:

 

AIGDT
Charlemagne Std
GreekS
Gungsuh
Hobo Std
Miriam
Modern
Orator Std
Reem Kufi
RomanD
Rubik
Segoe Print
Simplex
Technic
Tekton Pro

 

I've no idea where many of these came from as I have a lot of software on my computer but it may be useful for someone.

Thanks for that list.  By trawling through the hundreds of fonts available to download on various websites I've been able to find a selection that are useful enough for my own wagon building purposes, but nearly always I end up having to redraw and modify some letters to make them look right for the pre-grouping era.

[Compound2632]

An attempt to score the plank groves on the photographic paper was unsuccessful - the surface layer rips and rises to either side of the score line:

 

 

An alternative approach might be to cut out each plank individually with a sharp blade - maybe lifting the top layer off the more fibrous backing as for the wagon numberplates. But for now I think I'll put this experiment to one side and get back to some more conventional methods.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
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[richbrummitt]

Is your scoring tool sharp? My wife has some craft tools for working vellum into lacé patterns that are ball or teardrop shape and quite small. They still may not create fine enough for a plank 'gap'. How visible are separations between planks? Can the printing be made to fool the eye without actual relief?

[Craigw]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But the customer may need to be sufficiently educated to be able to determine whether the product is fit for purpose. That may not be in the manufacturer's interest, of course. If I know that that Edwardian PO 10 ton wagon livery is inappropriate for that 10 ft wheelbase steel-framed 7-plank wagon (or even that exquisitely-modelled RCH 1923 wagon) then I'm unlikely to buy and moreover am more likely to have an apoplectic fit than be entertained!

 

One of the wonders of a place like facebook is an exposure to the big , wide world. I have joined a fair few groups on there to see what ones I find interesting and which ones leave me cold. I follow your approach because I like trying to pin myself down to a date and area. The research to me is a great part of it. But there are a far larger number of people who simply do not care about such things. If you try and tell them they usually shout "rule 1" or accuse you of being a rivet counter ( I am and that is water off a ducks back).

 

What it all means is that a substantial number do not care in the least about the things in this thread. they just want pretty wagons to run behind their locos - or pretty coaches for that matter. Nothing we say will change anything. Apologies for being cynical, I wish it was otherwise.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

 

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Craigw said:

 

..............What it all means is that a substantial number do not care in the least about the things in this thread. they just want pretty wagons to run behind their locos - or pretty coaches for that matter............

 

But there are some (I think I'm one) who start off with fuzzy ideas and an imagined nostalgia that slowly grows into a deeper interest in how things were really done. 

I don't like making mistakes deliberately but that shouldn't stop us from making a start and letting the knowledge build up later.

[Compound2632]

I've progressed with the Drake & Mount dumb buffer wagons:

 

 

In the film, these two wagons can be clearly seen to have "Gloucester"-style brake V hangers - V-shaped all the way - so I've used Cambrian Models' Gloucester solebars. Their Gloucester underframe molding (which does for several of their non-Gloucester kits too) comes with solebars for both 15 ft and 16 ft wagons. Since it's usually the shorter wagons I'm building, I have plenty of spares of the longer sort. They need about 1 mm cutting off each end to get them nice and square so that the dumb buffer extensions can be cleanly butted up; these are from 0.156" x 0.060" Evergreen section; reinforced from behind with a strip of 0.156" x 0.020" and another piece of 0.156" x 0.060" to make up the 11" (scale) width of the buffers:

 

 

On the real wagon, the buffers and solebar are of course one single piece of timber, 17'6" long for a wagon 15'0" long over headstocks. The extension pieces are made over-long. The solebars are welded to a floor of 0.060" Plastikard, using an MJT W-iron assembly to set the width. 

 

The Evergreen section is a scale 12" tall; for this wagon, the buffers are, I estimate, 11" square, so the protruding ends are filed down from the top and then filed to length, paying attention to keep everything square.

 

The ends - which had already had the end pillars fitted - and sides are then welded in place. On the first one I did (on the left) I cut the curved ends before fixing the ends in place, with the result that they didn't match up with the top of the sides at all corners. For the second attempt, I fixed the ends and sides and then cut the curve, using a block of wood pushed firmly into the corner to cut against.

