DBS Job Losses

[Classsix T]

NO! We haven't. People have been moving around Europe for work for a very long time. It just used to be dependent on skills not cheapness of labour.

Don't believe everything the papers tell you. Oh yeh, and stop whinging!

Check a map and you will find a lot of places to work that aren't in Europe . Been there done it.

Democracy is not about minorities, but I can understand anybody who has grown up since the seventies having aproblem understanding that concept.

[scouser]

calmdown.png

Eh la, giveus me air back!!!

[Mike Storey]

NO! We haven't. People have been moving around Europe for work for a very long time. It just used to be dependent on skills not cheapness of labour.

Don't believe everything the papers tell you. Oh yeh, and stop whinging!

Check a map and you will find a lot of places to work that aren't in Europe . Been there done it.

Democracy is not about minorities, but I can understand anybody who has grown up since the seventies having aproblem understanding that concept.

 

Only a very select few moved around Europe prior to the UK joining the EEC/EU - I was one of them, but also worked in New York, where the trials of gaining a green card after already being there for six months (on a blue card I think) got overtaken by events and I lost the long term position. You exaggerate the opportunity whilst completely ignoring the previous reality, as much as any person called Davis, Johnson or Fox. The majority of mass circulation newspapers are saying the same as you. Jobs around the world for "skilled" railway folk, and others, are drying up now, mainly due to the slowdown in Chinese and US investment in overseas acquisitions for anything other than mineral rights. The odd billionaire meglomaniac in the Middle East, Eurasia or parts of Africa do not sustain a global job market.

 

Your remark about "democracy" is well out of kilter with history and reality. Much of the benefits we nationally take for granted now grew with the movements of unpopular "minorities" in the 1920's and 1930's. It took a world war to bring their visions to reality, primarily the welfare state, including the rescue of a fast failing railway network, although to be fair, it was the numpties of the 1950's who made a complete cobblers of that, and the ones who grew up "in the 1970's" who recovered the position with business sectorisation of the 1980's (when nearly 100,000 railway jobs were disposed of). So much for your "reality" and "common sense". on which I presume you claim unique perspective.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that Brian - I had not realised that with iron ore, but I believed the coking coal was domestic? On scrap usage, things must have changed then. Much of the scrap for the original Sheerness Steel works (when I was a traffic manager for the Medway and Sttingbourne area) came in by sea through Ridham dock and was tripped to Sheerness daily. A large quantity was domestic and would arrive once or twice per day in four of five of their POAs on trips from Hoo Jn. I was told by the Ops Manager at SS that roughly two thirds of the scrap they used was foreign. It is good to learn that domestic scrap metal is now at the level which can supply such work. Only a few weeks ago, I saw ships being loaded with large volumes of scrap at Newhaven. Whether this was for British use, or use elsewhere I don't know, but both ships were foreign registered, although that means nothing these days. 

 

Export scrap metal passes through a number of ports - Port of Tyne regularly ships to Japan and has two very large areas where scrap is stockpiled until there is enough for a shipload.  Swansea also stockpiles scrap but on a far smaller scale than Port of Tyne so it is probably shipped to somewhere in Europe rather than longer distance.

 

Coking coal is definitely imported but there might still be some opencast mined UK coal used for blending but in any case a lot of the past South Wales deep mined coal had to be blended with lower calorific value coals (in some cases recovered from tips)for use in blast furnaces.

Apropos not a lot - I believe there are Electric furnace based mills elsewhere in the world these days which do produce thin coiled plate, so I think the tech exists, even if that's not what any British plants do in practice.

 

I think Brian was talking specifically about a foundry rather than a steelworks.  As a large percentage of German made steel comes from electric arc furnaces using scrap metal I would be very surprised if some of the resultant steel isn't rolled as coiled plate.  Foundries produce castings, not plate - however the material cast might have been derived.

[Fat Controller]

Export scrap metal passes through a number of ports - Port of Tyne regularly ships to Japan and has two very large areas where scrap is stockpiled until there is enough for a shipload.  Swansea also stockpiles scrap but on a far smaller scale than Port of Tyne so it is probably shipped to somewhere in Europe rather than longer distance.

 

Coking coal is definitely imported but there might still be some opencast mined UK coal used for blending but in any case a lot of the past South Wales deep mined coal had to be blended with lower calorific value coals (in some cases recovered from tips)for use in blast furnaces.

