The Longsight Patriot

[Dave Holt]

I'm a bit bemused by your solution to the issue at the rear end of the expansion link support frame. It's important that the top of the support remains parallel with the top edge of the main frames/footplate valence, otherwise it's going to look wrong. Does packing up the rear end maintain this aspect? How come you didn't file some material from the bottom edge of the rear cross-member to clear the wheels and coupling rods?

Dave.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Dave Holt

[david.hill64]

I'm a bit bemused by your solution to the issue at the rear end of the expansion link support frame. It's important that the top of the support remains parallel with the top edge of the main frames/footplate valence, otherwise it's going to look wrong. Does packing up the rear end maintain this aspect? How come you didn't file some material from the bottom edge of the rear cross-member to clear the wheels and coupling rods?

Dave.

The packing was done to make sure that all is parallel to the running plate. Even with this I have had to remove material from the bottom of the bracket. Without the washers the bracket sits too low. I think it is just tolerances going the wrong way.

[david.hill64]

It is very satisfying when it all moves without jamming up! I'll have to watch out for that fouling of the motion plate though and adjust accordingly. I take it it is the slidebar/front motion bracket joint that has caused the problem?

Still worried about those sand pipes! One 'slightly out of alignment base board joint' and there could be a difficult repair!

 

Sandy

I think it is just a build up of tolerances in the location of the frame spacer and bending of the locating tabs on the front lamination of the motion bracket that requires the packing washer. Clearing material under the bracket was easy enough. There are four supports for the weighshaft that are soldered onto the rear bracket. Make sure that you clean all of the etching cusp from within their locations in the bracket and in the supports themselves. I plead guilty to not having done this enough. My excuse is that the supports looked right when I dry fitted them!

 

You are correct about the front motion bracket as there is some tolerance in listing this as it fits in a big slot in the frames. If you fit this part as close to the cylinders as possible it will give you a bit more clearance between the rear bracket and the centre drivers. Cleaning the etching cusp properly off the fold up spacers (parts 75) is even more important than usual to get the distance right.

 

We are talking about fractions of a mm here - not bigger.

[david.hill64]

It is very satisfying when it all moves without jamming up! I'll have to watch out for that fouling of the motion plate though and adjust accordingly. I take it it is the slidebar/front motion bracket joint that has caused the problem?

Still worried about those sand pipes! One 'slightly out of alignment base board joint' and there could be a difficult repair!

 

Sandy

I may yet raise the sandpipes a fraction but they have proven to be remarkably robust so far. (Thereby guaranteeing that I will break one next time at the bench).

[Sandy Harper]

T

 

I think it is just a build up of tolerances in the location of the frame spacer and bending of the locating tabs on the front lamination of the motion bracket that requires the packing washer. Clearing material under the bracket was easy enough. There are four supports for the weighshaft that are soldered onto the rear bracket. Make sure that you clean all of the etching cusp from within their locations in the bracket and in the supports themselves. I plead guilty to not having done this enough. My excuse is that the supports looked right when I dry fitted them!

You are correct about the front motion bracket as there is some tolerance in listing this as it fits in a big slot in the frames. If you fit this part as close to the cylinders as possible it will give you a bit more clearance between the rear bracket and the centre drivers. Cleaning the etching cusp properly off the fold up spacers (parts 75) is even more important than usual to get the distance right.

We are talking about fractions of a mm here - not bigger.

Hi David, yes, I can see where you can accumulate small errors by not clearing the cusps, especially in that area. All filed away for the future.

Thanks

Sandy

[david.hill64]

I have been laid low this week by yet another heavy cold. This one was a corker: I stopped taking the cold remedy when I started hallucinating. Anyway somewhat better today so a couple of hours at the bench.

 

One of the reasons for not doing anything while not feeling well was the fact that it is valve gear time: not forgiving of stupid errors. Anyway today the majority of the motion parts have been made up and assembled and checked for clearances. here they are loosely assembled. The motion bracket and cylinders are not fixed in these shots and have moved a little.

 

 

 

 

Packing is needed to get the expansion link in the right place.

