New West Midlands Franchise - Standing Room Only?

['CHARD]

On top of this, there will be standing room for 50,000 passengers in Birmingham in metro-style carriages, similar to the ones used on the London Overground, for short cross-city journeys

 

​Not everyone's journey on the cross city is short, not looking forward to a 50 min journey standing up!

 

Better chance of getting a seat for a cross city journey that starts further out though, Blake Street to Longbridge being at the 50 minute mark.  Neither would I fancy my chances getting a seat from Chester Road to New Street, but that's a travel time (currently) of 17 minutes.

 

Also if you travel through BHM, your chances of getting a seat from that station as the masses detrain is much improved.

[dmustu]

Better chance of getting a seat for a cross city journey that starts further out though, Blake Street to Longbridge being at the 50 minute mark.  Neither would I fancy my chances getting a seat from Chester Road to New Street, but that's a travel time (currently) of 17 minutes.

 

Also if you travel through BHM, your chances of getting a seat from that station as the masses detrain is much improved.

There is that I suppose. Must admit i'm surprised to see the 323's being replaced, especially as they have some parts of the traction updated relatively recently. I'm not really keen on the new trains having wider doors, as I find that wider door ways seem to encourage people to push their way onto the train before everyone has got off, always seems to be more of a problem on the 170's than the 323's. 3 sets narrower doors doors would be better than 2 sets of wide ones, unless we're getting 3 sets of wide doors!?!

Edited August 10, 2017 by dmustu

[woodenhead]

Wonder if that means the migration of 323s from Northern is off, that will please the Cheshire commuters on the Stoke services

['CHARD]

Wonder if that means the migration of 323s from Northern is off, that will please the Cheshire commuters on the Stoke services

 

323s are leaving Northern, a contracted commitment of Arriva.  The RoSCo gambled and lost - 43 3-car trains on their way to expensive indefinite storage.

[woodenhead]

323s are leaving Northern, a contracted commitment of Arriva.  The RoSCo gambled and lost - 43 3-car trains on their way to expensive indefinite storage.

Especially with no more wiring planned than has already been committed to and the older 319s even getting traction upgrades to make them even more useful.

[D854_Tiger]

323s are leaving Northern, a contracted commitment of Arriva.  The RoSCo gambled and lost - 43 3-car trains on their way to expensive indefinite storage.

 

Perhaps they could sling some transit van engines underneath them.

[D854_Tiger]

Class 153 to be retired by 2020

 

The beginning of the end for the Dogbox then.

 

What are they going to use on the Heart of Wales one wonders.

[HillsideDepot]

Class 153 to be retired by 2020

 

The beginning of the end for the Dogbox then.

 

What are they going to use on the Heart of Wales one wonders.

 

I think this refers only to the West Midlands franchise. I was talking to someone last night who said the franchise he works for (which best remain nameless as it's not necessarily official policy) is looking to retain some 153s. He did however add that once equipped with an accessible toilet the proportion of seating to "other uses" is rather out of balance, such that his TOC are wondering if they should become 155s again. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

I suppose another alternative would be platforms only on the Nuneaton line with the Derby lines given a clear route through.

Crossovers at the Western end of the station and any passenger trains stopping at Water Orton but wanting to go to/from Derby (currently none!) travelling vis Coleshill Parkway and Whitacre Junction

 

Keith

That was the original idea back around 1979. It was quite problematical to get an up/up/down/down to up/down/up/down transposition between Water Orton West Junction and the station platforms and get a significant improvement in speed. Every set of points was likely to be on a curve.

For optimum performance it would probably be better to have the transposition on the straight near Fort Dunlop.

Edited August 10, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[david.hill64]

Some press reports are saying that Bombardier is hopeful of an order.

 

My tenner is on the cross-city trains being built by Tokyu car. They work closely with JR East and recently had Interfleet SNC Lavelin help them with the Bangkok Purple Line cars so have some understanding of the UK rolling stock engineers mindset.

 

Being Japanese built trains, the DfT is likely to have been duped into believing that concluded that they are able to defy physics. be superior in all respects to local stuff.

[jjb1970]

If they go shopping in Japan then my advice is to replace the 350's with Series 500 Shinkansen trains.

[david.hill64]

If they go shopping in Japan then my advice is to replace the 350's with Series 500 Shinkansen trains.

A bit wide and with 2+3 seating.....................

[jjb1970]

A bit wide and with 2+3 seating.....................

