Hornby announce Class 800 IEP

[royaloak]

Uh

 

Oh! Really?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TIZ6eKhinl4/maxresdefault.jpg


Ron

 both ends are sticking out but because they are sticking out the same amount it isnt visible.

 

There is a video of one entering the sidings at Newton Aycliffe and the end throw is quite extreme.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Uh

 

 

 both ends are sticking out but because they are sticking out the same amount it isnt visible.

 

There is a video of one entering the sidings at Newton Aycliffe and the end throw is quite extreme.

On another forum, last year, figures were published for a number of train vehicles, giving centre throw, centre underthrow and vehicle end deflection for a couple of given curves.

IIRC there is greater end deflection on a mk4 coach and a 23m Class 444 vehicle than on a 26m Class 800.

From what I've read from informed sources, the Class 800 vehicle end taper, keeps the vehicle within the same kinematic profile as a mk3. That's why the taper is there.

[Revolution Mike B]

These coaches are longer than a Mk3 but the bogies are at the same centres. There is this a greater overhang on curves - hence the reported issue.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

The bogies aren't at the same centres! Have a look at post #513

Edited March 12, 2018 by scoobyra

[tetsudofan]

Not having heard anything further from Hornby since my post above I contacted Hornby this morning and managed to speak to the same guy that I spoke to on February 22nd.

 

We chatted for a few minutes and then he  said that he would arrange collection of my set on Monday and within a few minutes I got a text from DPD advising that my Hornby parcel will be collected on Monday.

 

Keith

 

As advised DPD has just collected my Cl.800 - not quite sure where DPD's sorting depot is but be interesting to see what route the package takes to get from CT20 to CT13, certainly not as the crow flies.

 

Keith

[keybuk]

Hornby got back to me about the Sound Decoder fitting issues.

 

This was their response:

 

I have spoken with the development team on your behalf, they have informed that this product is DCC ready and not DCC sound ready.

[SteveC32]

Hornby got back to me about the Sound Decoder fitting issues.

 

This was their response:

So why did they put in a space for a speaker and holes for the sound to come out from? That ‘sort of suggests’ sound ready

[Coryton]

So why did they put in a space for a speaker and holes for the sound to come out from? That ‘sort of suggests’ sound ready

 

Because it was designed to be DCC sound ready but it didn't quite work out so now it's officially not sound ready?

[royaloak]

From what I've read from informed sources, the Class 800 vehicle end taper, keeps the vehicle within the same kinematic profile as a mk3. That's why the taper is there.

Yes they do on the real railway, but unfortunately most of us dont have scale curves due to space constraints so our curves are just a little bit tighter hence the increased end swing.

[TFR]

Test Train packs have arrived at Hornby's warehouse 

[Coryton]

Yes they do on the real railway, but unfortunately most of us dont have scale curves due to space constraints so our curves are just a little bit tighter hence the increased end swing.

 

Yes and on train set curves the centre throw (if that's the right word) is likewise increased hugely and we space our curves accordingly.

 

I had assumed that both end swing and centre throw would scale in the same way with decreasing curve radius and just as in real life an IET coach (with its tapered ends) would go where a Mark III does. But maybe it doesn't work like that.

[royaloak]

These 

 

Yes and on train set curves the centre throw (if that's the right word) is likewise increased hugely and we space our curves accordingly.

 

I had assumed that both end swing and centre throw would scale in the same way with decreasing curve radius and just as in real life an IET coach (with its tapered ends) would go where a Mark III does. But maybe it doesn't work like that.

The model IET coaches effectively have roughly an extra 20mm on the ends (equivalent to 1.5m in real world) and that 20mm is certainly noticeable when going through reverse curves.

 

I will try and find that video of an 802 entering the siding at Newton Aycliffe, with the throw of the coach end it looks like a model.

[Red Fox]

I've had my 800 for about a week and I'm experiencing the derailing problem with centre coach 812004. The other two centre coaches came with the factory applied filling of the damper anchor point so don't seem to have a problem. 

 

I set up an S shape of Hornby R3 curves and pushed 812004 along it on its own. The first few times it derailed, the yaw damper on one bogie jamming on the anchor point and forcing the body side out as other have experienced, but after two or three times it seemed to correct itself and not derail.  Lifted coach off the track and put it back on and the pattern repeated, derailed a few times and then corrects itself.  Most odd!

