Modelling Stones Ventilators? (4mm)

[Jub45565]

Over the windows of period 1 and period 2 LMS coaches there were Stones ventilators, which as I understand it consisted of (9?) sections of glass which were operated together and could be rotated to be shut, or open either into or away from the direction of travel/airflow.

 

There is a description of how to model them in the Wild Swan Coach Modelling Part 2, which uses scribed clear plastic with a painted edge.  I'm going to give this a go, but am wondering whether there are any other techniques out there, or even etches?  Looking at photos, especially the two below, they look a lot more chunky, and have more variation in depth, than scribed glass would show.

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p876001635/h689738B4#h689738b4

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/h4D97D356#h4d97d356

 

My first target is a D1807 TO (one of the first 2 batches before anyone asks!), which will hopefully be followed by a D1730 with its interesting underframe.

 

Edited to add that I've only seen Comet sides, and they don't provide anything (or note anything in the instructions) and the photos on the website links are a bit small to be of use to see what Geoff did.  I've not seen what Bill Bedford, 5522 or 247 supply or suggest...

Edited August 23, 2016 by Jub45565

[phil_sutters]

I realize that you have probably solved the Stones ventilator problem already, but in case you haven't or someone else comes here looking for ideas - what about sections of transparent or at least translucent ribbed cable ties. They come in a wide range of sizes. I have some that, including the edgings, are 5mm wide, but I know that they go smaller, or if you need the ribs further apart, trim the sides off a larger one.The larger sizes also have potential for louvres, I would have thought.

Edited November 26, 2016 by phil_sutters

[TheSignalEngineer]

The pictures in the OP show them in the open position except for the one to the extreme left in the first one.

 

I am about to start doing some myself so took some pictures of them on the Midland Dining Car at the NRM recently.

This is in the closed position.

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[Jub45565]

Thanks both,

 

I havent fully solved it...  but there are options in the pipeline.

 

The cable tie option I had mentioned to be at Scaleforum - and in theory I really like it, the tooth edges do line up quite like slightly open vents.  However they are very thick - so need a lot of sanding to get them anywhere near thin enough, or a lot opening out of the cutouts in the etched sides.  I have got some etched concepts away for manufacture as I needed some other things producing, so will be seeing how well these work - and I also plan to use my S4 soc BS4 group contacts to try laser scribing some thin plastic.

 

If it comes to it I think the cable tie route is definitely a goer, but I potentially have a few of these to do so would prefer something which doesnt need a lot of individual fettling, both from the time it would take and the chance of me doing it repeatably...

 

I'll keep this thread posted!

 

Thanks for the photo too, though I have also been on a fact finding mission to Peakrail where I got photos and dimensions from their twin window open coach, which looks amazing.

[Jub45565]

My etches have returned, and the options are these:

 

 

 

On the left is with vertical bars to represent the lines/gaps/joins between the sections.  This will be easy to fit, and to my eye looks pretty convincing and would probably paint those bars black.

 

On the right is just a frame - this would need to work either with laser cut glazing, or potentially going back to the cable tie concept.  When I was looking at those before, I was looking from the basis of using the edges of the tie as the border of the glasing unit.  This mean it was fixed from the outside of the coach, so would need an awful lot of thinning down - very time consuming for a one off coach, let alone a rake or two.  However with this frame fixed to the outside, the cable tie could be used mounted on the inside of the coach, which would remove the need for this thinning down.

 

I think the latter concept needs an actual test so I'll aim to get this done in the next day or two - but does anyone have any thoughts on either route in the interim?

[sjp23480]

I have grappled with trying to replicate these vents on my ex-Dapol 12 whee dining cars.

 

The only solution I came up with was to use PowerPoint to draw the vents and print them out on acetate, see below.

 

They don't look too bad, although they would probably be better on brass sides as it is difficult to get them flush on rtr coaches.

 

As you can see, I have a few spare so if anyone would like me to send some through, I am happy to despatch for a small consideration for p&p? Please PM me.

 

Steve

 

[sjp23480]

Just realised how poor the pictures were, so here is a cruel close up:

[Jub45565]

Thanks Steve, I was playing around with my etched options last night and am pretty sold on them myself - but thanks for sharing your solution, and offer. It does also look the part. Is the frame already on the Dapol body, or have you added that?

 

The cable tie solution doesnt look as effective to my eyes, and took a fair bit of fettling which I would not want to do umpteen times per coach - so the full etch it is.  I have compared it at several angles to the prototype and it looks convincing to me.  The half etch isnt as obvious in the photo when coloured black, but the colouring helped to show how it would actually look while doing the comparison.

 

[sjp23480]

Hi Pete,

 

The frame is moulded on the coach side, the problem with the acetate is how to secure it in the aperture.

 

I have tried to get the lines finer on the acetate printing, but given the quality of my inkjet printer this is as small as I can get it.

 

The cable tie looks good, but I can imagine how much of faff it was to get it to fit. 

 

The brass ones do look fine, I think coachman uses a similar set up on his coaches - so you are in good company.

 

Good luck,
​Steve

[TheSignalEngineer]

I'm just progressing with my ex-LMS excursion train which will contain three coaches of Period 1 / Period 2 vintage. These had Stones Ventilators above the windows. This is a picture of one in the closed position on the MR Dining Car at the NRM.

 

 

I did a rough drawing of it this morning and have just done a test build to see if the size is correct for Comet coach sides. My guess is that for those it will need to be approximately 9mm wide and 2,7mm high. 

 

This is about what they will look like for size on a Period 1 two window coach.

 

And with a ruler

 

I have seen Larry Goddard and Barry O using a silver etch for these but don't know of anyone who sells them or makes anything else suitable.

 

My question is do any of the 3-D printing fraternity think it would be a viable detailing part to do by that method?

