THE 'USA' TANKS - WHAT'S NEXT?

[WD0-6-0]

I'd happily take an early BR skirted version and two coaches!

Count me in Chris

[Grasslands]

It's a bit like the Class 08 situation, where the models tend to be wide over the rods. 'Scale' valve gear would be very small and fragile, so rods might well be thicker than scale and protrude more than they should, but once you put a plastic side skirt over it you'd be well over width because a 1mm plastic plate would scale 3in thick to represent 1/4in (or less) steel plate. That then has knock-on effects to the whole body width. All this is pure speculation, based on a couple of hours sitting round a table playing with a kit-built model and a motor or two and asking, "what if we did.....". If it turned out that we could squeeze everything in to one model, with the correct overall dimensions, I'm sure that's the way we'd do it. Just at the moment we have a lot of "what ifs....." (CJL)

 

I am fascinated and pleased that you and your Model Rail team are considering a non-sided plated version Chris. I think I posted a RMweb topic on this a long time ago, and there was some discussion about using N-gauge parts to achieve the valve gear. My main issue was the wheel base and assumed that I would have to create my own chassis. If Model Rail is willing to fund the R&D then I am game to put my money on the table . There are some fascinating variations of the prototype with missing bits of side plate and cow catcher. 

[stewartingram]

As you are willing to take comments from here, I will add mine. (I did the survey at Warley though).

 

A present owner of a very old K's J70 (and actually an excellent runner, one of my best) in BRITISH RAILWAYS livery. Also a Connoisseur Y6 under construction, along with D&S 4 wheel and bogie coaches. As a local, these are definitely a YES from me.

 

My Y6 is to be done in GER livery, I would like to add a J70 in GER colours too.

The K's would be complemented by an identical livery one (can't replace it after all this while).

And a BR lion version to complete my set.

All with side skirts and poseable windows/doors.

If the coach(es) were to appear as well, yes please!

 

I should know the answer to this, but thought the skirts were only removed when going to Stratford? Presumably I'm wrong on that. Also, with the similarities of the J70/Y6, (I haven't actually checked drawings etc), is it possible to cover both? I am aware of the 0-4-0/0-6-0 difference, but there are skirts, and K's hid the wheels.....

 

 

Stewart

[lochlongside]

I'm quite happy to pick up comments from here, too. We really just need to get an impression of what people want. We think we know what will appeal to other modellers because it appeals to us but its nice to have 'gut feeling' reinforced with positive comments. To answer a couple of questions from above:

The 'USA' took a long time but let's not exaggerate! Within that time frame were not one but two false starts but we are happy that we got a better model in the end. 

Manufacturers take the time that they need to do the job. I understand that it was the USA and the S stock which occupied Bachmann's designers for a very long time, causing delays to other products. We certainly can't persuade manufacturers to do rapid turnrounds - and if we did, no doubt the end customer would be paying a lot extra for the privilege. 

The J70 project is under negotiation with Rapido Trains of Canada. Based on current performance they turn projects round in well under two years.

The materials used in construction would be decided by the manufacturer with due regard to the fact that this is a very small locomotive which needs to have its haulage capacity maximised. (CJL)

I would guess that you guys have probably already put some thought into this including forecasting quantities that you can sell if you have committed (?) to Rapido but you do say you are asking for suggestions   . Whilst it is almost a totemic loco (thanks to Toby) it does have a very limited range of liveries, lifespan and geographical range which could impact on multiple sales. Yes I will definitely buy one - but probably only one !!

 

If it is not too late to suggest alternative locos did you consider if any of the following small locos might sell more?

1. J67/69 class which in 1958 at least were found from London up to Dundee and west from Wrexham to Lowestoft (at least according to IA 1958 shed code book), were sold to MOD (Melbourne and LMR) and one of which is available for measurement in the NRM collection. Liveries range from various versions of post WW1 grey, grouping black thro LNER green (E8619) to GER/BR blue  at Liverpool St and later no 73 in NRM collection.
2. Fowler Dock Tank 47160-9 found from Devons Road, via Lancashire to Scotland(Edinburgh and Greenock) but probably only in black,
3. or given initial response to Hornby Peckett an industrial 0-6-0T; e.g. a Peckett (X Class), or one of the Avonside,  big Barclays, Manning-Wardles, or Hudswell/RSH locos.

I would think that given the wider geographical distribution and scope in some cases for livery variations of any of these the market for multiple  sales without having to design a specialist passenger vehicle is possibly more likely?

[Steamport Southport]

I would guess that you guys have probably already put some thought into this including forecasting quantities that you can sell if you have committed (?) to Rapido but you do say you are asking for suggestions   . Whilst it is almost a totemic loco (thanks to Toby) it does have a very limited range of liveries, lifespan and geographical range which could impact on multiple sales. Yes I will definitely buy one - but probably only one !!

 

 

You could have said the same about the USAs and they seem to have sold well. Particularly to those that didn't need one.

 

 

Limited lifespan. 1942 - 1967 for the USA as opposed to 1903 - 1955 for the J70. Okay there's a few preserved examples, but the J70 has a few mock ups knocking about.