 

The corner plates are from 0.010" Plastikard sheet, with a scribe line on the inside of the corner to help the fold. On these wagons the corner plates seem to be narrower than is typical on later wagons, so I cut them 6 mm wide. Again, I blundered with the first wagon - I cut the corner plates to the length I expected - stopping at the top of the curb rail - rather than looking at the photograph which clearly shows them going down to the top of the solebars/buffers. I'm not quite sure whether to try adding a patch...

 

End ironwork is from 0.030" x 0.010" Microstrip, filed a little thinner after fitting.

 

So, almost ready for the Archer resin "rivet" (bolt-head) transfers...

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Compound2632]

I went to the Basingstoke show on Sunday. I hadn't really been planning to go but it suddenly started to look as if my usual round of May-time shows might not happen (one down already - Railex). The other deciding factor was, of course, the presence of the exquisite Sherton Abbas - possibly the best layout on the circuit in the south of England; certainly the best pre-grouping one I've seen. Without quite the usual four-deep crowd, it was a great pleasure to have time to chat to @wenlock and @Barry Ten.

 

I made two purchases - a book and a kit. The book was another volume in Keith Turton's PO wagons series, bought from the Lightmoor Press stand; I had a good chat with Ian Pope (author of the Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire volume that I have mentioned in earlier posts) especially about railway company wagon registers - he may have saved me a trip or three to Kew.

 

I usually can't go to an exhibition without coming away with a wagon kit. This proved surprisingly difficult - not even Parkside or Cambrian were available from any of the trade stands. In fact the only wagon kit vendor there was Roxey; having built the kits from their Chatham Kits range that are of interest to me - the Stephenson Clarke and Parry wagons - I was obliged to buy something a little different. In amongst their numerous range of LSWR, LBSCR, and SECR carriage kits they do have just one that is of interest to the Midland modeller. Rather than just add it to the kit mountain, I decided to get cracking:

 

 

I think I can just about include a passenger-rated milk van in a wagon thread - it could also run in goods trains - though this may be the thin end of the wedge; I may have to start a carriage thread. These S&DJR milk vans were converted c. 1901 from passenger luggage vans built in 1888 or 1892/3 - the surviving information is rather confusing: there were, allegedly, six vans built in 1888 and six in 1892/3, both batches numbered 1-6. They have some similarities with contemporary LSWR vans but the body entirely Highbridge's version of Clayton's standard style. 

 

Assembly has been satisfyingly untraumatic. Forming the tumblehome is something I've always found tricky. This time I used a piece of skirting board with a quarter-round edge, about 1/2" radius. Using my bending bars as a clamp, I held the top two-thirds of the side against the flat part of the board and then pressed down on the exposed bottom part over the rounded edge of the board, running my finger firmly up and down. This seems to have more-or-less worked. The droplights, door hinges, and end steps were soldered in place before assembling the body. There's nothing on the inside of the sides to help align the droplights, so these had to be soldered from the front, which does result in some visible solder. I tinned the inside of the sides, so no solder had to be applied from the front but even so some inevitably flows round. Making the butt joint of ends to sides neat and perpendicular is tricky but helped by the overlap between the flanges on the bottom of the sides and ends - these were soldered together at the right position and angle first, then the iron run up the butt joint. Despite the use of various small blocks of wood, there were a few moments where success depended on the joint cooling before the heat transferred to my fingers exceeded the pain threshold...

 

The kit comes with some turned brass buffers with heads a scale 18" diameter, so I'm off to see what MJT have to offer... (Edit: buffers should be of the Midland carriage type - I have some of Slaters'.) I need to get some 14 mm diameter Mansell disk wheelsets, too!

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Compound2632]

The fiddly bits, not so neatly done:

 

 

The brake yokes have their ends folded over and soldered to the brake hangers - really fiddly, and since putting wheels in, I've found a couple of places where they need further adjustment. With 00 back-to-back, the flanges rub against the yokes unless the brakes are pulled a bit too far off. If I was doing this again, I would ditch the yokes and just have wire cross-rods - the yokey part of the yokes is invisible in photos. Buffer guides are Slaters MR carriage, their item 4912, originally from their 6-wheel carriage kits. 

 

The body and underframe are intended to be joined by nuts and bolts; those supplied are too large. When I do join them together - after painting - I have to remember that the steps go at the end opposite the vacuum cylinder.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
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[wagonman]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I went to the Basingstoke show on Sunday. I hadn't really been planning to go but it suddenly started to look as if my usual round of May-time shows might not happen (one down already - Railex). The other deciding factor was, of course, the presence of the exquisite Sherton Abbas - possibly the best layout on the circuit in the south of England; certainly the best pre-grouping one I've seen. Without quite the usual four-deep crowd, it was a great pleasure to have time to chat to @wenlock and @Barry Ten.

