Hawk Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Could I interest the good people of RmWeb in a little industrial espionage project? I am planning to make a 0-scale model of this Norwegian meter-gauge mineral wagon : So I am looking for kits of similar British mineral wagons. Both etched kits and cast resin are of interest. As this is a rather small wagon, both 4mm and 7mm models are of interest. I am not looking for models that can be kit-bashed into this wagon, but ideas and concepts for how to design a kit for this exact wagon. I should add that I am planning a fine-scale model. I am also interested in scratch built models, especially building threads on this forum. As I will make the "kit" for personal use only and the prototype is a obscure wagon that no kit producer anywhere would ever make a kit for, I hope you agree that my "espionage" does not hurt anyones bottom line! On the contrary, I will probably buy a couple of models for "reverse engineering". By the way, I am not totally clueless, as I have built another mineral wagon from this railway. But this wagon had a wooden body, and the biggest challenge for the new project is the metal body with its thin and delicate plate work. Scale thickness 0.2mm (slightly under 10 thou) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted December 21, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2016 Your last wagon was a masterpiece! But this prototype is too continental for there to be a British kit. The closest you'd get is using a BR 10 foot wheelbase steel under frame, but would this satisfy you? I don't think there is a British prototype which resembles the hopper or brake end so you'd need to scratchbuild? Good luck! Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 If you are going to build a 7 mm scale version, I think you should be writing up a second thread for this model using the same process you have used before. Which is a stunning piece of model making. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Wonderful mix of features. The wagon frame and almost all of the running gear straight out of the RCH playbook, everything else very different! C19th chain and hook coupling and chopper and brake piped and a brakeman's shack... Since you could build all the topsides metal structure from sheet and extruded angle sections that's not the real challenge. The silver-grey rotting and splintering woodwork now, that's a real test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Hopper and wagon chassis in brass, the hut on the end could be plasticard. The nearest wagons would be 4mm hopper wagons either rtr or kit built. Do you have ready access to measure the wagon up? If so why not go down the etched brass kit route? Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted December 21, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2016 Interesting looking wagon, I can't be of any help in building but look forward to seeing your attempt. Having gone to the effort of giving the brakeman a little cabin, you'd have thought they might have given him a step or two to climb in with too...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 If looking for a comparator, I would suggest Dave Bradwell's kits for Chas Roberts-built hoppers, developed for the NCB and, later British Railways: https://traders.scalefour.org/DaveBradwell/rolling-stock/ Otherwise, perhaps anything from Justin Newitt's Rumney Models? http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/ I reckon that these would work out at about the same size as the wagon you have in mind and provide some useful ideas about design. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 Thanks a lot for all the interest in my little project! I feel I must stress that I m not looking for commercial model to kit-bash, but kits that might have solved the challenge of mass-producing a riveted hopper with a rather delicate cross-section. I think that etched parts in 0,25 mm nickel-silver will give very nice results, but the building time will be prohibitive. I would love to see a etched kit with a hopper with some of the same features. I have seen a D&S kit that seems to give nice results, but as I understand it, these kits are no longer available. You if you scroll down, you can see the model here. This model has an etched body with riveted strips along the top and corners, and I suspect it will have solutions to quite a few of my problems as well. But then again, how nice would it not have been to have a batch of 30 resin bodies made by a custom caster! If I ever get around to build a string of those wooden wagons, i would definitively go for castings. As the sides are a scale 1mm thick, they should be perfectly suited for resin castings. I would love to have any experienced resin casters opinions on making a casting of the metal hoppers. How thin can you go with a resin casting? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Hmm - perhaps these might give you some ideas about the body? http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/bogie-steel-wagon-kits Having built one - indeed, the bauxite wagon illustrated is that very wagon - the design has a structural subframe with the rivet detail supplied as half-etched overlays. These work quite well. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 Hmm - perhaps these might give you some ideas about the body? http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/bogie-steel-wagon-kits Having built one - indeed, the bauxite wagon illustrated is that very wagon - the design has a structural subframe with the rivet detail supplied as half-etched overlays. These work quite well. Adam That is exactly the type of thing I am looking for! Is the body a resin casting, or is it injection moulded? And can I bother you with measuring the thickenss of the plastic hopper? By the way, I made an attempt many years ago (note the yellowing of the styrene!) to build a styrene version of the wagon: The hopper is in fact not so shabby, but the underframe leaves a lot to be desired! And hand-punching the rivets for a rake of wagons? I dont think so... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted December 21, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2016 What a fascinating prototype. Don't envy the brakesman who has to ride in that cabin in Norwegian weather though. I have seen some US wagon kits (HO) with very thin resin sides. So that is possible. But I think etched brass might suit your purposes better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 What a fascinating prototype. Don't envy the brakesman who has to ride in that cabin in Norwegian weather though. I have seen some US wagon kits (HO) with very thin resin sides. So that is possible. But I think etched brass might suit your purposes better. At least the brakesman had a little shelter from the elements, on the wooden wagons they rode on an open platform. I also think that they installed electric ovens in the later operating years. The railway was abandoned in 1976. I haven't thought about checking out US kits, thanks for the tip! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 That is exactly the type of thing I am looking for! Is the body a resin casting, or is it injection moulded? And can I bother you with measuring the thickenss of the plastic hopper? By the way, I made an attempt many years ago (note the yellowing of the styrene!) to build a styrene version of the wagon: The hopper is in fact not so shabby, but the underframe leaves a lot to be desired! And hand-punching the rivets for a rake of wagons? I dont think so... Justin's kit is etched brass - there's an etched core (0.3mm brass or thereabouts) - with half-etched overlays. The top flange obscures the apparent thickness slightly. These are very effective in 4mm, but might not be in O scale. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Thanks a lot for all the interest in my little project! I feel I must stress that I m not looking for commercial model to kit-bash, but kits that might have solved the challenge of mass-producing a riveted hopper with a rather delicate cross-section. I think that etched parts in 0,25 mm nickel-silver will give very nice results, but the building time will be prohibitive. I would love to see a etched kit with a hopper with some of the same features. I have seen a D&S kit that seems to give nice results, but as I understand it, these kits are no longer available. You if you scroll down, you can see the model here. This model has an etched body with riveted strips along the top and corners, and I suspect it will have solutions to quite a few of my problems as well. But then again, how nice would it not have been to have a batch of 30 resin bodies made by a custom caster! If I ever get around to build a string of those wooden wagons, i would definitively go for castings. As the sides are a scale 1mm thick, they should be perfectly suited for resin castings. I would love to have any experienced resin casters opinions on making a casting of the metal hoppers. How thin can you go with a resin casting? Hi Hawk, While the 4mm scale D&S GER Loco Coal wagon kit might not be available, I am sure that the 7mm version probably is still available from Danny Pinnock. I have one in my inbuilt kit's stash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 The hopper parts can be etched from nickel-silver sheet but 0.2mm thickness is like a single layer of kitchen paper*, so too thin. Aim for 0.5mm instead, the difference isn't notable and it'll increase your success rate building it Etching the parts for the hopper is indeed an option. But I beg to differ regarding the thickness of the metal. I used 0,25 mm nickel-silver for the mineral wagon, and I think this thickness worked very well. 0,25 should be more than stiff enough considering that the box is stiffened by bracing and the flange along the top. The prototype also have a beam across the top, and this will stiffen the hopper as well: PS: Note how small the meter gauge wagon is compared to the standard gauge flatcar it is piggybacking on! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
katwigan Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 You could try stirring some interest in someone with CAD experience who could draw up suitable plans for etching, maybe one of the chaps in the CAD Section of the Forum on here could help. Just a thought Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 You could try stirring some interest in someone with CAD experience who could draw up suitable plans for etching, maybe one of the chaps in the CAD Section of the Forum on here could help. Just a thought Well, in a way I consider myself one of the chaps in the CAD section... I did the CAD work on the mineral wagon etchings, and I also made the CAD artwork for the etchings for this engine: This is the engine that will haul those mineral wagons, by the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
katwigan Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Oops sorry, note to self pay more attention when reading other threads. Kevan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 If you are still looking for an existing etched brass kit for a steel hopper wagon, try the Southwark Bridge range, still available through Roxey Mouldings, but confusingly listed under 4mm Carriage kits. On a different tack, and possibly more relevant to the other thread on wooden wagons, the use of a steel floor in a wooden wagon was quite common, but usually associated with road stone or tarmac companies, because the material being handled would stick to the wooden boards and be a devil to unload. One downside was that the tare weight of the wagon was considerably higher, the steel adding up to a ton to the unladen weight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 That is exactly the type of thing I am looking for! Is the body a resin casting, or is it injection moulded? And can I bother you with measuring the thickenss of the plastic hopper? By the way, I made an attempt many years ago (note the yellowing of the styrene!) to build a styrene version of the wagon: The hopper is in fact not so shabby, but the underframe leaves a lot to be desired! And hand-punching the rivets for a rake of wagons? I dont think so... For a start its in the raw, with a bit of paint on it all will look more in tune with each other. Then how can something being designed to be built in a batch compare with another object which is nothing short of a piece of art. I think someone has mentioned Archers rivets which may aid batch building, not too certain if 3D printing will cope economically with larger models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 For a start its in the raw, with a bit of paint on it all will look more in tune with each other. Then how can something being designed to be built in a batch compare with another object which is nothing short of a piece of art. I think someone has mentioned Archers rivets which may aid batch building, not too certain if 3D printing will cope economically with larger models I am thinking of this styrene model as a test piece, it is doubtful if i will ever finish it. If I do, it will be as a rather unique version of the wagon: This was the closest the Thamshavn Railway came to an armored train! It was built and operated by the Germans during WWII. Soldiers rode in the wagon to protect the trains from sabotage. But the Panzerwagon did not stop saboteurs from blowing up trains at two different occasions. The man in the picture is not an german soldier, it is one of the norwegian resistance fighters. The picture was taken after the war. But I digress. To cast or not to cast... I will probably pull out all the stops and build a couple of completely etched kits of the wagon, and after finishing them promptly declare that a large run of wagons with cast bodies will follow shortly... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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