DBS Job Losses

[Gary H]

Coal has been on the decline but that decline was rather hastened by Government policy earlier this year.

 

When you travel about there are sidings all over full of redundant hopper wagons of DB and Freightliner.

 

Getting more traffic onto the railways is going to require more than the freight companies effort - it requires political will as well and it isn't going to happen overnight unlike the loss of the coal fired power stations which shut with immense haste.

 

How will rail ever compete with a lorry driven by an eastern European on 9 quid an hour, prepared to live in the cab all week and 600 litres of French diesel.

I'm afraid that as long as that's the status quo , nothing will change.

[Classsix T]

...who'll be the first to mention job opportunities abroad. Oh, hang on, no "we've" stuffed that up an'all...fume.

 

C6T.

[jjb1970]

The loss of coal traffic is an inevitable consequence of the shift to cleaner electricity generation which is unlikely to be reversed (nor should it be IMO). Steel might be assisted by the devaluation of the pound but it will need a lot of infrastructure investment to increase steel demand enough to really help that industry, and that is assuming the additional steel was British. Unfortunately it is not a good time for railfreight, I just hope that people at risk of losing their jobs can either be retained or find new employment quickly.

[PhilH]

The loss of coal traffic is an inevitable consequence of the shift to cleaner electricity generation which is unlikely to be reversed (nor should it be IMO). Steel might be assisted by the devaluation of the pound but it will need a lot of infrastructure investment to increase steel demand enough to really help that industry, and that is assuming the additional steel was British. Unfortunately it is not a good time for railfreight, I just hope that people at risk of losing their jobs can either be retained or find new employment quickly.

 

 

Perhaps they can be employed in Germany on the coal trains required for their new build coal fired power stations....

[jjb1970]

Perhaps they can be employed in Germany on the coal trains required for their new build coal fired power stations....

 

The German situation is driven by their kneejerk reaction to decommission nuclear power and a reluctance to be dependent upon imported gas (not coincidentally, there are important elections in 2017 too). However even in German coal is a bridge to a low carbon energy sector and then a stand by fuel, meaning that their coal sector will also face a massive contraction looking forward 15-20 years. So I really wouldn't see the future of coal in Germany as being especially rosy.

[Mike Storey]

How will rail ever compete with a lorry driven by an eastern European on 9 quid an hour, prepared to live in the cab all week and 600 litres of French diesel.

I'm afraid that as long as that's the status quo , nothing will change.

 I regret you have been listening to too much, highly suspect propaganda. French diesel is now priced at a rate not dissimilar to UK diesel prices (it has just risen from 1.04 euros to around 1.15 euros in about two weeks, and much higher on the autoroute service stations). There are also c.4,000 HGV vacancies in the UK (source RHA) as so few British nationals are willing to work the hours necessary (and which have always been necessary since the 1980's) and migrants and foreign companies are not picking up the shortfall sufficiently. This is a major factor that explains the increasing growth in container and multi-modal growth on UK railways, but many of the trials do not result in consistent long term contracts, as customers still expect rail to deliver on 6 month, renewable contracts, which is what they are used to from road haulage. DBC gave up some time ago trying to compete in that market using loss leaders, but others have been more persistent.

 

I would strongly suggest that this is more both a recognition of the transport industry-wide reduction in heavy haul, and a result of the new (yet again revised) DB parent company strategy, in preparation for selling off several of its subsidiaries. Given the general level of staff shortages in the fields of drivers, train planners and other essential employees throughout the rail companies, I would be surprised if many of the people made redundant (if indeed that becomes the outcome, as this is still only a proposal subject to TU consultation) would be unemployed for long. Freight company staff are admired for their flexibility and productivity these days.