 

 

Check out 'Love Lane' if you ever get the chance. Some truly sublime modelling!

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

Check out 'Love Lane' if you ever get the chance. Some truly sublime modelling!

 

I've just looked at some photos and a Youtube video online - it does look superbly modelled. The trackwork - and the groundwork generally - especially caught my eye. But it's all so 1950s grubby! (The XPO wagons are nicely observed.)

[Guy Rixon]

On 16/03/2020 at 20:44, Compound2632 said:

...The droplights, door hinges, and end steps were soldered in place before assembling the body. There's nothing on the inside of the sides to help align the droplights, so these had to be soldered from the front, which does result in some visible solder. I tinned the inside of the sides, so no solder had to be applied from the front but even so some inevitably flows round. ...

Etched drop-lights are a curse. They are hard to fit in most kits, too thick (most wooden stock I've inspected has only about 1/4" of frame on the outside of the light) and complicate the glazing.  I'm adopting a strategy of replacing them cut paper that is glued to the glazing.

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Etched drop-lights are a curse. They are hard to fit in most kits, too thick (most wooden stock I've inspected has only about 1/4" of frame on the outside of the light) and complicate the glazing.  I'm adopting a strategy of replacing them cut paper that is glued to the glazing.

 

Some kits combine the hinges with the droplights - e.g. Branchlines. I like the paper idea, if using paper with a sufficiently smooth surface - perhaps sticky labels? This would work particularly well for those liveries where the droplights are a different colour, e.g. Great Western. Thanks for the idea, which I have filed away in the back of my mind.

[Compound2632]

I didn't get to any modelling today but tomorrow looks to be free of other obligations.

 

Someone* spent some time going through about the first year of this thread last weekend, leaving his mark against numerous posts. That got me going back looking at what I was doing then and reminding myself how much useful information contributed by others is sitting there waiting for me to make use of!

 

*He knows who he is and I'm flattered.

[Compound2632]

Emboldened by my progress with the Roxey S&DJR milk van kit, I've started another milk van. This is a Connoisseur Models / Pocket Money Kits kit for a Midland D418 fruit and milk van, 25 of which were built in 1893 to Lot 316. These vans were 25 ft long over the body; more common were the 20 ft long D416 vans, of which 120 were built 1881-1893. In contrast, when more fruit and milk vans came to be built from 1901 onwards, initially in the square-panelled style, only one lot of 25 was built 20 ft long, D417, but 93 were built 25 ft long, D419, including 12 for the S&DJR. A further 25 vans of 25 ft length were built in 1900 for the M&GSW joint stock, D421; these had sliding rather than folding doors. 

 

This kit differs considerably from the Roxey kit, which has separate body and underframe. Here the solebars are a tab-and-slot fit into the bottom flange of the sides and the headstocks are integral with the ends. So far, I've assembled the sides, adding the hinges and footboard brackets - no droplights on this one:

 

 

Too much solder used on the hinges! At least it's on the inside. Doing those tiny folded bits of etched brass makes one appreciate kits with droplight and hinges etched as a single unit!

 

I ran into a bit of trouble with the tumblehome on my first attempt. Having formed it rather successfully, as I thought, using my piece of skirting board, I found that when I came to bend up the bottom flange, with the flange held in the bending bars, the bend was as much along the line of the top of the bottom beading as along the half-etched line. So I flattened the side out and tried again, folding the bottom flange with the side clamped in the bending bars, then trying again with the tumblehome, with the 90° corner of the quarter-round end butted up against the flange. This sketch is my attempt to illustrate the two methods I've used:

 

 

In both cases, the bending is done by pressing along the side with a finger. 

 

The bolthead detail on the solebars was pressed out using a bluntish compass point. I did this before bending the bottom flange - again a mistake, as the thinner flange had to be clamped in the bending bars. So I didn't get quite a 90° bend; final tweaking with my small flat-nosed pliers was needed. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Compound2632]

In Durham, collecting No. 1 Son from university. I wearied of the A1(M) so turned off at Scotch Corner and took a scenic route for the last few miles. We ate at an Italian restaurant in the old station building, just opposite his digs - last chance to do such for a while, we subsequently learned.