 

 

I found that I had to file one of the valve guide castings so that the valve rod casting could have all the travel it needed. I would also recommend when cleaning out the inside of the valve rod casting that material is taken out of the front of the forks at the join with the valve rod to ensure that the combination lever can oscillate as much as it wants. I had to use a small burr to clean it up as I had already located the combination lever, but it would have been easier to do it with a small file first.

 

I have also fitted the exhaust injector and am getting the frames cleaned up prior to spraying. I'll complete the valve gear, fit the pickups and motor-gearbox once it is sprayed.

 

 

 

 

[david.hill64]

The frames, bogie and cylinder/slidebar/motion bracket assembly are now in the paint shop so I have finished assembling the motion as far as possible.

 

 

The lifting links are soldered on one side only as I will need to remove them to get the radius rod through the front motion bracket.

 

The strange arrangement of the return cranks is part of a plan so cunning I am thinking of renaming myself Baldrick. An overlay is supplied with a representation of the four fixing bolts. I have found that bending the return crank and its overlay to shape and fitting the eccentric rod in place allows the two parts of the return crank to move freely. The return crank has been tapped 10BA to crew onto the crankpin, so the plan is to screw it in place, locate the eccentric links, secure the return crank (solder or loctite - the jury's out on that one), clean up the excess crankpin and then turn the overlay into place and secure with varnish. I hope this plan has more success that most of Baldrick's!

[david.hill64]

Here are the bits from the paint shop.

 

 

One side of the motion completed.

 

 

My plan to screw the return crank onto the crankpin isn't going to work so I will open out the hole until it is a tight sliding fit and secure it with solder. 

[Sandy Harper]

My plan to screw the return crank onto the crankpin isn't going to work so I will open out the hole until it is a tight sliding fit and secure it with solder. 

 

If you are interested in my method?

I replace the 12BA crank pin with a 10BA.

I then thread two slaters crank pin bearings. First bearing is screwed onto the pin as normal with the flange against the wheel. The second bearing is screwed on with the flange to the outside.

At this point you need to make some measurements as to how much bearing surface you require between the outside and inside bearing flanges for the connecting and coupling rod bosses, and any intermediate spacer/washer to allow running clearance, and adjust the length of the bearings to suite.

When you are happy, file two flats opposite each other on the outer bearing flange and tighten it on to the crank pin. File off any remaining crank pin protruding through the centre of the bearing so that it is flush with the face of the bearing.

Remove the outer bearing and coat the crank pin threads with some permanent black marker to prevent soldering them up solid.

Tin the outer face of the bearing and the rear of the return crank.

Return the outer bearing to the crank pin and tighten. Then solder the return crank to the outer face, of the outer bearing, in the correct location (about 10 degrees forward from the wheel crank)

You should now have a crank that can be removed and replaced as many times as you wish and it should always end up in the same place.

A refinement is to make a simple two face spanner to undo and tighten the crank from some scrap N/S etch (That's what the filing the two flats on the outer flange was for!

 

Regards

Sandy

[david.hill64]

My plan to screw the return crank onto the crankpin isn't going to work so I will open out the hole until it is a tight sliding fit and secure it with solder.

 

If you are interested in my method?

I replace the 12BA crank pin with a 10BA.

I then thread two slaters crank pin bearings. First bearing is screwed onto the pin as normal with the flange against the wheel. The second bearing is screwed on with the flange to the outside.

At this point you need to make some measurements as to how much bearing surface you require between the outside and inside bearing flanges for the connecting and coupling rod bosses, and any intermediate spacer/washer to allow running clearance, and adjust the length of the bearings to suite.

When you are happy, file two flats opposite each other on the outer bearing flange and tighten it on to the crank pin. File off any remaining crank pin protruding through the centre of the bearing so that it is flush with the face of the bearing.

Remove the outer bearing and coat the crank pin threads with some permanent black marker to prevent soldering them up solid.

Tin the outer face of the bearing and the rear of the return crank.

Return the outer bearing to the crank pin and tighten. Then solder the return crank to the outer face, of the outer bearing, in the correct location (about 10 degrees forward from the wheel crank)

You should now have a crank that can be removed and replaced as many times as you wish and it should always end up in the same place.

A refinement is to make a simple two face spanner to undo and tighten the crank from some scrap N/S etch (That's what the filing the two flats on the outer flange was for!