Obviously we'd expect all the carriages to be configured as per JR green class, the width thing would be a bit trickier but we are fortunate indeed in this country in having DafT with their track record of re-inventing the basic laws of science therefore I see no reason why DafT couldn't just make the width issue go away. After all, any department that can point to the IEP and electrification programs as evidence of their technical excellence gets my vote.

[woodenhead]

Obviously we'd expect all the carriages to be configured as per JR green class, the width thing would be a bit trickier but we are fortunate indeed in this country in having DafT with their track record of re-inventing the basic laws of science therefore I see no reason why DafT couldn't just make the width issue go away. After all, any department that can point to the IEP and electrification programs as evidence of their technical excellence gets my vote.

Width is only an issue if they have to pass other trains or platforms or structures.

 

Taking the bi-mode argument perhaps the Japanese can build a train that can 'breathe in' in such circumstances and the no-one has to do anything difficult.

[jjb1970]

See, with creative thinking anything is possible!

 

I've already proposed to DafT that they develop active track, the track would automatically detect the approach of wide trains and move outwards to increase the loading gauge to make more room, it will then move back to its normal alignment after the train has passed. Clearly this would not be cheap (using DafT's standard financial modelling tool to estimate major program costs we'd be looking at at least £700 to modify the WCML between Euston and Glasgow with this ground breaking technology) so we will reduce costs elsewhere by de-electrifying and powering the new Series 500 Shinkansens with nuclear fusion reactors and making them driverless. Again, not an easy task and DafT estimate that developing a nuclear fusion powered driverless train would take until at least April 2018 and delivery of a fleet of 9000 carriages would cost circa. £250 with every train builder in the world bidding for this prestigious contract. I had some doubts that it could be done for this price, but I'm assured that a consultant retained by DafT on a competitive value for money rate of £19,748.93 per hour plus VAT has done all the work and thatthere is zero commercial or technical risks. Unlike the IEP program which was a bold step into the unknown to develop ground breaking technology beyond all known human scientific knowledge, converting the WCML to active track and nuclear fusion powered trains would be very straightforward. Thank God for DafT is what I say.

[wombatofludham]

Coming back to Planet Earth for a moment...

 

Given Abellio Greater Anglia are 40% backed by Mitsui but have just committed to buying a fleet of Bombardier Aventras for their "Metro" services on the GE mainline and a mixed fleet of Stadtler "Flirts" for everything else, I would have thought that the Cross City fleet replacement would be more likely as not be more Aventras and the replacements for the Trent Valley semi-fasts possibly more of the Flirts.  I suspect the additional diesels will be more Class 172s if Bombardier still offer them.  In effect, apart from the diesel fleet, Abellio could just place an add-on order and get a good deal out of the manufacturers.  Having said all that I bet Siemens will be bidding hard to win something given the large number of Desiros in the fleet and the purpose built maintenance centre in Northampton.

 

Mitsui's involvement in AGA was purely financial rather than a way in for Japanese built units.

[black and decker boy]

I've wondered if the surplus 170 from Anglia could add to the snow hill fleet?

[Christopher125]

Actually quick search reveals this colour.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40885118

 

Revenge of SIlverlink colour.

 

That's been around for some months in connection with the devolved 'West Midlands Rail' services - somewhat equivalent to the old Centro livery I suppose? If South Western is a guide the new branding for the wider franchise will take some time to emerge.

 

Parry People Mover are now defunct, no further development.

There's nothing to suggest that on their website, IIRC a winding-up order was served but that may have been resolved?

 

With the considerable extra regulation now being imposed upon rail vehicles, the extra kit and the extra performance required to keep those trains out of the way of the faster stuff, the trend of late has been for new trains to be increasingly heavier, most especially the bi-mode sort.

 

While true for many of the initial post-privatisation designs the latest generation are noticeably lighter - the Bombardier Aventras and Siemen's Desiro Cities are significantly lighter than their forebears with lightweight inside frame bogies and aluminium bodies becoming standard.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Christopher125

[Zomboid]

Coming back to Planet Earth for a moment...

 

Given Abellio Greater Anglia are 40% backed by Mitsui but have just committed to buying a fleet of Bombardier Aventras for their "Metro" services on the GE mainline and a mixed fleet of Stadtler "Flirts" for everything else, I would have thought that the Cross City fleet replacement would be more likely as not be more Aventras and the replacements for the Trent Valley semi-fasts possibly more of the Flirts. I suspect the additional diesels will be more Class 172s if Bombardier still offer them. In effect, apart from the diesel fleet, Abellio could just place an add-on order and get a good deal out of the manufacturers. Having said all that I bet Siemens will be bidding hard to win something given the large number of Desiros in the fleet and the purpose built maintenance centre in Northampton.