 

I think Brian was talking specifically about a foundry rather than a steelworks.  As a large percentage of German made steel comes from electric arc furnaces using scrap metal I would be very surprised if some of the resultant steel isn't rolled as coiled plate.  Foundries produce castings, not plate - however the material cast might have been derived.

Export scrap is handled, amongst other sites, at Liverpool (EMR), Cardiff and Newport (Sims); less obviously, a lot goes to China in containers that would otherwise return empty. These latter have been known to cause various problems; sometimes, the load is unevenly distributed (several derailments have been associated with this), and on one occasion various contaminants reacted together and caused a box to go out-of-gauge.

Coking coal is largely imported, though Cwmbargoed sends some to Port Talbot.

Steel from electric arc furnaces can be used for anything that steel from other furnaces can be used for- the Americans use electric arc furnaces for a large proportion of their production- but in the UK, the larger-output plants, mainly Celsa and Thamesteel, have concentrated on stuff like rod and bar. The production of each of these plants has been in the region of 1 million tonnes each per year, in comparison with Port Talbot (around 5 million). 

[jamie92208]

It certainly is, part of the planning

I did see something about a year ago about a plan to open to new deep mine somewhere north of Carlisle to get at some coal of a particular quality. Perhaps that plan will come back to life.

 

Jamie

[D1059]

 Oh yeh, and stop whinging!

 

Why ???? Brexiteers moaned for over 40 years after losing the 1975 referendum

 

Having a vocal opposition IS democracy

 

Sorry for verging off topic, getting fed up with these stop whinging comments

[The Stationmaster]

Keep in mind that Tata still has a very efficient (and thus profitable) steelworks in Holland, Beverwijk (west of Amsterdam) There has been quite a bit of uproar there not so long ago over staff cuts in Beverwijk to allow the "less efficient"   (and loss-making) plants in the UK (particularly Wales) to continue. The people there felt betrayed for being profitable and forced to pay (in more ways then one) for the Welsh losses. I understand that's no longer the case as Tata closed them and/or plans to sell these plants off to 3rd parties. IMO a significant part of the considerable losses sustained by UK plants is the fact that Dutch Unions have (had) a more pragmatic approach to changed work practices, including staff redundancies over the English and Welsh. Plus a more hands-on Gov't, combined with a supportive supply chain (energy!) who understand that a continued existence of the plant is more important then exceedingly high profit margins for just the next fortnight, after which it closes for good and much money is lost and more from the taxpayer to be spend (benefits payout rises, etc)

 

The productivity improvements in the British plants has been almost on the incredible scale and has been going on for many years - for example when I first saw the hot rolled line at Llanwern in 1971 there were over 20 men per shift working on it, by early 1974 when i was working at Llanwern the same line was controlled by two men and the same was happening at the other South Wales works with considerable investment and shedding of staff.  The main difference at Port Talbot, where nearly16,000 jobs have gone in the past 40 years is that it still has a hot end using ore and coal in traditional blast furnaces which is more expensive than electric arc furnaces plus its energy costs are massively greater than mainland European plants due to UK energy policy.

 

Very strangely the loss of, allegedly, £1 million per whatever at port talbot suddenly turned into a profit of £5 million per month suggesting something had changed in the accounting as labour reductions at portTalbot were unlikely to have that effect.  The problem is also that Tata have lumped is British and Dutch figures together thus making it difficult to get at the true numbers for any particular works.

[Fat Controller]

The productivity improvements in the British plants has been almost on the incredible scale and has been going on for many years - for example when I first saw the hot rolled line at Llanwern in 1971 there were over 20 men per shift working on it, by early 1974 when i was working at Llanwern the same line was controlled by two men and the same was happening at the other South Wales works with considerable investment and shedding of staff.  The main difference at Port Talbot, where nearly16,000 jobs have gone in the past 40 years is that it still has a hot end using ore and coal in traditional blast furnaces which is more expensive than electric arc furnaces plus its energy costs are massively greater than mainland European plants due to UK energy policy.

 

Very strangely the loss of, allegedly, £1 million per whatever at port talbot suddenly turned into a profit of £5 million per month suggesting something had changed in the accounting as labour reductions at portTalbot were unlikely to have that effect.  The problem is also that Tata have lumped is British and Dutch figures together thus making it difficult to get at the true numbers for any particular works.