 

Regards

Sandy

Thanks Sandy. Actually I am nearly there. The crankpins are now 10BA and on the centre axle the threaded crankpin bushes are arranged as you describe. I will solder the return crank to the bush. The small problem I have is that having assembled the motion I can no longer screw the return crank in place without breaking the eccentric rod joint at one end or the other.

 

Cheers David

[Dave Holt]

I always use screwed on return cranks (soldered to the face of an Ultrascale threaded crank pin bush in 4 mm scale; very similar to the arrangement described) on my locos. However, to get them on and off with the valve-gear attached requires the driving wheels to be able to be rocked to and fro. As I use a grub screw final drive gear or Portescap motors that can be free wheeled, this is not a problem.

Dave.

[Sandy Harper]

I forgot to say, as David has described, you need to rock the wheels forward and back to get the crank to screw on. Oooops!

Sandy

[david.hill64]

I was being dense: my excuse is that I was dog-tired when I posted. I had hoped to get both sides of the motion done but common sense prevailed and I gave up. Of course rocking the motion works: that's how I have usually done it before. Doh!

 

I should have said that the eccentric links and radius rod were held in place with a 12BA screw that form the outside passed through the motion bracket spacer, a 12BA washer, the eccentric link outer, radius rod, eccentric link inner, 12BA nut and motion bracket spacer inner. The 12BA nut give the correct spacing of the links and held the screw tight while it was soldered to the motion bracket spacer both inside and out. The head of the screw was then removed and the screw filed back so that it was flush with the face of the motion bracket spacer. The overlay was tinned and sweated on and finally the cover plate detail added.

 

The crank that leads form the weighshaft to the reach rod (part number 59) was added to the weighshaft but left loose. The instructions suggest that this part should be rivetted to the reach rod and then bent over and soldered underneath the running plate, but I think it will be possible to arrange it so that the joint with the reach rod is able to be split. If this isn't possible there is a duplicate part supplied.

[david.hill64]

The various bits and bobs have emerged from the paint shop so it is now time to clean out the paint from the bearings and the pick up holes and see if it all works when fitted together.

 

 

The hope is that the chassis is complete and running well before I get on the plane tomorrow night for a week of casting and kit packing.

 

 

[david.hill64]

Pickups fitted, wheels and motor fitted, then coupling rods and pick up wiring.

 

 

 

With that running smoothly the rest of the motion was added.

 

 

It's always nice to see this running OK.

 

So a break for 10 days while I do other things.

[Deano747]

It's coming along nicely, David. 

Enjoy the lovely cold UK weather! 

 

Regards, Deano.

[david.hill64]

The break for 10 days was supplemented by a week in hospital tied to a drip for antibiotics (chest infection - nothing to do with Soi Cowboy) so I have been away from the bench for far longer than expected.

 

On the bright side the trip home was enjoyable as always. Over a dozen kits packed - and indeed almost all sold - a few sets of castings produced for customers and some time with the family. The family chariot has been expensive troublesome this year so the opportunity was taken to trade it in. So I had better get cracking on with things!

 

No photos today, but at least a progress report. With the chassis essentially complete I have returned to the body. I had already done the necessary filing to get the body to sit nicely on the running plate, so I soldered the saddle in place. Then the boiler/firebox joint was made good by tightening the locating nuts and soldering up, then removing the excess thread from the screws. At the front end I was able to use my newly acquired 6BA nut spinner to tighten the nut to hold the smokebox to the boiler. No way to get in to solder that in place, but more anon.

 

I then went off-piste with the instructions and rather than get the boiler assembly fixed in place, decided it would be much better to get the boiler bands and some other boiler furniture in place while I can still manhandle the boiler and have free access. Similarly the instructions also state fitting the splasher beading after fitting the boiler and it seems better to do it before hand. I have to rewrite these instructions anyway so when I do I can change the order. Assuming of course that I do not later find that I have made a big drop off by doing these things now!