 

Mitsui's involvement in AGA was purely financial rather than a way in for Japanese built units.

Aren't the diesels for Anglia bi-mode stadlers?

Given the nature of the WM network, that would seem like quite good technology to employ for their diesels. For a start it could further reduce the amount of diesel in New St, which can only be a good thing.

[wombatofludham]

Aren't the diesels for Anglia bi-mode stadlers?

Given the nature of the WM network, that would seem like quite good technology to employ for their diesels. For a start it could further reduce the amount of diesel in New St, which can only be a good thing.

 

Given the diesels will primarily for the Snow Hill route to provide extra capacity (although the Salop services will still need diesels out of New Street) I was thinking that commonality of fleet would be the driver.  The need for bi-mode on the Snow Hill route is far away in the distance given the lost opportunity to string up the knitting when the 150s were replaced, especially as high profile electrification to places like Bristol and Sheffield has been put on the long finger.  Don't forget diesels will no longer be needed for the Chase line from next year, removing the opportunity to run bi-modes on the line via Walsall, and with Bromsgrove getting the knitting Worcester services will almost certainly be focussed more on the Snow Hill line albeit with limited "express" services up the Lickey as now.  The main diesel operations will soon be Snow Hill, Shrewsbury and Leamington to Nuneaton of which only Shrewsbury has any substantial under the wire operation.

 

​Of course it's all speculation and it might be something else altogether that materialises, and commonality of fleet and coupling capability might not be important anyway.

[melmerby]

Worcester services will almost certainly be focussed more on the Snow Hill line albeit with limited "express" services up the Lickey as now. 

Currently there are 3 trains an hour to Worcester, two via Snow Hill and one from New St. to Hereford. There are extra services during the peaks.

Once the Cross City extension is up and running the talk is of a regular 4 trains an hour from Bromsgrove to Birmingham, as 3 of these will be by Electric Cross City services it suggests that there will still be one hourly Worcester train to/from New St.

 

Keith

[Robert Shrives]

I've wondered if the surplus 170 from Anglia could add to the snow hill fleet?

Personally I was hoping XC might get a sniff if the price (zero) was right for the Cambridge and Worcester enhancements, and standby for the 230 at Leamington ! just a thought D(a)fT readers on here as policy makers clearly comment freely !!!

Robert 

[corneliuslundie]

A serious question: does the new franchise specify DOO?

Jonathan

[phil-b259]

A serious question: does the new franchise specify DOO?

Jonathan

 

Given the 'success' of the DfT in pushing that through on Southern, I doubt its specifically mandated in the franchise for fear of driving away potental bidders. On the other hand I'm sure that nice Mr Wilkinson and his colleagues will be doing their best behind the scenes to find a way of introducing somehow - or at the very least ensuring all rolling stock is DOO ready.

Edited August 12, 2017 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

See, with creative thinking anything is possible!

 

I've already proposed to DafT that they develop active track, the track would automatically detect the approach of wide trains and move outwards to increase the loading gauge to make more room, it will then move back to its normal alignment after the train has passed. Clearly this would not be cheap (using DafT's standard financial modelling tool to estimate major program costs we'd be looking at at least £700 to modify the WCML between Euston and Glasgow with this ground breaking technology) so we will reduce costs elsewhere by de-electrifying and powering the new Series 500 Shinkansens with nuclear fusion reactors and making them driverless. Again, not an easy task and DafT estimate that developing a nuclear fusion powered driverless train would take until at least April 2018 and delivery of a fleet of 9000 carriages would cost circa. £250 with every train builder in the world bidding for this prestigious contract. I had some doubts that it could be done for this price, but I'm assured that a consultant retained by DafT on a competitive value for money rate of £19,748.93 per hour plus VAT has done all the work and thatthere is zero commercial or technical risks. Unlike the IEP program which was a bold step into the unknown to develop ground breaking technology beyond all known human scientific knowledge, converting the WCML to active track and nuclear fusion powered trains would be very straightforward. Thank God for DafT is what I say.

 

I'm ashamed of you JJB - not even a whisper of a hint about VOs when all contractors know the route to assured profit lies in VOs,  and DafT seem to be the ultimate mugs for them if the Class 800 saga is any guide (or are Hitachi innocent of such things?)