As far as I'm aware, you cannot convert iron ore to iron in an electric arc furnace; you need to heat the ore with carbon (charcoal, anthracite or coke) in order to reduce the ore and produce iron. The heat of this reaction, in conjuction with a flux (normally limestone, sometimes dolomite) also removes the other impurities, producing slag in the process. The iron from this process is then treated to produce steel. 

The change from loss to profit at Port Talbot is possibly due to how the pension liabilities have been accounted for.

[lmsforever]

Wonder how many drivers are applying to East Coast for their driving jobs ?Hope these people are looked after by DBS in terms of redundancy and job seeking support so important nowadays with the job market changing daily.

[clarkea1]

Sheerness Steel (now Thamesteel) is reopening; until now, like the plant in Cardiff, it has only produced billet, reinforcing bar and wire coil, and in relatively small quantities in comparison to Port Talbot or Scunthorpe. Tata have some specialised plants in Sheffield that use electric  furnaces (arc and induction), but again, only in relatively small quantities. 

 

 

 

I'm not sure it is re-opening.  Most of their plant was auctioned off a while back, and this link:

 

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2016/04/22/bids-called-for-37m-sheerness-rebar-mill-clear-up/

 

Suggests that the plant is being demolished?

 

Cheers

 

Alastair

 

EDIT - Ignore me - just found this link!  Excellent news (although given how much has gone they will have a big job on their hands!

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/sheerness/news/steelworks-to-reopen-with-dozens-104100/

[The Stationmaster]

Wonder how many drivers are applying to East Coast for their driving jobs ?Hope these people are looked after by DBS in terms of redundancy and job seeking support so important nowadays with the job market changing daily.

 

According to an item in the DT today there have been 15,000 applications for the VTEC Drivers jobs  

 

Quite honestly if I was looking for drivers for high speed passenger work I would 'do an SNCF' and start with people with existing driving experience - they would be cheaper to train because of their existing knowledge and you would be taking on a known quantity in terms of train handling etc with some proper railway experience under their belt.  

[Classsix T]

Why ???? Brexiteers moaned for over 40 years after losing the 1975 referendum

 

Having a vocal opposition IS democracy

 

Sorry for verging off topic, getting fed up with these stop whinging comments

Leave it mate. Apparently he can read me like a book.

 

In the dark.

 

With a blindfold.

 

200 miles away from the book.

 

C6T.

[roundhouse]

According to an item in the DT today there have been 15,000 applications for the VTEC Drivers jobs  

 

Quite honestly if I was looking for drivers for high speed passenger work I would 'do an SNCF' and start with people with existing driving experience - they would be cheaper to train because of their existing knowledge and you would be taking on a known quantity in terms of train handling etc with some proper railway experience under their belt.  

I ownder how many Southern  / GTR drivers have applied

[Mike Storey]

I'm not sure it is re-opening.  Most of their plant was auctioned off a while back, and this link:

 

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2016/04/22/bids-called-for-37m-sheerness-rebar-mill-clear-up/

 

Suggests that the plant is being demolished?

 

Cheers

 

Alastair

 

EDIT - Ignore me - just found this link!  Excellent news (although given how much has gone they will have a big job on their hands!

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/sheerness/news/steelworks-to-reopen-with-dozens-104100/

 

Indeed it appears to be good news at first, but then the Director of Peel Ports, the site owner, states that no deal has been signed, and he is clearly more up for a mixed development site, which includes 34 acres devoted to storing imported cars. It will be very interesting to see where it all ends up - either way it could be good news for rail freight, as the current compounds require much road shuttling to the old MAT train loading ramp on the old Queenborough Pier line. If this was re-sited into the old Sheernes Steel / Thamessteel site, no road tripping would be necessary, making rail competitive again. Liberty predict only 60 "new" jobs from re-opening the steel plant, rising to 100 one day, compared to the 350 made redundant 4 years ago. I wonder which way the council will sway?

[Glorious NSE]

As far as I'm aware, you cannot convert iron ore to iron in an electric arc furnace; you need to heat the ore with carbon (charcoal, anthracite or coke) in order to reduce the ore and produce iron. The heat of this reaction, in conjuction with a flux (normally limestone, sometimes dolomite) also removes the other impurities, producing slag in the process. The iron from this process is then treated to produce steel. 

