Croydon Tram Accident

[Simon Lee]

RAIB Press release

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon

[The Stationmaster]

To be honest i think as soon as anyone starts a post about an accident it should be locked or removed. It will put a stop to armchair investigation and sharing uninformed speculation and accusation so rmweb doesnt lower itself to the same poor standards of the uk media.

 

When all the facts are presented and relatives and injured have had time to grieve then talk about it if you really cant help yourselves. That or re-educate and join a body of professional accident investigation and help make a difference.

 

For the love of god just close this. It is the same as all the other accident topics and pointless.

 

Inglenookfan

 

I can see nothing wrong with discussing the emerging facts and, hopefully, doing so as accurately as possible.  But where we must exercise considerable caution and restraint is in advancing what sometimes come over as firm (and undoubtedly under-informed) conclusions regarding the causes of the incident and varies options of 'what if' or 'maybe' and so on.  What we know about this incident is that a Croydon tram derailed and ended up on its side, we now have hopefully clarified what route it was on and where it finished up because we have freely available pictures to guide us - but that is all.  

 

What we do not know, and won't until the results of various official investigations enter the public arena, is why it derailed and toppled and what did or didn't transpire in the time before the derailment took place.  We might hear contorted or even distorted (usually through ignorance) reports in the media about what did or didn't happen prior to the derailment.  But they are not necessarily reliable and should be treated with extreme caution and certainly not be regarded as 'evidence' from which those of us who are not in possession of the full facts can draw any sort of conclusions.

 

A number of us on this forum have a current or past professional interest in rail related safety and are interested in the emerging facts so I see no reason to lock as it might prevent information being shared.  But whatever we might think privately advancing our own theories is not something we should be doing and if that happens the thread would need to be locked.

 

In the meanwhile our condolences to the bereaved and our thoughts to the injured and their families are the best things we can offer.

[inglenookfan]

If it's locked it means that updates on known information cannot be posted.

 

What gets topics locked is bad speculation, irrelevancies or arguments.

Yup but how many posts are actually informed? All i see are links to info that may be speculation, irrelevant speculation and as i am now arguing i think it should be closed. Honestly; every topic about a crash leads to pages of cr@p. Force a stop and encourage members to discuss the FACTS when they are known.

 

Inglenookfan

[Dagworth]

What we know about this incident is that a Croydon tram derailed and ended up on its side, we now have hopefully clarified what route it was on and where it finished up because we have freely available pictures to guide us - but that is all.  

 

 

The RAIB initial report confirms that my post regarding origin of the service was correct

 

Andi

[martin_wynne]

Yup but how many posts are actually informed? All i see are links to info that may be speculation, irrelevant speculation and as i am now arguing i think it should be closed. Honestly; every topic about a crash leads to pages of cr@p. Force a stop and encourage members to discuss the FACTS when they are known.

 

Lord preserve us from self-appointed moderators. Who want to have their say, and then prevent anyone else from doing so.

 

Martin.

[tamperman36]

Initial report from RAIB may be to stop media and public speculation and thus concentrate on the true facts and evidence.   

[inglenookfan]

Lord preserve us from self-appointed moderators. Who want to have their say, and then prevent anyone else from doing so.

 

Martin.

Ooh dare anyone have a different view. Get real. I am just having my say. The moderators who make the decisions will decide.

 

I know someone who found out thier daughter had topped herself in a hospital 2 hours after the first farcebook post so in my mind it really isnt fair or humane to encourage uninformed internet chat about this kind of thing.

 

Inglenookfan

[Fat Controller]

Yup but how many posts are actually informed? All i see are links to info that may be speculation, irrelevant speculation and as i am now arguing i think it should be closed. Honestly; every topic about a crash leads to pages of cr@p. Force a stop and encourage members to discuss the FACTS when they are known.

 

Inglenookfan

Might I add that no-one is forcing you to look at this, or any other, thread. I agree there is often seemingly pointless repetition and speculation, but this, for better or worse, is normal for on-line fora. Just occasionally, you might happen upon a previously-unreported fact, or an original line of discussion, which makes following the thread worthwhile.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

That RAIB interim report says that 'first indications are' that the tram was travelling at a 'significantly higher speed' than the 12mph published limit for that particular curve.

 

We will not know how they arrived at that statement until the full report is published in the public domain.

 

I would imagine ( and one can't get more speculative than that ) that these trams are fitted with a 'black box' recorder.

[Andy Y]

The moderators who make the decisions will decide.

 

 

I've decided; decided to remove the user's access to this topic so it ceases to exist for him. Problem solved.

[Ian J.]

BBC R4 PM reporting seven dead now.

[SwissRailPassion]

Seven dead according to latest reports.

[phil-b259]

Ooh dare anyone have a different view. Get real. I am just having my say. The moderators who make the decisions will decide.

 

I know someone who found out thier daughter had topped herself in a hospital 2 hours after the first farcebook post so in my mind it really isnt fair or humane to encourage uninformed internet chat about this kind of thing.

