New West Midlands Franchise - Standing Room Only?

[jjb1970]

I think that one problem is the mixing of high density commuter services with regional (and even intercity) services into a common shared train platform which seems to be becoming increasingly common. The result is that leisure and longer distance users face a travel experience which is not great as it tends to be the rush hour crush which drives the design.

[The Stationmaster]

Cost, Keith. It would be nice to have seats for everyone, all the time, but to do that you'd have to spend a fortune which would either put up taxes or fares (or both) to pay for it all. And for most of the time that capacity would be rusting away in sidings or going round with no-one on it... Given the amount of moaning already (especially from the commuters on season tickets which ironically are one of the cheapest tickets on sale based on journeys made) I doubt if either would be acceptable, so the DfT has to allow other methods such as removal of seats to increase standing room and banning of bikes on rush hour trains.

 

Also remember that NR charge by the size and type of train so longer trains usually mean more access charges which doesn't encourage longer trains.

 

Not really - DafT's real interest is in saving money.  Trains with fewer seats are cheaper so they duly proclaim they have to take account of peak period standing and omit seats or severely reduce the number of seats on new build trains where they can play their money saving con trick.

 

So they effectively plant the cart in front of the horse and it could result in driving away off-peak passengers and thus making the peak problem even worse in terms of the numbers difference between peak and off-peak.  What the silly s*ds can't get into their heads is that the situation is the other way round, for example Reading, Didcot and now Swindon have built up increasing peak period loadings because they offer a good service of high quality very fast trains into London.  In other words the trains that have the qualities to attract and secure off-peak business and leisure travel, in a very competive situation have also attracted peak hour travel because of those very qualities.  Ignore the qualities that attract people other than commuters and you start to disappoint, and lose an important, and usually very profitable market, especially where competition is keen.

 

The answer where line and station capacity allow are to run more and/or longer trains although often that isn't possible, except at considerable cost, so you adopt the other course and try to smooth your peaks by price.  Equally if you do introduce additional or longer trains they have to be marketable because if they aren't you will lose off-peak market share.  BR understood such things - idiot Civil Servants very clearly don't.

[melmerby]

Cost, Keith. It would be nice to have seats for everyone, all the time, but to do that you'd have to spend a fortune which would either put up taxes or fares (or both) to pay for it all. And for most of the time that capacity would be rusting away in sidings or going round with no-one on it... Given the amount of moaning already (especially from the commuters on season tickets which ironically are one of the cheapest tickets on sale based on journeys made) I doubt if either would be acceptable, so the DfT has to allow other methods such as removal of seats to increase standing room and banning of bikes on rush hour trains.

 

Also remember that NR charge by the size and type of train so longer trains usually mean more access charges which doesn't encourage longer trains.

But there are extra trains in sidings outside the peaks when they could be gainfully employed reducing the crush.

A train in service is earning it's keep, a train in a siding is a depreciating asset.

 

I agree. Providing a seat for everyone during the peaks is nigh on impossible but not using trains outside of peaks when some services are still full to bursting is just plain bonkers.

LM use 350s for their services to Euston and joining/splitting trains is a doddle and regularly used.

Surely overcrowded trains discourages many from travelling by train, an extra 4 cars on certain semi fast services to Euston would make for a better journey for many and encourage more business.

 

Keith

[Kelly]

But there are extra trains in sidings outside the peaks when they could be gainfully employed reducing the crush.

A train in service is earning it's keep, a train in a siding is a depreciating asset.

 

I agree. Providing a seat for everyone during the peaks is nigh on impossible but not using trains outside of peaks when some services are still full to bursting is just plain bonkers.

LM use 350s for their services to Euston and joining/splitting trains is a doddle and regularly used.

Surely overcrowded trains discourages many from travelling by train, an extra 4 cars on certain semi fast services to Euston would make for a better journey for many and encourage more business.

 

Keith

It would certainly be much better if they put more 350s on weekends when the NEC has big events on. The crush on the trains for those weekends is almost, if not, worse than at peak times.

[CovDriver]

I agree on that Kelly the traincrew have asked for extra units to attached during the big show weekends at the NEC but its always ignored I've refused to move a train in the past because I deemed it unsafe with the overcrowding.

[phil-b259]

But there are extra trains in sidings outside the peaks when they could be gainfully employed reducing the crush.

A train in service is earning it's keep, a train in a siding is a depreciating asset.

 

I agree. Providing a seat for everyone during the peaks is nigh on impossible but not using trains outside of peaks when some services are still full to bursting is just plain bonkers.