There must be quite a few people who have made these coaches and had to do a bodge, in fact my three coaches need a total of 38 so they would be a big job to scratch bulid.

 

Thanks for reading and I will be interested in anyone's comments about the possibilities or a source of other parts already available.

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jub45565]

I've also done some etched ones. I'm happy with the look, but need to paint the finished coach to fully prove this opinion, before making them available.

 

I'm not sure 3D printing would help, but may have missed something.

 

A lot I have seen just plain glased, which looks wrong. Others have used cable ties to show them open, but my experiments with that method were very time consuming & didn't look great - but that isn't to say a better choice of cable tie isn't available (easier to manipulate).

[Mike G]

This is what they look like on a coach. Certainly add to the appearance. I didn't find them that bad to fit, but I have to admit to having to re-position these twice to get the same distance from the edge of the roof.

 

Mike

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Those look a lot better than others I have seen. Are they your own etch?

 

[Guy Rixon]

It's quite hard to see how the full-sized one works from the photo, transparent things being hard to photograph. IIUC, it's two rows of transparent slats, arranged as combs, one row sliding behind the other to open the vent. I see the vertical bars as the edges of the outer slats. Behind the slats is a void a few inches deep, then a translucent panel at the back; presumably it also serves as a toplight. Am I reading it correctly?

 

If I've understood the construction, it would be very easy to print such a vent as a solid thing with the slats as embossed detail on the front. Done in Shapeways transparent detail-plastic (which is acrylic resin), it would be translucent but not perfectly transparent. The frame would be modelled, but the user would have to paint it. The vent would have significant depth and would fit into an aperture in the coach side from the outside, with the frame stopping it falling right through. The operating mechanism in the void would not be included, but I don't think the omission would notice.

 

Would this be any good? My minimum price for a Shapeways print in detail plastic is now around £7, but that price could include quite a lot of vents. I would be happy to draw it and add it to my shop if precise dimensions could be given (I am not in position to go to the NRM and measure for myself).

Edited July 21, 2019 by Guy Rixon

[Jub45565]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Those look a lot better than others I have seen. Are they your own etch?

 

 

The ones Mike used are my etch - I've got a few things drawn & made available through Rumney Models, which would be the plan for these too. I've drawn 5, 6 & 9 slat variants (the short ones aren't technically Stones, but look & function the same!).

 

Mike's D1807 will probably be painted before mine is!

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

It's quite hard to see how the full-sized one works from the photo, transparent things being hard to photograph. IIUC, it's two rows of transparent slats, arranged as combs, one row sliding behind the other to open the vent. I see the vertical bars as the edges of the outer slats. Behind the slats is a void a few inches deep, then a translucent panel at the back; presumably it also serves as a toplight. Am I reading it correctly?

The outside is a set of vertical glass plates approximately 7.5" high and 2.5"wide. They are turned left or right by the handle which can be seen hanging down between the inner and outer parts.

The inside is a drop-down flap, glass with a wooden frame. It has a catch top centre to open it. 

I have a few measurements I took at York so will sort out what I have and post it later.

 

Eric

[Guy Rixon]

So the slats rotate about their vertical centrelines rather than sliding?

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I realise that as this thread is related to 3D printing of the ventilators, but as there are other threads on them hereabouts, (even ones with TheSignalEngineers input!), is it possible to tie them all together somehow.

I'm interested in the outcome for some 12 wheel catering cars.

 

Mike.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I realise that as this thread is related to 3D printing of the ventilators, but as there are other threads on them hereabouts, (even ones with TheSignalEngineers input!), is it possible to tie them all together somehow.

I'm interested in the outcome for some 12 wheel catering cars.

 

Mike.

 

Baz has recently been going down the N/S etch path on his stock.

 

Larry Goddard also used a similar method I believe but I think he may have deleted the pictures.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Mike

The main thread I found was this one.

 

 

Would it be preferable for the Mods copy these posts to that topic and lock this one?

 

Eric

Edited July 22, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer
Request for topics to be combined sent to Mods.

[AY Mod]

10 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Mike

The main thread I found was this one.

 

 

Would it be preferable for the Mods copy these posts to that topic and lock this one?

 

Eric

 

Now merged.

[Buhar]

On ‎21‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 11:44, Guy Rixon said:

 I would be happy to draw it and add it to my shop if precise dimensions could be given (I am not in position to go to the NRM and measure for myself).

Hi Guy,

We could end up with two (or more) sets of dimensions, those obtained by someone going to the NRM with a tape measure and those examining their Comet sides.  If there is a discrepancy, I suspect the latter might be more relevant.

 

Alan

[Jub45565]

45 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Hi Guy,

We could end up with two (or more) sets of dimensions, those obtained by someone going to the NRM with a tape measure and those examining their Comet sides.  If there is a discrepancy, I suspect the latter might be more relevant.

 

Alan

 

I measured against the P1 coach at Peak Rail (very well done, and a good day out too!) - and compared these with the Comet etches to make mine (which fit nicely, as per Mike G's photos).

[Guy Rixon]

I would make the body of the vent according to the holes in the Comet sides, and that sets the size of the rotating panels. It would be useful to have accurate measurements of the frame.

 

What mix of closed and part-open vents would please? The printing won't cope well with fully-opened vents (can't print fine enough to represent the end-on glass panels), but I could do panels open enough to present a saw-tooth profile.

[Barry O]

I think the ones I saw were either all open or all closed or all somewhere in  between..ie they work off a single control handle.

I am not certain you can print fine enough to give the glass 'edge's? You also need quite a few of them (14 to 16 per coach).

I has mine etched in Nickel Silver as they look more like the glass (I did try scribed perspex but it doesn't look right for some reason.)

Baz