[tarifa]

I collected my Class 800 from my local model shop on Monday morning.  Now imagine my trepidation regarding the running performance having been reading all the negativity comments on this topic, expecting the model to fall off the rails at every curve and point.  But no it did not.  The model did however show up a protruding point motor pin causing the power car to derail at this point with the battery box (I think it is, the silver bit) catching on the protruding pin.  Quickly cutting off the guilty protrusion the train ran perfectly at all speeds.  The coach lights were very dim running on analogue as I expected.  I fitted a Lenz gold decoder in each of the driving cars and test run the model.  It runs perfect on DCC (and DC) at all speeds and looks very impressive whipping around the layout.  The coach lighting is now just right with 14 volts on the track.  BTW my smallest radius is 22".

 

Those chaps experiencing derailing problems, check your track and ensure it is level.  I have noted on a couple of videos wobbles at certain places on the filmed roundy roundy.

 

Now for sound.  I will need to custom make a speaker to fit the allocated spot.  But the actual dilemma is the sound itself.  The driving cars are electric motors and the two coaches (with the battery box I think) have the MTU engines and power packs under the floor.  To operate both modes a switch-able decoder is required indicating a Zimo decoder that allows switching between sound sets.  Next problem, where do I get the sounds from.

 

Mike

[Phil Mc]

I've had my 800 for about a week and I'm experiencing the derailing problem with centre coach 812004. The other two centre coaches came with the factory applied filling of the damper anchor point so don't seem to have a problem. 

 

I set up an S shape of Hornby R3 curves and pushed 812004 along it on its own. The first few times it derailed, the yaw damper on one bogie jamming on the anchor point and forcing the body side out as other have experienced, but after two or three times it seemed to correct itself and not derail.  Lifted coach off the track and put it back on and the pattern repeated, derailed a few times and then corrects itself.  Most odd!

That's just what mine did !!

 

Cheers,

Phil.

[tetsudofan]

I collected my Class 800 from my local model shop on Monday morning.  Now imagine my trepidation regarding the running performance having been reading all the negativity comments on this topic, expecting the model to fall off the rails at every curve and point.  But no it did not.  The model did however show up a protruding point motor pin causing the power car to derail at this point with the battery box (I think it is, the silver bit) catching on the protruding pin.  Quickly cutting off the guilty protrusion the train ran perfectly at all speeds.  The coach lights were very dim running on analogue as I expected.  I fitted a Lenz gold decoder in each of the driving cars and test run the model.  It runs perfect on DCC (and DC) at all speeds and looks very impressive whipping around the layout.  The coach lighting is now just right with 14 volts on the track.  BTW my smallest radius is 22".

 

Those chaps experiencing derailing problems, check your track and ensure it is level.  I have noted on a couple of videos wobbles at certain places on the filmed roundy roundy.

 

Now for sound.  I will need to custom make a speaker to fit the allocated spot.  But the actual dilemma is the sound itself.  The driving cars are electric motors and the two coaches (with the battery box I think) have the MTU engines and power packs under the floor.  To operate both modes a switch-able decoder is required indicating a Zimo decoder that allows switching between sound sets.  Next problem, where do I get the sounds from.

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

 

Don't think I agree with you when you refer to "all the negativity comments". All of us who have experienced problems have pointed out the problems but have also said that this is a fantastic model. 

 

Regarding your suggestion that those chaps experiencing derailing problems should check their track and ensure that it is level you might be interested to know that last night I did exactly did that and ran my Javelin Cl.395 at quite excessive speed (which I don't normally run at) and experienced no such derailments - it flew through a number of points and climbed up and down the gradients without derailing just as I would expect my Cl.800 to do and which, once my set is returned by Hornby, I expect it to do.

 

Keith

[tarifa]

Hi Mike,

 

Don't think I agree with you when you refer to "all the negativity comments". All of us who have experienced problems have pointed out the problems but have also said that this is a fantastic model. 

 

Regarding your suggestion that those chaps experiencing derailing problems should check their track and ensure that it is level you might be interested to know that last night I did exactly did that and ran my Javelin Cl.395 at quite excessive speed (which I don't normally run at) and experienced no such derailments - it flew through a number of points and climbed up and down the gradients without derailing just as I would expect my Cl.800 to do and which, once my set is returned by Hornby, I expect it to do.