 

Limited colours. The USAs were mostly black with a couple of rare exceptions. How many model the Longmoor Military Railway or K&WVR? Not many. The J70 has blue, grey and black liveries depending on era. Apparently some were GER coach livery red at one point.

 

Limited geography. Southampton docks or internal user at a small number of locations on the SR as opposed to the J70s that spent most of their lives at docks in East Anglia, the Wisbech and Upwell or other small East Anglian branch lines and London. Yes the USA worked elsewhere during the war, but how many actually model WW2 dockyards?

 

 

They've also got the cute factor. The USA is many things however cute isn't one of them.

 

This is a winner IMO. I'm surprised that one of the "big boys" haven't picked it up previously apart from the Thomas The Tank Engine versions.

 

 

Jason

[Butler Henderson]

You could have said the same about the USAs and they seem to have sold well. Particularly to those that didn't need one.

 

The obvious difference to the USA is that none are preserved. I only bought a USA as I could run it as an genuine preserved loco. Suppose 'Toby' will justify it to some but all those who bought the USA because they had seen one/ travelled behind one on the Bluebell, Worth Valley etc are sales that will not occur with this one.

[Steamport Southport]

The obvious difference to the USA is that none are preserved. I only bought a USA as I could run it as an genuine preserved loco. Suppose 'Toby' will justify it to some but all those who bought the USA because they had seen one/ travelled behind one on the Bluebell, Worth Valley etc are sales that will not occur with this one.

 

I don't know. If people bought things because they are preserved or had travelled behind them then everyone would be buying Austerities in their thousands.

 

 

Jason

[Oldddudders]

I think the skirts are an essential part of the "difference" a tram engine displays. They legitimise its use of public-highway rails. If engineering the correct valve-gear is tedious/difficult/expensive, then hiding it is an effective route to omission. 

[EddieB]

I should know the answer to this, but thought the skirts were only removed when going to Stratford? Presumably I'm wrong on that. Also, with the similarities of the J70/Y6, (I haven't actually checked drawings etc), is it possible to cover both? I am aware of the 0-4-0/0-6-0 difference, but there are skirts, and K's hid the wheels.....

 

 

Stewart

I've seen photos of some working at Ipswich with their skirts removed - but (apart from in the works) I don't think it happened elsewhere.  

 

Also having a skirted K's model, I quite the skirtless version.

 

(No sniggering at the back).

[Steamport Southport]

Fnar.

 

 

I've just put LNER J70 into Google Images and most of the photos that have come up don't have skirts, including those pulling trains. I'm quite surprised by that.

 

 

 

Jason

[locoholic]

Hmmm...

 

I know that anyone saying anything negative is immediately labelled a whinger, but here goes anyway.

 

I think the J70 without the skirt looks ugly, and in my opinion it wouldn't sell very well, and I expect the extra tooling to produce the valve gear would make it pretty expensive.

 

The J70 with the skirt is a quaint loco, and would probably sell reasonably well. The same applies to the coach, even though the passenger service finished in 1927.

 

However, I can't help thinking that there are other prototypes that would have a wider appeal, such as a J69 (which would go with the coach, for the Tollesbury line), a 16xx, or the North London tank (Cromford & High Peak as well as NLR & Bluebell line), etc etc.

 

But what do I know? I wasn't really interested in the USA tank, but for some reason I now own two of them...  there will have to be lots of railtours on my layout.

 

Good luck with whatever you finally go with.

[John B]

I'd happily commit to a skirted version in each of the livery combinations, and a pair of coaches. Always had a hankering for the W&U.

[9402 Fredrick]

I would definitely like an LNER skirted one with DCC sound & one of the tram coaches, plus the opening end doors & windows would be superb detail, very good for crew adding.

[BillH]

I've seen photos of some working at Ipswich with their skirts removed - but (apart from in the works) I don't think it happened elsewhere.  

 

Also having a skirted K's model, I quite the skirtless version.

 

(No sniggering at the back).

By the early 1950s there was one at Yarmouth (cowcatchers only- no side skirts), three at Ipswich(cowcatchers only- no side skirts), one at Colchester (no cow-catcher or side skirts) and five at Kings Lynn (Wisbech). Of these five one at least one (the much photographed 68225) was operating with cow catchers and no side skirts and one of the others with partial side plates. when they travelled to Stratford or March for servicing they did so without cow catchers or side plates.

 

So of the 10 left at the time the early BR totem was introduced

 

5 were running with cow catcher only

1 had no cowcatcher or side plates

at least 1 had cowcatcher and partial side plates

3 probably had the full skirt and side plates

 

In the early LNER era those at Yarmouth and Wisbech ran with skirts all the time and in the GER era there is a photo of one shunting at Ipswich with skirts in place. Also from Yeadon volume 48 they were shedded variously  at Cambridge, Norwich, Stratford and March over the years as well as Kings Lynn, Colchester, Ipswich and Yarmouth that they are more commonly associated with. A couple were also loaned to the Wissington light Railway during WWII.