LM use 350s for their services to Euston and joining/splitting trains is a doddle and regularly used.

Surely overcrowded trains discourages many from travelling by train, an extra 4 cars on certain semi fast services to Euston would make for a better journey for many and encourage more business.

 

Keith

 

 

It would certainly be much better if they put more 350s on weekends when the NEC has big events on. The crush on the trains for those weekends is almost, if not, worse than at peak times.

 

One big factor that must be considered in all these demands for longer trains is depot time. Even the most reliable of stock needs servicing - toilets emptying, minor repairs, exams every xxxx miles, etc. With peak hour trains needing to be as long as possible much of this work has to take place at other times. Yes the bulk may be done overnight, but depots only have so much space and a certain number of fitters so it is inevitable that some of this work has to be done at weekends or during off peak periods during the week.

Edited September 10, 2016 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

I agree on that Kelly the traincrew have asked for extra units to attached during the big show weekends at the NEC but its always ignored I've refused to move a train in the past because I deemed it unsafe with the overcrowding.

 

Maybe that because there aren't any to be had - routine maintenance cannot simply be skipped because a show at the NEC is attracting more users than normal. On some occasions TOCs can strengthen services - but that needs months of advance notice and careful attention to fleet management so as to jiggle things to give maximum fleet availability - without jeopardising the weekday peak periods either side.

 

The railway is a complicated beast - and just as passengers may criticise track workers for standing about doing nothing as they past (hint - your train might be getting in the way), criticising a TOC for not providing longer trains based only on your observations is a tad unfair as you are not seeing the full picture.

Edited September 10, 2016 by phil-b259

[Kelly]

Maybe that because there aren't any to be had - routine maintenance cannot simply be skipped because a show at the NEC is attracting more users than normal. On some occasions TOCs can strengthen services - but that needs months of advance notice and careful attention to fleet management so as to jiggle things to give maximum fleet availability - without jeopardising the weekday peak periods either side.

 

The railway is a complicated beast - and just as passengers may criticise track workers for standing about doing nothing as they past (hint - your train might be getting in the way), criticising a TOC for not providing longer trains based only on your observations is a tad unfair as you are not seeing the full picture.

 

It isn't a matter of more than usual, it is a matter of constantly massive demands at weekends throughout most of the year, with some weekends having several big events at the NEC (for instance it used to be the case that Warley MRS, ComicCon, Motorcycle Live, Christmas, Cats, and a host of others were all the same weekend in november!). Plus the same station serves the airport, which is usually fairly busy just for that traffic. So the lack of stock provided at weekends really, regardless of whatever reasons may be, is inadequate on a regular basis. Even if they sheduled just a couple of extra units for the morning hours and the evening kick out hours it would make a big difference, rather than just the usual highly packed before it even gets to Coventry, 4 car 350.

['CHARD]

I think I can support Kelly a bit here, there are quite a few 350s stabled around the patch during the day, including some under maintenance at Kings Heath, and I think Siemens will be bidding to both potential franchisees, a higher level of availability during the off peak period including weekends - which covers your events.  

 

The situation at present, however, is that London Midland has contracted with Siemens against a certain train plan, and this drives the current depot throughput.  The additional annual fleet mileage accrued from strengthening specific diagrams on event days would, with respect, be fairly minimal, it just isn't contracted for in this franchise.

 

It is however, required to be addressed in Delivery Plans 2.1 and 2.2 of this franchise bid, as catering for peak demand generated by events is expressly covered in the ITT.  However, I think this will be addressed as part of a whole re-casting of Desiro maintenance and a strengthening of traincare facilities in the north of the West Midlands network.

[melmerby]

One big factor that must be considered in all these demands for longer trains is depot time. Even the most reliable of stock needs servicing - toilets emptying, minor repairs, exams every xxxx miles, etc. With peak hour trains needing to be as long as possible much of this work has to take place at other times. Yes the bulk may be done overnight, but depots only have so much space and a certain number of fitters so it is inevitable that some of this work has to be done at weekends or during off peak periods during the week.

The thing I notice that between the morning and evening peaks there are quite a few 350s parked in Camden carriage sidings and they seem to sit there all day and not move (Railcam Camden Jt. camera)

There are also usually several parked around Northampton station (not in Kings Heath depot).

If they are only used during the peaks it is a waste of resources.

 

On one occasion the 8 car train from New St to Euston I was travelling on went into a bay platform at Northampton after we had been informed over the PA that the the train was faulty and was being taken out of service. We were also told there would be a (another 8 car) train waiting in the adjacent platform as a replacement but it would be late leaving Northampton. (Apologies etc.)