 

I did not like the instability brought by privatisation, being made technically redundant twice during the process, but never in reality out of work. However, despite my political misgivings, I then found my skills and services were suddenly worth a lot more to the new masters, than they had been to BR (despite the fact that much the same people were still running things). By the law of unintended consequences, many key operations staff, especially drivers, also found they were going to earn an awful lot more than they ever dreamed under this brave new world. But good times have to balance with bad times. Let's not pretend that BR never made anyone redundant - a reduction from c.240,000 staff (when I joined in 1975) to around 90,000 - 110,00 at privatisation (depending on whom you include) did not occur just by natural wastage.

 

I guess what none of us liked, once we tucked our new, bigger salaries/annual hours contracts/re-titled grades under our reluctant belts, was the emerging realisation that we were now being run by owners (with a few very honourable exceptions) that did not have a clue what they were doing, but to resist was futile. Under BR, however deluded, we at least thought that "management" both listened to "us" and knew what they were doing. Freight companies have been, in general, one of the sectors where they did know what they were doing, and they had no franchise rescue or break clauses to help them. If DB are incompetent, it would appear to be a recent phenomenon. They are now one of the largest and most successful logistics companies throughout Europe. Here in France they have driven DHL into peripheral work. But their rapid growth has brought the usual problems, and this is one of them.

[PhilH]

The German situation is driven by their kneejerk reaction to decommission nuclear power and a reluctance to be dependent upon imported gas (not coincidentally, there are important elections in 2017 too). However even in German coal is a bridge to a low carbon energy sector and then a stand by fuel, meaning that their coal sector will also face a massive contraction looking forward 15-20 years. So I really wouldn't see the future of coal in Germany as being especially rosy.

15-20 years? That's a long time for most people, especially if they can stay employed for that length of time.

[beast66606]

 so few British nationals are willing to work the hours necessary (and which have always been necessary since the 1980's)

 

Cost in obtianing the licence is a major factor

[jjb1970]

15-20 years? That's a long time for most people, especially if they can stay employed for that length of time.

 

That may well be true, but it will probably be a period of expected decreasing demand (i.e. pain) followed by a transition to renewable energy with coal kept as a reserve in the way we seem to be using gas as a backup fuel. That may be OK for older workers, it isn't going to be great for anybody below about 40. Especially when it is quite possible that period will see an acceleration of the shift to alternative energy made possible by greater resilience of renewable sources, decentralised power and domestic energy storage.

[Mike Storey]

The loss of coal traffic is an inevitable consequence of the shift to cleaner electricity generation which is unlikely to be reversed (nor should it be IMO). Steel might be assisted by the devaluation of the pound but it will need a lot of infrastructure investment to increase steel demand enough to really help that industry, and that is assuming the additional steel was British. Unfortunately it is not a good time for railfreight, I just hope that people at risk of losing their jobs can either be retained or find new employment quickly.

 

Not so sure about that. Scunthorpe now makes the FB LWR for most work in France, Belgium and I believe, renewals work in Spain, following re-organisations and closures in France. Minor players in the Midlands are producing all the main steelwork for the GWEP and ECML OLE upgrades, on competitive tendering. Car body steel for presswork for Peugeot Citroen has now been won by a British-based foundry (ownership I do not know). They key issue for the steel industry would now appear to be whether a total switch to scrap based material (which was all the vogue, starting with Sheerness Steel, and which was the basis for the proposed buyout of South Wales Tata plants), which would demand higher levels of imports, or the retention of steel forging from iron ore etc, using primarily UK sources, dominates. The delay by Tata in a decision as to whether to sell its main plants at all, is encouraging. 

 

A spin-off from Brexit could be the retention of some traditional industries such as this, no longer constrained by any idea of a level playing field, and highly reliant on a low pound. That would bode well for traditional rail traffic. Whether you then condone the accompanying effects, which are many and varied (for example, ignoring the requirement to keep wages low, it would require an exponential barrier tarriff to Chinese dumping, which sort of precludes the massive increase in Chinese trade we were deluded into believing would occur by a new magical trade agreement) remains a mute point. Doubtless, the usual suspect will denounce me. Rail could benefit from this, but is this a long term strategy, dependent on a low wage, low pound economy? I am almost certainly crossing the boundary of political content here, but my main point is to urge consideration of the wider issues before walking blindly into the loud hurrah for things that accidently, and probably somewhat briefly, help the rail industry.