 

Keith

Hello Keith,

 

I'm not being critical of the "negative comments" made by the various owners advising of derailments.  Its good to know what the potential problems might be with newly released kit.   A friend of mine returned his set of coaches to Hornby due to derailing, whatever Hornby did the set now runs fine.  In my experience my derailments are usually caused by problems with track or wrongly set back to backs of the wheel sets.

 

And I do agree it is a cracking model.

 

Mike

[robf]

It is a fantastic model.

 

I notice the limited edition "test" 2 car set is now out.  I'm looking forward to that one coming (no issue with the centre cars there).

 

In terms of the derailing, I spoke to Hornby yesterday.  Yes, they are aware of the issue with the centre cars and are very embarrassed about it, as it worked well on their test track.  They believe they know what the issue is and are working on the fix.  I was told to call back next week for an update. 

 

In fairness Hornby have been very helpful and apologetic.

Edited March 14, 2018 by robf

[dibber25]

I collected my Class 800 from my local model shop on Monday morning.  Now imagine my trepidation regarding the running performance having been reading all the negativity comments on this topic, expecting the model to fall off the rails at every curve and point.  But no it did not.  The model did however show up a protruding point motor pin causing the power car to derail at this point with the battery box (I think it is, the silver bit) catching on the protruding pin.  Quickly cutting off the guilty protrusion the train ran perfectly at all speeds.  The coach lights were very dim running on analogue as I expected.  I fitted a Lenz gold decoder in each of the driving cars and test run the model.  It runs perfect on DCC (and DC) at all speeds and looks very impressive whipping around the layout.  The coach lighting is now just right with 14 volts on the track.  BTW my smallest radius is 22".

 

Those chaps experiencing derailing problems, check your track and ensure it is level.  I have noted on a couple of videos wobbles at certain places on the filmed roundy roundy.

 

Now for sound.  I will need to custom make a speaker to fit the allocated spot.  But the actual dilemma is the sound itself.  The driving cars are electric motors and the two coaches (with the battery box I think) have the MTU engines and power packs under the floor.  To operate both modes a switch-able decoder is required indicating a Zimo decoder that allows switching between sound sets.  Next problem, where do I get the sounds from.

 

Mike

 

The train is driven by electric traction motors. The three non-driving cars have underfloor diesel engines and generators to provide power to the traction motors when not drawing current from the overhead. The derailment problems appear to stem from very minor variations in assembly with regard to the fit of the body to the chassis and the tightness of the screws holding the coupling bars. The silver unit under the doors is the retention tank for the toilets. (CJL)

[Legend]

 

In fairness Hornby have been very helpful and apologetic.

If contacted directly

[tarifa]

The train is driven by electric traction motors. The three non-driving cars have underfloor diesel engines and generators to provide power to the traction motors when not drawing current from the overhead. The derailment problems appear to stem from very minor variations in assembly with regard to the fit of the body to the chassis and the tightness of the screws holding the coupling bars. The silver unit under the doors is the retention tank for the toilets. (CJL)

Thanks for that Chris, so the driving car(s) traction motors are supplied with power from the diesel engines in the centre cars via batteries or is the power generated direct to the traction motors from the alternators.  If this is the case how is the phase balancing achieved.

 

Mike

[dibber25]

Thanks for that Chris, so the driving car(s) traction motors are supplied with power from the diesel engines in the centre cars via batteries or is the power generated direct to the traction motors from the alternators.  If this is the case how is the phase balancing achieved.

 

Mike

 

Sorry, I'm not tech enough to answer that. As I understand it, the diesel unit is what is described as a 'gen-set'. When you stand beside them on tick-over it's not obvious where the engine noise is coming from - it's just a low rumble. Not like the Voyagers and 166s with their deafening scream. (CJL)

Edited March 15, 2018 by dibber25

[Rob F]

Sorry, I'm not tech enough to answer that. As I understand it, the diesel unit is what is described as a 'gen-set'. When you stand beside them on tick-over it's not obvious where the engine noise is coming from - it's just a low rumble. Not like the Voyagers and 166s with their deafening scream. (CJL)

 

The driving cars are trailers and carry the transformer and associated gubbins for 25kV operation. The intermediate cars on a 5 coach set have diesel engines and are motored on all axles. When running on 25kV, this supplies the power to the traction motors on the centre cars.