[Frappington Jct]

I'd definitely go for at least one in BR lettering, maybe one with the early crest and possibly a coach or two, the quantities would vary depending on the lead time and whether I've finished uni before they arrive! I'm not overly fussed in terms of skirts or not (I actually think the outside valve gear adds to the appeal, makes it look even stranger!), though the implied extra cost of a skirtless option might push me away abit. Needless to say I'd buy one regardless!

[Corbs]

I'd definitely buy a W&U coach or two, although the Silver Fox J70 is surely a competitor? 

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/lner-class-j70-y6-tram-loco/

 

I know it is quite basic and does not feature the detail that the proposed one would (and I am sure if the new J70 went ahead then it would be a thing of beauty), but it is broadly the same thing, for £75 ready to run.

 

This one is particularly nice

https://grasslandsmodels.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/rolling-stock-j70-0-6-0-tram-engine/

 

Sorry if this sounds negative, I just want to be honest that the existing model on the market comes within my 'cheap enough but good enough' bracket (Although I've not yet bought one. It's on the list though).

[Talltim]

Looks like I was prescient! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104272-the-wishlist-poll-2015/?p=2069694

It's about the only UK loco I would buy nowadays. I'd have to go with the GE livery (with skirts), I would buy coaches too.

I find it interesting the amount of people who have said they'd buy it even though it doesn't fit with the rest of their stuff, but have gone for BR (i.e. the same period as their other modelling) when something completely different gives the opportunity to model a different era.

[Steamport Southport]

I'd definitely buy a W&U coach or two, although the Silver Fox J70 is surely a competitor? 

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/lner-class-j70-y6-tram-loco/

 

I know it is quite basic and does not feature the detail that the proposed one would (and I am sure if the new J70 went ahead then it would be a thing of beauty), but it is broadly the same thing, for £75 ready to run.

 

This one is particularly nice

https://grasslandsmodels.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/rolling-stock-j70-0-6-0-tram-engine/

 

Sorry if this sounds negative, I just want to be honest that the existing model on the market comes within my 'cheap enough but good enough' bracket (Although I've not yet bought one. It's on the list though).

 

It might be a bit telling that people who already have those models are either commissioning this model (Chris Leigh built one in Model Rail July 2005) or have already expressed an interest in one (Grasslands in post #32).

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

I'd definitely go for at least one in BR lettering, maybe one with the early crest and possibly a coach or two, the quantities would vary depending on the lead time and whether I've finished uni before they arrive! I'm not overly fussed in terms of skirts or not (I actually think the outside valve gear adds to the appeal, makes it look even stranger!), though the implied extra cost of a skirtless option might push me away abit. Needless to say I'd buy one regardless!

 

That's my thinking.

 

One of the early BR liveried ones without skirts would look good if it's practical. Or should I go for a GER one and coach?

 

 

I'll also be buying one regardless!

 

 

 

Jason

[Corbs]

It might be a bit telling that people who already have those models are either commissioning this model (Chris Leigh built one in Model Rail July 2005) or have already expressed an interest in one (Grasslands in post #32).

 

 

 

Jason

Yes good point, I guess those people who already made the effort to make one are enthusiasts who like the loco. People's buying habits for RTR seem to be more liberal than kits anyway so you are probably right.

[TonyA]

I agree with Tim that this is one loco that would tempt be to model UK again. I have loved this class ever since getting a newly published Toby the Tram Engine for Christmas 1952

 

Being different from everything else I will be doing, I would probably go for LNER livery with skirts (and sound if available) and build a small harbour shunting layout.

 

Tony

[BillH]

 

 

 

 

 

 Also, with the similarities of the J70/Y6, (I haven't actually checked drawings etc), is it possible to cover both? I am aware of the 0-4-0/0-6-0 difference, but there are skirts, and K's hid the wheels.....

 

 

 

 

In regard to the Y6s the most obvious visual difference with the J70s (when the skirts were on) were the steps to the cab being a larger hole rather than individual steps. This is because the Y6s had inside cylinders and the J70s outside cylinders that were in the way of the Y6 style steps. The j70s were also 8 inches longer . There was also a couple of differences between the J70s themselves with a some having stepped buffer shanks and some parallel, one had a cap for it's spark arrestor and some retained their safety chains while others had them removed.  

[dibber25]

Other classes of 0-6-0T? We did a small straw-poll but the J70 was the only one that stood out. The USA has shown that an 0-6-0T has to have some special appeal beyond being just another 0-6-0T. The ready-to-run and kit markets are increasingly separate. All the kits are designed to run on a four-wheel motor bogie and this usually means that quality of slow-running and continuity of electrical pick-up are both constrained. We would expect to have a six-coupled chassis and superior slow running. The model would also be configured for easy DCC and sound, probably at the expense of the internal boiler detail which is present in most kits. (CJL)

[Corbs]

FINE I'LL BUY ONE

 

 

 

Skirted and with coaches please

[Gaz101]

Excellent news, would love to see these produced!

I'd probably buy one or two, with preferences for:

• skirted
• 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' then either early BR logo or LNER
• doors open at one end (but no need for them to be open-able); likewise side windows open

Not likely to buy the coach.

Good luck with this!