They can't convert raw ore, but EAF plants can use something called DRI, a heavily processed ore. Whether that's worthwhile for the UK is a different question!

[Supaned]

According to an item in the DT today there have been 15,000 applications for the VTEC Drivers jobs  

 

Quite honestly if I was looking for drivers for high speed passenger work I would 'do an SNCF' and start with people with existing driving experience - they would be cheaper to train because of their existing knowledge and you would be taking on a known quantity in terms of train handling etc with some proper railway experience under their belt.  

 

Logically, yes , but Virgin have recruited Ab Initio in the past (Millenium Drivers scheme for West Coast) ; Based on my experience, of a course of 10 new drivers , of which 50% had prior railway experience and 50% were new to the industry, 3 of the 5 new to the railway no longer work in the industry , 2 of which completed their training at vast cost and then left soon after. The headline wages will always attract attention , however , a lot don't see what you have to do to earn it , and when the reality sets in it's a different matter.

[Gary H]

Wonder how many drivers are applying to East Coast for their driving jobs ?Hope these people are looked after by DBS in terms of redundancy and job seeking support so important nowadays with the job market changing daily.

 

Unfortunately, I got the impression that VTEC are looking for raw, off the street recruits so as they can mold them to 'their way' with no existing baggage! I cant see them taking on any ex drivers.

15'000 APPLICANTS for 78 positions apparently.

[PhilH]

Logically, yes , but Virgin have recruited Ab Initio in the past (Millenium Drivers scheme for West Coast) ; Based on my experience, of a course of 10 new drivers , of which 50% had prior railway experience and 50% were new to the industry, 3 of the 5 new to the railway no longer work in the industry , 2 of which completed their training at vast cost and then left soon after. The headline wages will always attract attention , however , a lot don't see what you have to do to earn it , and when the reality sets in it's a different matter.

 

 

One of the guys from LSL was selected for driver training with DBS,as it was then, not many years ago. He had to take out a six figure sum loan with them for this training which, if he left before a specified (I think 5 years but I could be wrong) time after completion of his training, then he would have to repay.

[Gary H]

One of the guys from LSL was selected for driver training with DBS,as it was then, not many years ago. he had to take out a six figure sum loan with them for this training which, if he left before a specified (I think 5 years but I could be wrong) time after completion of his training then he would have to repay.

 

Ive heard similar to that a few times. You are certainly 'tied-in' now as the TOC's and FOC's got abit fed up with investing considerable sums only for the driver to sod off after training.

[beast66606]

Ive heard similar to that a few times. You are certainly 'tied-in' now as the TOC's and FOC's got abit fed up with investing considerable sums only for the driver to sod off after training.

 

Golden handcuffs - getting more common practice, I've heard of it in IT too, and it's one I can understand (for a change) - why should xyz company fund someones training only for them to move on before any benefits are reaped.

 

But we digress a bit.

[jjb1970]

Usually it's not a "loan", the company will quantify the cost of training and have a sliding liability (eg. 100% of costs if you leave within the first year then dropping until the liability ends) of costs which you agree to pay back if you leave. By accepting the role and training you accept the associated liability to repay training costs. Five years is a long time, I've found two years to be more typical. There is nothing sinister about this and in a sense it is a lot less onerous than funding a course of higher education in which you do actually have to pay for the costs of your learning (even if tuition fee loans spread the payment over a long time and keep monthly repayments down).

[Fat Controller]

They can't convert raw ore, but EAF plants can use something called DRI, a heavily processed ore. Whether that's worthwhile for the UK is a different question!

Direct-reduced iron is a technique that's been used for a very long time; it would have been how the iron of the Iron Age was produced. Its production is very profligate in energy use, relying on large quantities of readily-available fuel (these days either natural gas or coal, though it would have originally been charcoal) . One problem is that the material produced has to be further processed very quickly, as it is prone to absorb large quantities of moisture and become, effectively, rust. It also relies on very high iron-content in the original ore- somewhere in the 75%-85% bracket, so it wouldn't be much use with indigenous British ore, most of which was less than half that.

[Georgeconna]

Seems a shame when, as DBS says in its statement, the roads are choked with lorries.

 

There's probably more than a few DB lorries in that traffic as well. 

[Fat Controller]

There's probably more than a few DB lorries in that traffic as well. 

DB, like SNCF, probably haul more general merchandise via their road-haulage subsidiaries than they do by rail.