 

9 coach sets also have 2 intermediate trailers, without traction motors or diesel engines.

 

Rob

[HillsideDepot]

Sorry, I'm not tech enough to answer that. As I understand it, the diesel unit is what is described as a 'gen-set'. When you stand beside them on tick-over it's not obvious where the engine noise is coming from - it's just a low rumble. Not like the Voyagers and 166s with their deafening scream. (CJL)

Likewise, a non-tech answer, but when they are standing at a station on diesel there is as much noise coming from something under the driving car (which has no diesel engine) as from the adjacent diesel-engined car. Not that either is especially loud.

 

The Platform 5 stock book shows them as 2-2 + Bo-Bo + Bo-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-2 suggesting that the pantograph cars collect the power and pass it on to the motors in the centre 3 cars. Although the driving/pantograph cars may well do something (transform it?) to the power before passing it to the motor cars, certainly there would be some design logic to mounting equipment on the pantograph car for weight distribution.  

 

I completely understand why Hornby made use of the blanked out "windows" in the kitchen/staff area to hide the motor, but in some ways its rather like the tender-drive steam loco models of yore where the model is powered from a different place to the real thing.

[dibber25]

Likewise, a non-tech answer, but when they are standing at a station on diesel there is as much noise coming from something under the driving car (which has no diesel engine) as from the adjacent diesel-engined car. Not that either is especially loud.

 

The Platform 5 stock book shows them as 2-2 + Bo-Bo + Bo-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-2 suggesting that the pantograph cars collect the power and pass it on to the motors in the centre 3 cars. Although the driving/pantograph cars may well do something (transform it?) to the power before passing it to the motor cars, certainly there would be some design logic to mounting equipment on the pantograph car for weight distribution.  

 

I completely understand why Hornby made use of the blanked out "windows" in the kitchen/staff area to hide the motor, but in some ways its rather like the tender-drive steam loco models of yore where the model is powered from a different place to the real thing.

 

I'm guessing - non-technical again - that the noise from the driving cars is traction motor cooling. I agree, the noise doesn't change much, whichever car you stand beside. I recall thinking how noisy the first Adelante I saw was, when standing at Kemble. In similar circumstances the IET is pretty quiet, even when it accelerates away. (CJL)

[Coryton]

I'm guessing - non-technical again - that the noise from the driving cars is traction motor cooling. I agree, the noise doesn't change much, whichever car you stand beside. I recall thinking how noisy the first Adelante I saw was, when standing at Kemble. In similar circumstances the IET is pretty quiet, even when it accelerates away. (CJL)

 

The noise from the driving cars won't be traction motor cooling because they have no traction motors.

 

In a 5 car unit: driving cars have the pantographs but no diesel engines or motors.

The non-driving cars have diesel engines and motors (but no pantographs).

 

I don't think you can easily have all three in one vehicle because that would need a high floor to fit over the diesel engines, and a low floor to give enough headroom under the pantograph.

 

I think the 9 cars have intermediate cars which lack pantographs, motors or diesel engines.

 

I seem to recall reading that the noise under the driving cars is due to the auxiliary convertors, whatever they are.

 

Whatever it is certainly does make some noise, so that under electric power the "quiet" coaches have more external noise than the other ones, and even under diesel I think they might still be noisier.

 

 

I completely understand why Hornby made use of the blanked out "windows" in the kitchen/staff area to hide the motor, but in some ways its rather like the tender-drive steam loco models of yore where the model is powered from a different place to the real thing.

 

Indeed, but worse because the two car packs consist of two driving trailers that in real life wouldn't be able to go anywhere under their own power, diesel or electric. We'll never see the like of two HST power cars running back to back with an IET.

 

It doesn't look anything like as daft, but a two car IET is as practical as a motorised tender running around under its own steam (which in fact the one motorised tender I have won't because it needs to be connected to the locomotive to pick up power from one rail - and even when it does it doesn't go anywhere because the Mazak gear wheel has cracked...but that's a different story).