It would seem another extra train had already been sent forward to serve the normal stops between Northampton and Euston which allowed "ours" to run fast line most of the way to Euston, only stopping a couple of times and arriving 10 minutes early!

 

If there isn't any spare capacity how could that occur?

 

Keith

[phil-b259]

The thing I notice that between the morning and evening peaks there are quite a few 350s parked in Camden carriage sidings and they seem to sit there all day and not move (Railcam Camden Jt. camera)

There are also usually several parked around Northampton station (not in Kings Heath depot).

If they are only used during the peaks it is a waste of resources.

 

On one occasion the 8 car train from New St to Euston I was travelling on went into a bay platform at Northampton after we had been informed over the PA that the the train was faulty and was being taken out of service. We were also told there would be a (another 8 car) train waiting in the adjacent platform as a replacement but it would be late leaving Northampton. (Apologies etc.)

It would seem another extra train had already been sent forward to serve the normal stops between Northampton and Euston which allowed "ours" to run fast line most of the way to Euston, only stopping a couple of times and arriving 10 minutes early!

 

If there isn't any spare capacity how could that occur?

 

Keith

 

To an extent train maintenance is not something you can plan to the nth detail. If reliability is a bit better than average and no tricky faults turn up then it may be that maintenance is completed ahead of schedule leading to a surplus of units. On the other hand if say there is a bout of sickness leading to staff shortages at the depot and you get a load of failures turn up all at once - or a collision / vandalism, etc means something takes longer to fix, it could be there is a shortfall of units. Equally in a situation where extra stock is needed to cover for a failure - it may be possible to send a unit out half finished and catch up later.

 

So in the case you mention - there are lots of reasons why it may have been possible for LM to come up with a spare unit, seemingly 'on spec' - to know the truth you need to be privy to the relevant control / Fleet logs of the TOC.

 

In general though, long gone are they days of having stock just sitting round 'in case' - the 313s being a case in point. The original BR order was so generous that there were enough available (after some timetable revisions on the GN section) for NSE to redeploy some on the North London Line and the Watford DC lines as well as their intended home. The same will not be true of their replacements on the Moorgate route.

Edited September 10, 2016 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

I think I can support Kelly a bit here, there are quite a few 350s stabled around the patch during the day, including some under maintenance at Kings Heath, and I think Siemens will be bidding to both potential franchisees, a higher level of availability during the off peak period including weekends - which covers your events.  

 

The situation at present, however, is that London Midland has contracted with Siemens against a certain train plan, and this drives the current depot throughput.  The additional annual fleet mileage accrued from strengthening specific diagrams on event days would, with respect, be fairly minimal, it just isn't contracted for in this franchise.

 

It is however, required to be addressed in Delivery Plans 2.1 and 2.2 of this franchise bid, as catering for peak demand generated by events is expressly covered in the ITT.  However, I think this will be addressed as part of a whole re-casting of Desiro maintenance and a strengthening of traincare facilities in the north of the West Midlands network.

 

Do Siemens do balanced exams or are they done in the traditional way?  As you know balanced exams can sometimes improve availability as the downtime for the bigger exams is reduced by spreading it (where the work physically allows of course).

[CovDriver]

Maybe that because there aren't any to be had - routine maintenance cannot simply be skipped because a show at the NEC is attracting more users than normal. On some occasions TOCs can strengthen services - but that needs months of advance notice and careful attention to fleet management so as to jiggle things to give maximum fleet availability - without jeopardising the weekday peak periods either side.

 

The railway is a complicated beast - and just as passengers may criticise track workers for standing about doing nothing as they past (hint - your train might be getting in the way), criticising a TOC for not providing longer trains based only on your observations is a tad unfair as you are not seeing the full picture.

 

I understand what your saying but It's me driving the dam things and at weekends there is a pair of 350's stabled in Coventry North yard from Friday night until Sunday morning (not under maintenance) they're a real pain as they accumulate numerous faults sitting there doing nothing they could easily be used for strengthening when it's busy with the big shows on at the NEC.

When I was a guard it was a nightmare along that route in particular when the good food show/Gardening live is on at the same time we always left passengers behind.

 

Cheers

 

CovDriver

[Kelly]

 

When I was a guard it was a nightmare along that route in particular when the good food show/Gardening live is on at the same time we always left passengers behind.