 

I mentioned buying a book from the Lightmoor stand at the Basingstoke exhibition last Sunday - this was Turton's Fifteenth Collection.  This has a section on Lofthouse Colliery wagons. The examples Turton has, which do go back to the 1890s, have a consistent livery that is different to that of the Lofthouse Colliery wagon in the BFI Bushey 1897 film - 6th wagon. This 4 ft deep 5-plank wagon has LOFTHOUSE COLLIERY on the top plank and No. ?? (two digits) / NEAR / WAKEFIELD on the second from bottom plank; this clearly pre-dates the examples in Turton which, whilst also 4 ft deep, have more planks and a more complicated inscription - also 3-digit numbers. So, scope for some variety in wagons from this colliery, which was connected to the GNR West Riding line at its junction with the GN / NE / L&Y Methley Joint Line. How come one is in a Willesden-bound train on the LNWR main line, rather than London-bound by the GN route?  

Edited March 20, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Just to expand on the previous post and to keep up my post-a-day resolution, now that I'm back home with Turton's 15th in front of me: the two "early" photos he has of Lofthouse Colliery wagons both have the inscription COAL COKE & BRIQUETTES on the third plank up. One is a 5-plank side and end door wagon with a deep top plank - similar construction to the one in the film. Unfortunately everything below the third plank up is hidden behind a fence. The other wagon, at Hawes, is a 6-plank side and end door wagon, with LOFTHOUSE COLLIERY over the top two planks, its number, 412, on the bottom plank towards the left hand end and WAKEFIELD in slanted capitals on the bottom plank at the right hand end. On both, the lettering is shaded.

 

Turton records that most of this company's wagons were built by Chas Roberts and registered with the GNR, though the particular batches he quotes don't include either 412 or the 2-digit number in the film. At least the livery seems to be consistently red with white letters and black shading. So I feel I have enough information to build a model of the one in the Bushey train.

[Compound2632]

The but joint between ends and sides always looks intimidating to get right. The very first etched brass carriage I attempted - a D&S NER 6-wheeler - I soldered a piece of brass angle into the corner, thinking this would make things easier - it didn't really, as there were then three things to slide about, lubricated by molten solder. In practice, a well-designed kit has features that make the job simpler. In the case of the milk van, the folded-back tabs that make up the end of the headstock help hold the solebar in place, so a first soldered joint can be made where it is reasonably straightforward to get things square (not too many hot fingers). The top flange on the side helps position the end; it's a case of pressing down firmly on the end with the side downwards (as in the photo) to make sure the end is in contact with the side all along - including the tumblehome - while running a filet of solder along the join. The heat doesn't need to be applied for very long, so the solebar/headstock joint doesn't get so hot that it will come unsoldered. The finger pressing down on the end acts as a heat sensor to prevent this happening!

 

 

I did both ends to one side, then the second side, giving a more-or-less complete body; I only got the footboard added on one side before I had to clear the table for dinner:

 

 

It was a bad idea to solder the footsteps in place before soldering the step end in place. Not only did the footsteps nearest the edge have a tendency to drift out of place, the end itself became slightly twisted out of the flat above the tumblehome - bowing inwards at mid-height - surprisingly not visible in this photo. Live and learn.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[MikeOxon]

I find nothing will keep parts secure in the correct place better than fingers!   Holding parts, with a wad of tissue between your fingers, often buys just  enough time for the joint to harden.  An old-fashioned wooden clothes peg can be very useful, too.

Edited March 22, 2020 by MikeOxon

[Buhar]

Cut off the fingers and thumbs from canvas or leather site or gardening gloves.  If you use women's ones they will be tighter to your fingers.  If you're a woman, use kids ones; if you're a child - a little burn is a learning experience; for Tony Wright - if the brass isn't molten it's OK to hold.

 

Alan 

[jwealleans]

If you have John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon (and if you don't, why not?) then he illustrates two very useful wooden aids for building and lettering wagons.  I made my own copies of both and they're indispensable.

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

If you have John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon (and if you don't, why not?)

 

Good question. I think when it first came out I was a bit put off by its post-grouping and later emphasis. My book budget has gone up and down over the years; back in 1999 we were on the brink of starting a family.

[jwealleans]

Even if you never build a coal wagon in your modelling career, it's worth it for the scratchbuilding tips alone IMHO.