[Mike Storey]

Cost in obtianing the licence is a major factor

 

Yes,  I have heard that one many times. And yet many of the major hauliers, and even the RHA indirectly, have been offering sponsored assistance for the cost of that, on top of which there has been state assistance (not sure if this is still on offer, but it was 5 years ago), but take up has been less than enthusiastic. In particular, the British Army was a major source of free training for HGV and even PSV licences, but they are also having recruitment problems. British people, as a proportion compared to perhaps 30 years ago, have lost their appetite for such anti-social work (or getting shot at), as indeed have railway driver lodging turns largely disappeared, even on Eurostar I believe, which were mandatory on start up. I don't know the answer, but it appears to me that such sacrifices may have to become the new (or re-visited) situation in which the UK finds itself, or will within a couple of years or so. 

[RANGERS]

Whilst it does cost, what training doesnt cost? when measured against the cost of a University degree, its insignificant. Fair to say a degree might increase your chances of a well paid job, there's no guarantees and with an oversupply in graduates, the odds are lengthening.

 

More crucially, trucking isn't a job with a long term future, the age of driverless vehicles is here and area where there are labour issues are ripe for investment in the technology.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I wonder if any of the DBC drivers saw this one before the closing date. VTEC want people to train as drivers at Donny.

May still be a chance of late applications for people already in the job I would have thought.

 

http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/news/jobs-rail-firm-looking-to-recruit-south-yorkshire-people-for-57-000-a-year-train-driver-roles-1-8172650

[Fat Controller]

Not so sure about that. Scunthorpe now makes the FB LWR for most work in France, Belgium and I believe, renewals work in Spain, following re-organisations and closures in France. Minor players in the Midlands are producing all the main steelwork for the GWEP and ECML OLE upgrades, on competitive tendering. Car body steel for presswork for Peugeot Citroen has now been won by a British-based foundry (ownership I do not know). They key issue for the steel industry would now appear to be whether a total switch to scrap based material (which was all the vogue, starting with Sheerness Steel, and which was the basis for the proposed buyout of South Wales Tata plants), which would demand higher levels of imports, or the retention of steel forging from iron ore etc, using primarily UK sources, dominates. The delay by Tata in a decision as to whether to sell its main plants at all, is encouraging. 

 

A spin-off from Brexit could be the retention of some traditional industries such as this, no longer constrained by any idea of a level playing field, and highly reliant on a low pound. That would bode well for traditional rail traffic. Whether you then condone the accompanying effects, which are many and varied (for example, ignoring the requirement to keep wages low, it would require an exponential barrier tarriff to Chinese dumping, which sort of precludes the massive increase in Chinese trade we were deluded into believing would occur by a new magical trade agreement) remains a mute point. Doubtless, the usual suspect will denounce me. Rail could benefit from this, but is this a long term strategy, dependent on a low wage, low pound economy? I am almost certainly crossing the boundary of political content here, but my main point is to urge consideration of the wider issues before walking blindly into the loud hurrah for things that accidently, and probably somewhat briefly, help the rail industry.

The rail for the various European companies is currently rolled in France, at Ebange, using slab from the former Tata 'Long Products' plant at Scunthorpe. There is a daily train via the Channel Tunnel; the empty working also sometimes brings in long-welded rail to the UK.

The firms in the Midlands that are supplying steelwork for the various electrification projects are steel fabricators. They don't make steel, but rather use steel rolled elsewhere to make the masts and other structures.

The steel for Peugeot-Citroen will be coming from one of Tata's Welsh plants, which are now the only manufacturers of coiled sheet plate; if it's Cold Reduced Coil, it'll come from Port Talbot/ Llanwern, if galvanised or otherwise coated, it'll be from Shotton. 