 

Cheers

 

CovDriver

 

Especially so if any of them happen to be disabled (ie in mobility scooter/wheelchair).

['CHARD]

Do Siemens do balanced exams or are they done in the traditional way?  As you know balanced exams can sometimes improve availability as the downtime for the bigger exams is reduced by spreading it (where the work physically allows of course).

 

Fully balanced, I can't remember the mileage periodicities intervals for the 350/1-3 as it's a while since I was looking at them, but these have been specifically optimised against the LM operation's speeds and stopping patterns - and in as much they are different from the SWT and AGA counterparts at Northam and Ilford.  Basically it comes down to brakes and wheel profiles, then bogie overhaul.  Your other classics like doors, drawgear, pans/ shoes, aircon and gangways tend to fit in the intervals.

Edited September 10, 2016 by 'CHARD

[Hobby]

But there are extra trains in sidings outside the peaks when they could be gainfully employed reducing the crush.

 

 

Nowhere near as many as there would be if everyone in the peaks had a seat though, Keith, which was my main point.

 

Not really - DafT's real interest is in saving money.  

 

Same difference... Cost/Money same thing... I agree with the rest you said, but would add it to what i said, all of things mentioned relate to the number/type of trains we can/can't have...

 

Can anyone remember a time since the Industrial Revolution started where Public Transport and the Roads weren't overcrowded during the Rush Hours? Whatever we do now it will have been done in the past, nothing works forever... For instance if you lengthen the platforms and trains or electrify to make a faster or more frequent service all you do is create an increased demand... It's a never-ending circle.

[roundhouse]

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this if it gets anywhere on future Daft plans

 

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/southernrail/

['CHARD]

Eight week extension to LM advised, with potential for a further 8 weeks.....

 

https://www.go-ahead.com/en/media/news/2017/london-midland-franchise-extension.html

[CovDriver]

Ah well same uniform for another 2 months

[jjb1970]

I'd be happy to see the LM franchise just extended for the long term. I use them for my daily commute and on the whole find their MK - Euston services to be excellent. The Desiro units are kept clean and tidy, the staff are generally very helpful, reliability and punctuality are both good and service provision is excellent. This may not be a fashionable thing to say, and maybe I'm lucky in being served by a good TOC, but I have very few complaints about my rail services and think LM do a very good job.

[great central]

Ah well same uniform for another 2 months

 

So long as they keep paying you does it really matter? I know it doesn't to me

['CHARD]

From this press release of last Friday: https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/proposed-rail-upgrades-would-support-gbp-2bn-economy-boost-with-more-trains-and-better-hs2-links#

 

I wonder if that number of 'extra vehicles' identifies the winning bidder?

 

Following a 90 day consultation Network Rail and Midlands Connect have committed to bringing in longer trains and longer platforms over the next five years. Work has already started to extend platforms and 137 extra vehicles will be brought into service by 2022 through the new West Midlands Franchise.

[melmerby]

Some of the proposals seem to be putting back what was undone years ago

 

e.g. Barnt Green & Water Orton Junctions.

 

The layout around Water Orton is a mess with only the Up Derby & Down Whitacre being clear, The Down Derby shares a platform face with the Up Whitacre.

IMHO a suggestion could be that the 4 tracks from Saltley to Water Orton could be separated from North to South into e.g.  Derby lines Up - Down & Whitacre Lines Up - Down with freight traffic confined to the southern pair straight from/to the Camp Hill route

At Water Orton the platforms would be on the Derby lines only with a crossover at the eastern end for passenger traffic requiring the Whitacre Line.

 

Keith

Edited August 9, 2017 by melmerby

['CHARD]

 

IMHO a suggestion could be that the 4 tracks from Saltley to Water Orton could be separated from North to South into e.g.  Derby lines Up - Down & Whitacre Lines Up - Down with freight traffic confined to the southern pair straight from/to the Camp Hill route

At Water Orton the platforms would be on the Derby lines only with a crossover at the eastern end for passenger traffic requiring the Whitacre Line.

 

 

How would that impact on access to the Sutton Park route?

[melmerby]

How would that impact on access to the Sutton Park route?

No different to now where down freights have to cross over to get to/from it. It wouldn't preclude freight traffic using the "fast" lines if necessary for access etc.

Currently Westbound/down freights have to cross from the down slow to the down fast and then the up fast to access the Sutton line.

There's a similar arrangement for the other spur

 

Making it a true 4 track up-down-up-down just separates most freight and passenger without the current conflict at Water Orton.

 

Keith

Edited August 9, 2017 by melmerby