Possible New Use for Class 442s - Alliance Rail

[4630]

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Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[phil-b259]

This is an interesting new development - I did check to make sure that it's not the 1st April;

 

Copied and pasted via Twitter;

 

8 November 2016

Competition proposed on Southampton – London rail services from December 2017

Alliance Rail Holdings (Alliance) has started consultation within the rail industry on starting a new ‘open access’ rail service between Southampton and London Waterloo to begin in December 2017. There will be 7 off-peak services a day, calling at Eastleigh, Winchester, Basingstoke and Hook, with 2 peak services introduced a year later in December 2018. Following consultation the application will then be determined by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

Alliance will initially use Class 442 trains, with peak trains offering 600 seats on each service, with both Standard and First class accommodation provided. It is recognised that there are severe overcrowding problems on this route in the peak, and the provision of these extra services will help address the problem.

In its recent decision (May 2016) to approve new competitive services on the East Coast Main Line (ECML) the ORR has recognised the benefits that further competition will bring, and Alliance believes the introduction of competition for the first time on this important route will enhance rails attractiveness, and offer passengers many of the benefits enjoyed for some time by users of the ECML.

If you would like more information about this subject or to schedule an interview, please call: 01904 628904 or email info@alliancerail.co.uk or ny@alliancerail.co.uk

Note to editors: Open access train services operate outside the franchise system. They are not specified by the Department for Transport.

 

 

 

And the original post on Facebook earlier today.

 

https://www.facebook.com/AllianceRail/posts/1339803572717316

 

Interesting - mainly because my understanding that the SWML was full heading into and out of London at peak times and while Waterloo is due to end up with slightly more platforms once all the rebuilding is finished that won't help the approaches.

 

If it comes off though 442s are an obvious choice to test the market viability of the operation as to avoid the storage problem they are probably quite cheap to lease.

[4630]

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Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[royaloak]

That is never going to pass the revenue extraction test, more pie in the sky ideas.

[darrel]

Oh look there's a flying (plastic) pig

[John M Upton]

Never going to happen.

[Zomboid]

If there were spare peak time paths and platform capacity at Waterloo, SWT would have found a use for them. Off peak there might be some scope though, and the trains are pretty full all day on the SWML.

A 442 mixing it with 444s and 450s might need more than one path, they're not going to push anyone back into their seat under acceleration.

[olivegreen]

Forgive my ignorance, but could someone in the know explain in a couple of words what is meant by an 'open access service' - both in theory and practice, since I have the feeling from the comments above that the two are different?

[Zomboid]

An open access operator buys the paths from NR and runs a service on a wholly commercial basis. There's no contract or requirements from the government, and no support either. Freight operators are essentially open access.

Hull trains and Grand Central are the existing successful open access passenger operators, WSMR is one which failed. (One wonders what would happen if First decided to pull the plug on HT, actually - would that service be considered important and established enough to be put into the ICEC franchise?).

[roythebus]

Southampton to Kensington Olympia?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Southampton to Kensington Olympia?

 

Would'nt that mean going round the houses to get onto the Windsor Lines at Virginia Water? So pretty slow.

[The Stationmaster]

Southampton to Kensington Olympia?

 

That could be rather amusing couldn't it.  Just imagine how it would get over to that side at Clapham in the peaks   

[Zomboid]

That could be rather amusing couldn't it. Just imagine how it would get over to that side at Clapham in the peaks

there is no signalled route from the mains to the WLL (up main fast loop could go through the sidings, no route at all in the down direction), so it would have to go via Staines, which would only offer a competitive journey time when compared to walking.

Unless it turns off at Wimbledon and goes via the district line (hahaha) or via Streatham and the lines towards Victoria.

[The Stationmaster]

there is no signalled route from the mains to the WLL (up main fast loop could go through the sidings, no route at all in the down direction), so it would have to go via Staines, which would only offer a competitive journey time when compared to walking.

Unless it turns off at Wimbledon and goes via the district line (hahaha) or via Streatham and the lines towards Victoria.

 

Exactly my point - it is not exactly a simple task getting off the SWML to the WLL in the Up direction.

[Glorious NSE]

Into Victoria via Tooting?

[njee20]

That'd be interesting, would offer a genuinely different proposition too, rather than being akin to a more frequent SWT service.

[Zomboid]

I think that the Wimbledon loop thameslink services are not now going to terminate at Blackfriars, so perhaps the bay platforms there will have some capacity...

[jonhall]

This has been tried before of course, remember the anglia 170's that were intended to do Waterloo-Southampton in the early years of privitisation? They were refused and ended up working the Norwich-Basingstoke 'ECS' legs for a season or two before abandoning the idea.

 

For all its many faults, SWT have made a pretty fair fist of their franchise, and particularly with next summers blockade at Waterloo to do the 10 car suburban and then the subsequent phased works across the whole of the station, there just isn't room at Waterloo for more - I suspect that will be the case until Crossrail 2 takes most of the suburbans out in 2030/2040?

 

Its very difficult to see what you could use the 442's for, a small non-standard fleet really needs a 'captive' working where only a small pool of drivers/guards from one or two depots can retain route/traction knowledge, I doubt they have sufficient capacity for London-Portsmouth or London-Reading, which are the only two routes on SWT that I'd expect to need that size fleet and still retain the simplicity of limited route (and diversion) knowledge. If 24 extra Desiro's became available I'm sure SWT would snap them up in a flash!

 

Jon

[298]

Into Victoria via Tooting?

Or Ryanair London Waterloo (Kensington Olympia)...?

 

Edit- I've just seen Roythebus' post.

Edited November 10, 2016 by 298

[roythebus]

There's a post on the Facebook thing today quoting the Alliance Rail formal application to run the services under s17 of whatever Act it is. they intend to run 2 up services in the am peak from Southampton Central stopping at Eastleigh, Winchester, Basingstoke, Wimbledon (set down only) to Waterloo and 2 down service in the pm peak. During the off- peak they're proposing a 2 hourly service in each direction. they propose standards similar to their Grand Central services which they claim have 98% passenger satisfaction.

 

Edited to add Off-peak services to start late 2017, peak services 2018.

 

Sorry I can't find the FB link again or I'd have cut and pasted it! The miracles of the internet!

Edited November 16, 2016 by roythebus

[Derekstuart]

EDIT: Comment deleted.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Derekstuart

[royaloak]

There is no way they would be allowed to call Wimbledon during the morning peak unless they are routed slow line from Basingstoke, they wont be able to swap from fast to slow anywhere nearer London.

 

SWT cant call at Clapham jn (on the up fast line) because the timetable is so tight!

 

Why are they wasting time trying to get permission to run what are primary revenue extractive services, something they will never get permission for!

Edited November 16, 2016 by royaloak

[Zomboid]

Maybe they'll use slow line paths from Surbiton inwards or something? They aren't stopping anything on the fasts at Wimbledon, doubt that would be allowed off peak, never mind during the rush.

I don't see what that service offers that SWT doesn't. Maybe if it started in Romsey, which at least doesn't have a direct London train they'd have some kind of USP.

[Glorious NSE]

I don't see what that service offers that SWT doesn't. 

 

Well, a stop at Wimbledon apparently!

 

(No, i'm not sure why either - though I suppose you get a Tube and Tramlink connection!)

[roythebus]

Maybe the Wimbledon stop is outside peak hours? Until I can find the original FB link we won't know.