Sheerness Steel (now Thamesteel) is reopening; until now, like the plant in Cardiff, it has only produced billet, reinforcing bar and wire coil, and in relatively small quantities in comparison to Port Talbot or Scunthorpe. Tata have some specialised plants in Sheffield that use electric  furnaces (arc and induction), but again, only in relatively small quantities. 

'Foundry' and 'forging' are terms with specific meanings.

A foundry casts steel into finished or semi-finished products, generally using scrap, sometimes with a proportion of new pig-iron. It doesn't, and couldn't, produce thin plate for car manufacture, for example, though it might produce engine-block castings.

'Forging' involves hitting a piece of hot steel (or wrought iron, in earlier times) with a very heavy 'hammer' to alter its shape- such a process is used to make things like crankshafts for cars.

I don't believe any domestically-produced ore is used for steel manufacture in the UK, and hasn't been for about forty years. Most British ores are fairly low in iron content (Arthur will know the percentage), and have been replaced by much higher-grade ore brought in from as far away as Australia and Brazil. The current low value of the Pound means that imported ores have become more expensive, whilst domestically-produced scrap is more attractive to foreign producers.

[PhilH]

'The current low value of the Pound means that imported ores have become more expensive, whilst domestically-produced scrap is more attractive to foreign producers.'

 

Might pay NR to start thinking about cleaning up the vast amounts of 'stuff' lying about everywhere...

 

Unfortunately might also fuel a hike in scrap thefts. Maybe they could combine the two....

[russ p]

Time to reopen not only our coalfields but the Cleveland and Midlands iron ore mines!

[Mike Storey]

The rail for the various European companies is currently rolled in France, at Ebange, using slab from the former Tata 'Long Products' plant at Scunthorpe. There is a daily train via the Channel Tunnel; the empty working also sometimes brings in long-welded rail to the UK.

The firms in the Midlands that are supplying steelwork for the various electrification projects are steel fabricators. They don't make steel, but rather use steel rolled elsewhere to make the masts and other structures.

The steel for Peugeot-Citroen will be coming from one of Tata's Welsh plants, which are now the only manufacturers of coiled sheet plate; if it's Cold Reduced Coil, it'll come from Port Talbot/ Llanwern, if galvanised or otherwise coated, it'll be from Shotton. 

Sheerness Steel (now Thamesteel) is reopening; until now, like the plant in Cardiff, it has only produced billet, reinforcing bar and wire coil, and in relatively small quantities in comparison to Port Talbot or Scunthorpe. Tata have some specialised plants in Sheffield that use electric  furnaces (arc and induction), but again, only in relatively small quantities. 

'Foundry' and 'forging' are terms with specific meanings.

A foundry casts steel into finished or semi-finished products, generally using scrap, sometimes with a proportion of new pig-iron. It doesn't, and couldn't, produce thin plate for car manufacture, for example, though it might produce engine-block castings.

'Forging' involves hitting a piece of hot steel (or wrought iron, in earlier times) with a very heavy 'hammer' to alter its shape- such a process is used to make things like crankshafts for cars.

I don't believe any domestically-produced ore is used for steel manufacture in the UK, and hasn't been for about forty years. Most British ores are fairly low in iron content (Arthur will know the percentage), and have been replaced by much higher-grade ore brought in from as far away as Australia and Brazil. The current low value of the Pound means that imported ores have become more expensive, whilst domestically-produced scrap is more attractive to foreign producers.

 

Thanks for that Brian - I had not realised that with iron ore, but I believed the coking coal was domestic? On scrap usage, things must have changed then. Much of the scrap for the original Sheerness Steel works (when I was a traffic manager for the Medway and Sttingbourne area) came in by sea through Ridham dock and was tripped to Sheerness daily. A large quantity was domestic and would arrive once or twice per day in four of five of their POAs on trips from Hoo Jn. I was told by the Ops Manager at SS that roughly two thirds of the scrap they used was foreign. It is good to learn that domestic scrap metal is now at the level which can supply such work. Only a few weeks ago, I saw ships being loaded with large volumes of scrap at Newhaven. Whether this was for British use, or use elsewhere I don't know, but both ships were foreign registered, although that means nothing these days. 