 

I have fitted the safety valve base and the firebox bands. These are nice with etched rivet detail. Fortunately spares are included as one of the half bands that go below the safety valves did not seat write first time and I kinked it when removing. I also fitted the boiler band immediately in front of the firebox and the band between smokebox and boiler. This latter band was soldered on from both sides as it secures the join between the two parts. I still have two bands left to fit and then I will drill out the holes in the firebox and add the washout plug detail. I may or may not add safety valves, dome and chimney before fitting the boiler to the loco.

 

I toyed with the idea of bringing my RSU from UK and trying it out, but it is so heavy that there wouldn't be room for anything else in the case. I am sure this would be easier for the bands and result in less time cleaning up after.

 

All in all it was a most enjoyable evening and I am well motivated to get Sir Frank simmering on shed.

[Deano747]

Sounds like you had a busy time David, and glad to hear you're up and running again.

Look forward to more progress on the Patriot. As always I enjoy following your builds. 

 

ATB.

 

Regards, Deano.

[Sandy Harper]

THere are some nasty bugs floating around at the moment and it sounds like you got one of the nastier variety! I got one three weeks ago and it is still hanging around!!

 

Glad to hear you are on the mend though. My Pat is still in the box but keeps getting pushed to the back of the queue. I was given a GWR 2-6-2 at club the other day to convert back to a normal DC pickup engine after it had a permanently fixed box van attached to it to carry remote control gear. Shouldn't take too long as only pickups to be fitted.

 

Anyone interested in  a set of r/c control gear and batteries in a van? (no controller) PM me.

 

Regards

Sandy

[Mookie]

What a great blog. I'm looking to have a go at a brass kit one day, so a detailed build like this, is highly value. Thank you.

[JeffP]

Glad to hear you are getting over your illness. The older you get, the harder those things hit. I had a virus and infected bowel at the end of September, knocked me for six.

[Mookie]

 

First job: emboss the rivets on the centre section of the footplate. There are a lot of these!

 

001.JPG

 

 

 

I know nothing of brass kit building and want to know more. These rivets, are they marked in the brass and you make them more prominent, or do you have to second guest their location? And what tools do you use?

[david.hill64]

Thanks for everybody's king thoughts.

 

Tonight saw the remaining boiler bands fitted. See here prior to cleaning up:

 

 

and after a preliminary clean.

 

 

Then I drilled out the holes for the washout plugs. I did this in stages as I find that trying to drill a 2mm hole in thin material starting with a 0.5mm pilot is asking for trouble. The top row of washout plugs is on one etched strip and there is a tiny mismatch with the hole alignment but I think I am going to pretend I haven't noticed - if I change my mind it's not an impossible fix but not an easy one.

 

 

So this assembly will be thoroughly washed, cleaned and generally tidied up while I deal with bits on the running plate but that will be a job for Saturday morning as tomorrow is BEER!

[david.hill64]

I know nothing of brass kit building and want to know more. These rivets, are they marked in the brass and you make them more prominent, or do you have to second guest their location? And what tools do you use?

The brass etched have half etched indents for the rivet locations. These have to be pressed out - embossed - with a suitable tool.

 

When I returned to kit building a couple of years ago I started with this:

 

 

Yes it is  hammer a nail and some lead sheet to support the etch while it is attacked. Brutal, likely to give indifferent results but very cheap.

 

Then I moved on to a gravity riveter:

 

 

The weight is set to drop from a set height giving even rivets. Trouble is like the hammer method, you end up with a deformed etch that has to be straightened.

 

So now I use this:

 

 

A proper rivet press that supports the etch with an indented anvil and gives crisp rivet detail. 

[david.hill64]

Well at 5:15pm on Friday I was told that I was working Saturday, so this ruined both my mood for Friday beer night and my plans for modelling on Saturday. I did manage to make some progress today though.

 

I realised that I had forgotten to fit two firebox washout plugs. I decided first to solder some scrap etch to the etch with the plug and holding the plug in place I could then solder the scrap etch in position inside the firebox to hold the plug in place. This could now be soldered with my fingers a safe distance away.

 

 

 

I then turned my attention to the running plate. The valve chest cover was folded and fitted.

 

 

The beading around the splashers and lower cab front came next.

 

 

Steam pipe locations added to the smokebox

 

 

Boiler sat in position to see how it will look.

 

 

 

Certainly taking shape now.