 

 

Thats the downside of social medal - however in this particular case, it was all over the news channels pretty much the instant it happened. Without wishing to be crude, if the first you heard about it was from RMWeb thread then I thats hardly the fault of this site.

[Siberian Snooper]

Does a yone know if the trams have multiple onboard cctv cameras, like large number of public service vehicles do these days and also a driver monitoring system which records the rate of acceleration/deceleration and cornering, the buses that I drove at the end of my bus driving days gave a traffic light display in the cab and was also monitored by management and if your monthly score was excessive you got tea and biscuits and if it re-occured within a specified period of time you went back to driving school, it was also checked if you had an incedent.

[darrel]

Do trams not have anything like TPWS to stop a tram that is going to fast before a tight curve?

[leopardml2341]

Does a yone know if the trams have multiple onboard cctv cameras, like large number of public service vehicles do these days and also a driver monitoring system which records the rate of acceleration/deceleration and cornering, the buses that I drove at the end of my bus driving days gave a traffic light display in the cab and was also monitored by management and if your monthly score was excessive you got tea and biscuits and if it re-occured within a specified period of time you went back to driving school, it was also checked if you had an incedent.

Section 19 of this may answer:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/412062/060720_R112006_New_Addington.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj0-pH3tZzQAhUhOsAKHTIrAvYQFggzMAM&usg=AFQjCNGyWl-cRCYP8gCDsVF7DdD4cfGQEQ&sig2=zhWBcvR_Nm4b9P3Fv1f3tw

Edited November 9, 2016 by leopardml2341

[4630]

.

Edited November 11, 2016 by 4630

[Dagworth]

"19 Each tram is fitted with a data recorder that records speed and distance information, along with the state of certain controls. In addition two CCTV cameras record the forward and rearward facing views from the tram, whilst four other cameras record the interior. These data and CCTV records have enabled the sequence of events to be clearly established."

[leopardml2341]

"19 Each tram is fitted with a data recorder that records speed and distance information, along with the state of certain controls. In addition two CCTV cameras record the forward and rearward facing views from the tram, whilst four other cameras record the interior. These data and CCTV records have enabled the sequence of events to be clearly established."

Thanks, could only post the link from my mobile device, even though I could open doc and read text :-/

[phil-b259]

Do trams not have anything like TPWS to stop a tram that is going to fast before a tight curve?

 

In principle no  - they are basically driven on a line of sight basis and just as a bus or your car doesn't enforce you to slow own for a bend - its down to the driver to respond to the speed limit signs and act accordingly.

Where tram signals are provided then this is usually to give stop commands for traffic lights, to protect access to a single line or top tell drivers that facing points are correctly locked in a certain position.

 

The thing is under UK law a tram is no different from a bus and is treated accordingly - unless the right of way is securely fenced off from public access in the manor of a proper railway in which case the higher speeds attainable might prevent the "must be able to stop within the distance that can seen to be clear" rules from being applied.

[Pacific231G]

Unfortunately government changed that for some offences many years ago. You are considered guilty and have to prove your innocence for many vehicle offences - for example if it was not the car owner who was driving where a car is photographed speeding, driving in a bus lane, or not paying the London congestion charge.

 

G.

Aren't those civil offences that are judged on the balance of probabilities as opposed to criminal offences requiring to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt"?

I'm not a lawyer but someone reading this must know the law. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Colin_McLeod]

To be honest i think as soon as anyone starts a post about an accident it should be locked or removed.

Inglenookfan

Totally disagree. We are capable of an adult discussion. In the past on RMWEB there was inappropriate speculation on accident threads but now most posters known the rules. However the number of people asking that threads be locked is just irritating and implies that we are not to be trusted with discussion. Edited November 9, 2016 by Colin_McLeod

[phil-b259]

Aren't those civil offences that are judged on the balance of probabilities as opposed to criminal offences requiring to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt"?

I'm not a lawyer but someone reading this must know the law. 

 

According to a statement by the BTP

 

"A 42-year-old man from Beckenham has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and is currently in police custody"

 

see http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13403/updated_statement_on_tram_derailment_-_croydon

[rob D2]

Ooh dare anyone have a different view. Get real. I am just having my say. The moderators who make the decisions will decide.

I know someone who found out thier daughter had topped herself in a hospital 2 hours after the first farcebook post so in my mind it really isnt fair or humane to encourage uninformed internet chat about this kind of thing.

Inglenookfan

 

Without uninformed Internet chat , there is no internet.

 

I'm quite happy to read speculation - it's human nature to speculate

[martin_wynne]

Without uninformed Internet chat , there is no internet.

 

I'm quite happy to read speculation - it's human nature to speculate

 

If you don't have the facts it is wise not to say anything which could turn out to be wrong.

 

If inappropriate content is posted, it should be reported to the moderators and deleted.

 

What is infuriating is the frequent request for topics to be locked. Which achieves the exact opposite result -- incorrect details are locked in place and cannot be amended, and will be indexed on Google for 100 years.

 

Martin.