[jjb1970]

Rail freight is just another industry which is subject to societal changes and evolution. Sometimes change benefits an industry, sometimes it is negative and sometimes it can kill an industry. Apologies if that sounds glib and I appreciate it is no comfort to those worried about their jobs, but we can't try and pretend that DBS can in some way stand apart from the historic shift to low carbon energy and changes in the industrial landscape. That does not mean there is no future for rail freight and as with most corporate reactions to change there is a question of the relative contributory factors arising from those bigger changes and of DBS management.

On employment, the only certainty is uncertainty. This may be stating the obvious but nobody can offer anybody a job for life and any companies hinting that they are are being less than honest. We have no idea what the world will look like in ten years, we are on the cusp of a huge technological change as autonomous systems become viable for a wide range of applications. And as people, how many want a job for life? People want to be employed for their working life but I'm not sure many want to have a job for life in the old fashioned sense. Flexibility is a two way thing and people willing to invest in their own learning and development can use a flexible labour market to their advantage.

At the moment the major short term uncertainty is Brexit. Whether you are a remainer or a Brexiteer, at the moment we do not have the first idea what Brexit will look like and whichever side of the fence you sit on it cannot be disputed that the success of Brexit will be determined about the shape of our exit from the EU. There are a range of possible scenarios and depending upon how it goes we could see a renaissance of British industry or a national catastrophe. Until that is resolved I think we will see delays in investment and foreign investors especially will likely look elsewhere for lower risk until we have clarity on where we are going. And that is not a helpful environment for the customers of DBS, and if those customers are worried then it is not good for DBS or their competitors either.

[Glorious NSE]

A foundry casts steel into finished or semi-finished products, generally using scrap, sometimes with a proportion of new pig-iron. It doesn't, and couldn't, produce thin plate for car manufacture, for example, though it might produce engine-block castings.

 

Apropos not a lot - I believe there are Electric furnace based mills elsewhere in the world these days which do produce thin coiled plate, so I think the tech exists, even if that's not what any British plants do in practice.

[russ p]

There is a plan at an advanced stage to reopen Haig pit at Whitehaven as a drift mine to mine quality coking coal, surprisingly a lot of this is for export

[Reorte]

There is a plan at an advanced stage to reopen Haig pit at Whitehaven as a drift mine to mine quality coking coal, surprisingly a lot of this is for export

First I've heard of that, interesting. Is movement by rail on the cards for it?

[Dunsignalling]

15-20 years? That's a long time for most people, especially if they can stay employed for that length of time.

Agreed, that's equivalent to at least five consecutive jobs in this country nowadays.

[royaloak]

Talkin'bout job opportunities, surely some (soon-to-be-former) DBS/C workers could find their way to, say, Southern? And the Tube? There's a part of that to-be-made-redundant group not suitable for the jobs, but they wouldn't be drivers for DBS anyway

Possibly some drivers, but well over half of the redundancies are non driving grades, what are they going to do?

[russ p]

First I've heard of that, interesting. Is movement by rail on the cards for it?

It certainly is, part of the planning

[scouser]

...who'll be the first to mention job opportunities abroad. Oh, hang on, no "we've" stuffed that up an'all...fume.

C6T.

NO! We haven't. People have been moving around Europe for work for a very long time. It just used to be dependent on skills not cheapness of labour.

Don't believe everything the papers tell you. Oh yeh, and stop whinging!

Check a map and you will find a lot of places to work that aren't in Europe . Been there done it.

Democracy is not about minorities, but I can understand anybody who has grown up since the seventies having aproblem understanding that concept.